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It is disappearing compared to how it used to be
yup, that's why the Subway in Larkhall isn't green like the rest of them
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Tell me that subway thing is a joke, please!!!
Where ever you go they are green, does the Green party have a different name as well?
No joke.
[url= http://news.scotsman.com/religiousissuesinscotland/Nothing-about-Larkhall-is-black.3322012.jp ]clicky[/url]
Just to andd a little fuel to the debate. My Mrs Steveoath and some of her colleagues have worked the nightshift A&E at the Southern General Hospital in Glasgow after old firm games and there are always more horrible attacks if Rangers lose. Make of that what you will...
Me - I support Morton. Crap 1st division football is the new black!
Crap 1st division football is the new black!
As an Arab, I'd have to say what an awesome performance that was by the Tinkies (Dundee) after the 25 point deduction, whatever the circumstances and the rights and wrongs.
Bigbutslimmer,shut it,fed up hearing (until last week) about the real 1st Div champions.
.. but they aren't. 44 points, add in the 25 and you get 69, which is 1 less than Dunfermline = Dunfermline as undisputed champions, well done Jimmy Mac. And that's not factoring in the run which they probably wouldn't have done without the kicking the SFL gave them.
And without asking "how many points would you have had if you not bought players you couldn't afford, so putting yourselves in that position in the first place, eh, sorry, you'll need to speak up a bit there?"
As others have said, it's very much a problem focused around the West of Scotland. I grew up in Aberdeen and only discovered a few years ago that the wee lady who lived next door to us and used to babysit was a Catholic - it just wasn't something that was considered worthy of note. In comparison, I remember how bizarre I found the whole thing when I moved down to Glasgow, especially the bizarrely revisionist history that is used to sustain both sides of the argument.
I'm not sure that the existence of Catholic schools is at the root of the problem per se, as in my experience as a youth worker down here, the ahistorical paranoia that is present in some of the young people we work with is perpetuated by parents and extended family, rather than in school. Our local secondary school, which accommodates most of the young people in the area, is Catholic, but they treat sectarianism in the same way as racism or homophobia in terms of the seriousness with which they respond to it.
I also think the clubs themselves have a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards sectarianism, in that they are both involved in programmes to combat it, yet neither side seem very willing to condemn sectarian violence in particularly strong terms - statements about it are usually fairly cagey.
In comparison, I remember how bizarre I found the whole thing when I moved down to Glasgow,
same here. I moved to Glasgow 10 or so years ago, I remember there was a couple of things you'd get asked in 'polite' conversation in the pub. The first was normally 'Do you work?' meaning what do you do with your time, odd to me in itself, the second would be 'what team do you support?' with direct religious connotations.
some areas are worse than others.
As an Aberdeen supporter Im sick of the pair of the Bigot bros , BOTH are as bad as each other . I've worked with loads of Celtic and Rangers fans and as usual 95 % of them are fine and are oin the whole 90 minute bigots. It's the other 5% that you need to worry about the kind that ruin rememberance day minute silences and on the other side send Bullets to current Celtic figureheads. Personally I dont care what they sing to each other as you will find pretty unsavoury songs directed at Man U and Liverpool fans regarding Munich , Heysel etc which are IMO way more out of order. The thing I hate about the old firm is the petty bickering that goes on in the media about what the other side has sung , done or decisions made for or against them . If one half wants to be Irish and the other English let them take there shite elsewhere and let the other teams get on with It.
On the subject of Hibs and Hearts they both have the sectarian elements but to be honest are so diluted and In the minority Its not worth even mentioning.
"Stand Free".
seosamh77 - MemberAs a DUFC fan,I am interested in you opinion on how singing republican songs in support of another country,and disturbing the minutes silence wherever you go(including Ibrox this year,cough,cough)does anything to suggest that you WANT to belong,as you put it.I remember the Celtic fans regailing us with the refrain of "Argentina" in the early 80's...I don't think they were referring to the quality of the football on offer.Likewise the fields of athenry is a little bit more than a quaint little folk ballad,is it not?
Outsiders like myself who experience the songs both sides of the old firm sing don't really think either of you should be complaining about the other."Your problems" as you call them before explaining exactly what Rangers problems are,are much more real than a media construct designed by a pro Rangers media bias.I think both your team and Rangers fuel each other.Don't get me wrong,if the respective fans of each team did not have each other to hate,it would be something else,scheme,gang etc,so the problem is not going away,although it has lessened (shipyards all closed)
I missed this earlier, couple of things, rangers broke their own minutes silence earlier last year. The ibrox disaster one was observed by both sets this year, and the before that for gerry neef was actually broken by a rangers fan shouting out FTP.
And what makes the fields more than a folk ballad? jebus i can understand peoples issues with the IRA songs but the fields of athenry? baffling. Also, you may view Ireland as a foreign country, i don't, loads of people in glasgow don't.. nothing wrong with that, similar to someone born in glasgow may not view ****stan or india as a foriegn country, it's in their cultural makeup and nothing wrong with it..
Excuse the ignorance but do Celtic fans follow/support Scotland?
And yet if he had been catholic, especially if he had been newly moved to the area or if he has gone to the catholic primary he would have got a place. West Lothian Council's Pupil Placement Guidance is quite clear "In the case of a RC school where there are more applications from those living within the catchment area than places priority will be given to those pupils who have been baptised in the RC Church."sounds more like a catchment area issue to me..number 37 on the waiting list.
you are right, that problem does occur too (and I've little sympathy for parents who change their religious association to suit their school needs!). You'll be pleased to hear that those parents also take legal action in West Lothian!tbh the opposite would probably be true, say the kid went to catholic primary and then wants to go to the non denom school that is bursting at the seems,
I'm not sure on that specific case. I know that sometimes when it has been "the otherway round" that the Council have been forced to find space - but i'm not sure if that is the Court that has forced it or if the council has backed down before it gets that far. However as I understand it whilst "Faith" schools are excluded from discrimination legislation, non-denominational schools are not (so a Catholic applying to a non-denom school has more rights than an aetheist applying to a Catholic school).what was the outcome of the case?
yes and no.. is the simple answer to that, you'll find alot less in the older generation imo, me personally, I don't bother about international fitba beyond the world cup and the euro champs, so it's a bit of a non issue! 😀Excuse the ignorance but do Celtic fans follow/support Scotland?
poly, i doubt we'll ever agree on it, so agree to disagree?
😯 I think poly's comments are quite compelling.....
to quote someone earlier in the thread...
wake yourself up !
Personally, I simply have no time for the bigotry and sectarian issues around footie and as a result, I've totally lost interest in football and I dont particularly like working at it. Grown men acting like weans and bleating about the other side.
There is no doubt that some areas are worse than others, and working in Saltcoats, I'd say that the general north Ayrshire area is one of the worst for people asking the "what team do you support" in the first few lines of a conversation.
My reply line is "I don't support football, I support Morton". 🙂
I think visually, the biggest local issue is the marches. I just think they are an entrenchment of long gone history and don't serve for much in modern times. The attitudes and change in atmosphere that they create is terrible.
And what makes the fields more than a folk ballad? jebus i can understand peoples issues with the IRA songs but the fields of athenry? baffling
because it is often sung with pro ira chants. I see once again you are trying to paint Celtic fan as whiter than white by criticising the actions of Rangers fans. Quite frankly your arguments are at about the same level as a petulant child who can only see the faults of others.
I'm sure plenty do, but the tartan army won't tolerate any old firm shite at Scotland matches - they take pride in their support of Scotland. So their's no visible sectarian element associated with the national side.Excuse the ignorance but do Celtic fans follow/support Scotland?
How they maintain this good order is a mystery of the modern world - assembling a few thousand young, male, ginger booze monsters in one place is usually a recipe for catastrophe. But they manage to pull it off with great aplomb.
The Ibrox disaster one was not observed,according to two people I work with,one from each colour of Glasgow (NOT Clyde AND QP.) Your little ditty about the free birds is a quaint folk song,just like Rangers singing about decorative and very old pieces of silk,or the British national anthem whenever they play anybody they view as Catholic,eg Dundee Hibs. Also,if you do not view/want NI as a seperate country to the UK,you are in a very small minority at Parkhead 😀
In 2009 during the mins silence they stood outside Falkirk's ground and sang a song about Bloody Sunday,something the fans spokesman refused to ("Condemn or Condone,but understood")during the silence.Before entering the ground.
[b]PSA PSA PSA PSA PSA[/b]
I received this email earlier - possibly of interest to some of you. Note: free, but ticketed event. The eventbrite website is currently down (Thursday 19:30) so don't know how that all works. Cheers, Kit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Scottish-Irish Group
The Scottish Centre for Diaspora Studies
School of History, Classics and Archaeology
University of Edinburgh
presents
An Evening of Debate and Discussion on
SECTARIANISM IN SCOTLAND: MYTH or REALITY?
Monday 23 May 2011 at 6.00pm
University of Edinburgh
The major recent controversy over the perceived issue of sectarian problems in Scotland has stimulated much national soul-searching, media comment, both at home and abroad, and political reactions. But the voice of most of those in the universities who study this problem from an academic perspective has been little heard. This event will bring together a number of scholars from the University of Edinburgh with different views on this complex subject in an evening discussion to be chaired by the distinguished journalist and commentator, Joyce McMillan.
The members of the panel are:
Professor Thomas M Devine http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/academic/tdevine/ , Sir William Fraser Professor of Scottish History and Palaeography and
Director of the Scottish Centre of Diaspora Studies
Mr Owen Dudley Edwards http://www.shca.ed.ac.uk/staff/hon_fellows/odudley-edwards/ , Honorary Fellow, School of History, Classics and Archaeology
Dr John Kelly http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/education/about-us/people/academic-staff?person_id=224&cw_xml=profile.php , Lecturer in Sport and Recreation Business Management, School of Education
Dr Michael Rosie http://www.sps.ed.ac.uk/staff/sociology/rosie_michael , Senior Lecturer in Sociology, School of Social and Political Science
In Part One the panel will be asked to address a series of key questions on this topic which are set out below. In Part Two a question and answer session will follow involving both audience and panellists.
* What is sectarianism?
* Scotland is the only jurisdiction where Irish Catholic and Protestants settled throughout the world which maintains an anti-sectarian policy at governmental level in 2011. Why?
* Is this issue essentially about football rivalry in the West of Scotland?
* ' Not sectarianism but blatant anti-Catholicism' (The Cardinal Archbishop of Edinburgh). The response of the panel?
* ' The Catholic [educational] system is the greatest example of institutional racism in the land ... and should be abolished forthwith' (Letter to The Scotsman, December, 2006). The response of the panel?
This is a free, but ticketed, event.
Given the current high-profile of this topic, demand for places is likely to be high. Early application is therefore strongly recommended in order to avoid disappointment.
Please book your place in advance at:
http://scottishcentrediasporastudiessectariainism.eventbrite.com/
The venue will be confirmed once demand has been assessed.
Details will be emailed to you on the email address given when registering.
I actually find the argument that catholic secondary schools are pointless as the religious education is barely evident, optional and most choose people not to partake in it by 2nd year far more compelling, rather than bringing up a few cases of people not getting in and claiming discrimination.I think poly's comments are quite compelling.....
to quote someone earlier in the thread...
wake yourself up
I agree with faith based primary's however, despite being non religious myself..
Tam Devine is the man,that will be a cracking lecture;If a bit far away.
Personally I think that religion should be removed from schools and left at home. That way, education can be based on the basic educations of reading writing maths ect, and any knowledge and understanding of religion or belief left to the parents to teach.
I'm thinking it was a perfect storm of a Hearts fan suddenly waking up to the realisation that his club's a disaster, and Neil Lennon being very punchable.
Who's painting celtic fans whiter than white? Not me anyhow, I've got myself into fights with celtic fans in the past after pulling them up over their behaviour. I'm well aware of our deficiencies as a support, more so than yourself i'd imagine.because it is often sung with pro ira chants. I see once again you are trying to paint Celtic fan as whiter than white by criticising the actions of Rangers fans. Quite frankly your arguments are at about the same level as a petulant child who can only see the faults of others.
What i am saying though is that is that the equal blame people try to give out is wrong.
Btw where have i denied anything about IRA songs, I sing them myself and make no apology for it.
Songs take on different meanings depending on who's singing them.
Why the **** I (as a Munster fan) have to sing the dirge about some fella from Galway escapes me.
Taking it on as a sporting anthem goes back (IIRC) to the World Cup in 1990. I think it had been a chart hit (no laughing at the back) around then in Ireland after being recorded by some popular folk singers. Lots of other Irish teams have taken it on (Or those with strong connections to Ireland). I believe it made it to the sub-continent this year for the Cricket World Cup.
When sung by Celtic fans, it is often punctuated by pro-IRA chants (between the lyrics). We all know that much. I'm not saying that every Celtic fan does it. But it's sullied now in the eyes of Rangers fans and anybody that can't be arsed with the bigotry.
I absolutely hate it. So. Much.
Rangers fans are far worse behaved than Celtic fans when travelling away from home. This is also a fact.
Garry_Lager -
How they maintain this good order is a mystery of the modern world - assembling a few thousand young, male, ginger booze monsters in one place is usually a recipe for catastrophe. But they manage to pull it off with great aplomb.
Pride in their reputation and self policing. anyone gets out of order the other fans will point out the error of their ways.
Who's painting celtic fans whiter than white? Not me anyhow,
Well I'll admit that you're not doing a very good job of it. It was the fact that in response to criticism about both sides of the old firm your first response was to say how dreadful Rangers fans are rather than address the deficiencies of Celtic fans
What i am saying though is that is that the equal blame people try to give out is wrong.
There's that childish argument again.
Btw where have i denied anything about IRA songs, I sing them myself and make no apology for it.
Astonishing, simply astonishing. And not in a good way.
seosamh77 - Member
IRA songs, I sing them myself and make no apology for it.
That makes you a sectarian bigot. You need to understand a bit of the history. This not a harmless folk song
When TJ and I agree, you know it's right.
No it doesn't and i'm comfotable enough in my knowledge of the history, hardly an expert, but i've a grasp of it and continually learning.That makes you a sectarian bigot. You need to understand a bit of the history. This not a harmless folk song
Please tell how does singing a song, for example the boys of the old brigade or the broad black brimmer make me a sectarian bigot? you'll find the words online via a google search, go on explain it to me.
seosamh77 - on this point:
"I actually find the argument that catholic secondary schools are pointless as the religious education is barely evident, optional and most choose people not to partake in it by 2nd year far more compelling,"
We can agree! Although I believe the level of education/instruction varies from school to school. In some cases so-called non-denominational schools are actually more actively pushing religious instruction (singing, praying, bible studies etc) harder than catholic schools! Whilst RE as a subject learning about all religions is optional (although I think many schools will still have a small compulsory element as part of their moral/citizenship type programmes); and almost every school in Scotland will have some sort of Christmas and Easter Service whilst many will still have some sort of ad hoc religious services/assemblies. Whilst participation at these has an "opt out" on parents, the choice to do so is in effect ear marking your child as a "minority" so they sit segregated from their peers along with the other minorities (Jews, Muslims, Jehovahs etc) - doing nothing particularly constructive with their time.
I am however rather intrigued by your closing remark. So you recognise there is almost no significant difference between what goes on in Scottish Catholic and Scottish Non-denominational schools from either a religious or a pedagogy perspective - why then do you think it is a good thing to segregate primary school pupils according to beliefs that at the age of 5 they almost certainly can't have properly considered and evaluated on their own?
You don't have to be a bigot to sing the songs, sometimes it suffices to be a sh*tehawk.
Its about the symbology. I suppose you might simply be ignorant. However as you claim not to be you must be a bigot.
Well I have just googled the songs and read the words. A celebration of the armed rebellion, killing of British Soldiers and murder with in the broad black brimmer a threat to take up arms again in vengeance.
Nice
Why>?Its about the symbology. I suppose you might simply be ignorant. However as you claim not to be you must be a bigot.
Definition of bigot:
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.
Go and look at the songs I mentions, where specifically does that apply?
I sing and listen to IRA and traditional Irish songs(I don't deferentiate btw) as it opens up to me a part of what I believe is my heritage and helps me understand some history which was never taught to me via main stream outlets, there is no intolerance of others or prejudice, yes i believe Ireland should be one country, I believe scotland should be independent, these things do not make me a bigot.
so what you now calling the entire free state bigots?Well I have just googled the songs and read the words. A celebration of the armed rebellion, killing of British Soldiers and murder with in the broad black brimmer a threat to take up arms again in vengeance.Nice
As I said earlier on , depsite despising both sides of the Old Firm I think they should both be aloud to sing what they want during the course of the 90 minutes . God knows Scotland football is boring enough without stopping chanting between fans , If they were aloud to sing as they pleased they wouldn't spend have there lives bitching about each other on Football talk shows.
I think they should both be aloud to sing what they want during the course of the 90 minutes
I don't.
Freedom of speech is fine, but inciting hatred is not.
Btw where have i denied anything about IRA songs, I sing them myself and make no apology for it.
Bigot or idiot.
(A protestant who supports Dundee United...the "supposed" catholic team in Dundee)
I have no idea how to explain this to you.
The two songs you mention are a symbol of the sectarianism of the Old Firm. They celebrate the murders of UK citizens and threaten more.
They are used as a way of asserting a cultural identity that is not a part of the UK and indeed is a celebration of the enemies of the UK .
They are used to threaten non catholics.
Edit - In the Irish republic (not the free state FFS) the context is different but they are still hardly nice sentiments.
Bigot or idiot.(A protestant who supports Dundee United...the "supposed" catholic team in Dundee)
The ignorance of the irish struggle is astounding at times, what religion has to do with the IRA i don't know.
(A non religious celtic fan, with a protestant mother and a catholic father, not that that matters but since you brought it up.)
You should read up a bit more..you have no idea how to explain it because you don't know what you are talking about.I have no idea how to explain this too you.The two songs you mention are a symbol or the sectarianism of the Old Firm. They celebrate the murders of UK citizens and threaten more.
They are used as a way of asserting a cultural identity that is not a part of the UK and indeed is a celebration of the enemies of the UK .
They are used to threaten non catholics.