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We have no influence over the BoE.
Technically you have more influence over govt and economic policy as part of the UK than you would in the EU. You may not think that, but that's just your anti-english opinion talking. As I have said many times before, Scotland leaving the UK makes as little, or realistically a lot less sense than the UK leaving the EU. All the arguments for and against brexit apply to Scottish Independence. I get why lots of scots want to leave, just as I understood why lots of English wanted to leave the EU, but it would be a daft thing to do, especially given what we now know about brexit.
I don’t disagree but if you think Scotland would have more influence over the ECB I think you’re looking through EU-tinted specs. The ECB is as – if not more – intransigent as the BoE. They were prepared to drive an entire country into the sea and impoverished million in order to maintain their control over Greece. The only country who has real influence over the ECB is Germany.
There's lots of ways you can either join the EU and not adopt the Euro (Sweden, for example) or build closer ties without becoming a full member (EFTA, for example).
imo, the best bet for Scotland would be it's own currency and EFTA membership initially and then see where to go from there but it's an incredibly complex question that doesn't really suit single line answers.
I do wish yo would listen and try to understand what it looks like from north of the border
i get your point. Its sloppy shorthand but Scotland has zero influence over UK policy.
Technically you have more influence over govt and economic policy as part of the UK than you would in the EU.
Simply incorrect. In the EU we would get to be represented . In the UK our representatives are ignored and sidelined
your anti-english opinion talking
I am not anti english in anyway. Im effing english by birth.
Once again someone who has no understanding is lecturing us on what we have and getting it wrong
give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy. Just one example
It’s awful to read, it’s actually making me feel sick to my stomach tbh.
That's how I feel whenever you say Scotland is the equivalent of just another English region.
Technically you have more influence over govt and economic policy as part of the UK than you would in the EU.
Cool, we have a veto over UK policy.
You may not think that, but that’s just your anti-english opinion talking.
I think that's just your anti-EU opinion talking.
but that’s just your anti-english opinion talking
He's English isn't he? And that's Tosh anyway. The UK government has chosen to ignore the requests of the Scottish government, and at times avoided even meeting with them. It is the UK government that sets the parameters that the BofE work within, it currently has nothing to do with the Scottish government. How people in Scotland vote now has no effect on UK policy because that's what the UK government has decided. So we South of the border can chose a government that ignores the votes and needs of Scotland. They can't do the same to us. There is the power imbalance, and it's enshrined in UK law, further clarified this week.
I think you are right. Sturgeon herself said the same years ago
Thanks. I though she had too, but couldn't quickly find the quote.
One thing to remember tho is in the last campaign when people actually got to hear the arguement yes went from 30% to 45%. I would expect the next campaign to show a similar rise in the yes vote.
Yes, you are right and that is a powerful counter-argument.
It does feel different (to me at least) now though, which is where I started from. In 2014 I think we felt a bit more comfortable and people were willing to risk a bit of short term pain for longer term gain. Now it feels as though a lot more people are suffering and realising just what "short term pain" actually means and it will be harder to get them to vote for more of it.
That’s how I feel whenever you say Scotland is the equivalent of just another English region.
Why?
It's the generalisation of the English as somehow one homogenous group that has some kind of great democratic privilege that I really object to. Scotland is very much a country, but it's not a separate country. Clearly not historically or culturally the same as an English region, but it is a part of the UK.
So we South of the border can chose a government that ignores the votes and needs of Scotland. They can’t do the same to us. There is the power imbalance, and it’s enshrined in UK law, further clarified this week.
Again this comes back to how important you think that line on the map is. Why is there a 'people of Scotland' and a 'people of England' but not a 'people of the UK?' Because we live in the UK the political system is a UK one. That's not really avoidable is it?
This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it's 'us vs them'. For me, it's 'us'.
give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy. Just one example
Devolution?
And how does devolution influence UK policy?
I am not anti english in anyway. Im effing english by birth.
Lazy language. What I should have said was 'anti-UK govt' opinion. 🙂
give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy.
Apart from having a bunch of Scottish PMs?
Apart from creating the third largest party?
By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn't have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?
It’s the generalisation of the English as somehow one homogenous group that has some kind of great democratic privilege that I really object to.
Why?
When someone says 'Scotland voted No in 2014' I understand that it's a shorthand to say the majority of people voted No. I don't get upset because the Yes voters aren't being singled out and identified as not being the same as the No voters.
It's the same no matter what decision is being taken. You say, 'The US elected Donald Trump' and everyone understands that not every American (or even the majority of Americans) voted for Trump.
Honestly, it's a shorthand that's so universally accepted it's very difficult for me to remember that you personally get upset by it and make allowances.
This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.
For me, 'us' is Europe. For you, it's Britain.
This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.
Now explain how your choice of "us" isn't nationalism?
I don't want the UK to break up. Current attitudes towards Scotland, and not just from our politicians, isn't about working towards making the UK work with Scotland remaining part of it... it is about relying on dominance of the UK by England to keep Scotland within it. That can only end one way if it carries on in my opinion, and that's a break up... a break up I don't want.
Now it feels as though a lot more people are suffering and realising just what “short term pain” actually means and it will be harder to get them to vote for more of it.
I can see that reasoning... that it would make many reject or want to delay a choice as regard independence. I feel it could cause the exact opposite... a lot of this pain has been the choice of the UK government, when the Scottish government proposed compromises to limit/reduce the pain while still honouring a choice made by the UK that wasn't the choice of voters North of the border. No compromise. No listening. No consideration. Scotland told to shut up and take it.
This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.
This statement encapsulates your lack of understanding of how scots nationalism works
its not "anti" anything
its not them V us
Its about us indeed - us being the people of scotland.
its about Scotland wanting to seek its own way ion the world on a path that is blocked by westminster. A path of progressive policies, a path of engaging with the outside world in a spirit of cooperation including with england. An outward and forward looking vision. Its about self determination
And how does devolution influence UK policy?
You asked for an example of Scotland influencing Westminster policy...Westminster had a policy to devolve some power to Scotland, Wales and NI.....I would imagine that this policy was heavily influenced by Scotland.....or are you saying the Scottish Parliament was foisted on you against Scotland's wishes?
give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy. Just one example
What short memories we have. It wasn't long ago that we were obsessed with the 'West Lothian Question'. Many of those issues still exist today but for some reason it's not a problem.
It’s awful to read, it’s actually making me feel sick to my stomach tbh.
Excellent - now you can empathise with how millions of Scots felt when they were encouraged to vote to retain the Union on the basis of membership of the EU, the Vow, and greater devolution, only to get shafted at every turn, and now be told that we have no agency over our own future.
PS you keep referring to TJ's 'anti-English' rhetoric - you do know he's an Englishman living in Edinburgh?
By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?
And once again, we're back to 'Scotland is just the same as any other region in England.'
By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?
all they have to do is elect a majority of MPs for the west country national party ( there actually is a cornish independence movement) and show they want independence and then they should be able to have it. I see no issue with that and would be quite happy with it
Apart from having a bunch of Scottish PMs?
Apart from creating the third largest party?
Who are ignored and have zero influence. No power at all
last time I know of that Scots MPs actually had any influence in Westminster was when they voted down the labour government in the 70s
And once again, we’re back to ‘Scotland is just the same as any other region in England.’
Why are you denigrating the historic claim of the Cornish to have their own nation? 😉
What short memories we have. It wasn’t long ago that we were obsessed with the ‘West Lothian Question’. Many of those issues still exist today but for some reason it’s not a problem
This
Why are you denigrating the historic claim of the Cornish to have their own nation?
What's Cornish independence polling at right now?
Dazh
And when did the west lothian question actually result in any influence?
Name one bill that was passed that only effects England that would not have passed without the vote of Scots MPs
I think you're being deliberately obtuse now, TJ.
What short memories we have. It wasn’t long ago that we were obsessed with the ‘West Lothian Question’. Many of those issues still exist today but for some reason it’s not a problem
It was 'solved'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_votes_for_English_laws
However, it was found the solution was a pain in the arse and not worth it because, in reality, it's a useful stick for English MPs to beat Scotland and NI (and very occasionally Wales) with but not a problem in the real world.
And the reason it's not a problem in the real world is because the devolved nations have so little influence their decisions seldom affect the decisions of English MPs.
I am not. the "west lothian question" is a good one that needs an answer. However its purely theoretical
So I would like you to name a single bill where the west lothian question actually mattered
So that would be one bill that effects england only but only got passed because of the votes of scots MPs
Edit - must be post devolution as well
Do you really think that voting on an actual Bill is where the influence (of any MP) happens?
But I'll just lazily post a quote from that Wiki article that Brucewee posted:
During the 2000s a number of pieces of legislation which affected only or mainly England were passed by the UK Parliament, although the votes cast by MPs were such that the legislation would not have been passed if only the votes cast by MPs representing English constituencies had been counted.[2]
its about Scotland wanting to seek its own way ion the world on a path that is blocked by westminster. A path of progressive policies, a path of engaging with the outside world in a spirit of cooperation including with england. An outward and forward looking vision. Its about self determination
Very much this for me too. I would have to accept that there is an element of the pro-independence vote that is anti-English though and I don't feel happy being on the same side of the argument as those people. But that's democracy for you I guess.
Ultimately I think it comes down to whether you think the people of Scotland would choose a different path to the rest of the UK. I happen to think they would. I also think that in doing so they would provide an example to the rest of the UK of the benefits of going down that path, which could result in what I would see as positive change for the rest of the UK too. But that's all speculation at this stage.
Good one Twodogs. I had forgotton that.
of course that is Scots labour MPs obby fodder voting with the Westminster labour government when there was a rebellion in the HOC so its not what I was thinking of when a westminster government proposed something and the scots were able to stop it or When Scots MPs wanted something and Westminster refused but it fits the criteria
Apart from creating the third largest party?
By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?
Molgrips I'll take this in two parts .Since becoming the 3rd largest party, the mps of that party are frequently jeered at, humiliated, and ignored. I cannot think of one SNP bill which has gotten through in westminster in that period.
Secondly the government of Scotland in particular but of all the UK is much too centralised it is damaging the relationship between the centre of government in south east England and the other areas so why should'nt Devon and Cornwall secede or claim an element of self governance.
Secondly the government of Scotland in particular but of all the UK is much too centralised it is damaging the relationship between the centre of government in south east England and the other areas so why should’nt Devon and Cornwall secede or claim an element of self governance.
No arguments there. The devolution settlement for Scotland and Wales has brought up this very question across the UK and I think it will progress slowly over the years if independence doesn't happen.
Re Scottish influence - with that many SNP MPs it's not hard to see how they could hold the balance of power in a parliament. Or even if they weren't all SNP, the total number of Scottish seats is significant.
Twodogs
thats the sort of thing I love this forum for. One cannot get away with sloppy language, thinking or writing.
to refine the point I was trying to make - ask it as "When in the last 20 years have Scot as MPs been able to change UK government policy?"
thats the sort of thing I love this forum for. One cannot get away with sloppy language, thinking or writing.
I'm a bit confused about which one of my huge number of brilliant and insightful posts you mean now 😂
The one where you skewered me on the west lothian question 🙂
I could feel the burn
During the 2000s a number of pieces of legislation which affected only or mainly England were passed by the UK Parliament, although the votes cast by MPs were such that the legislation would not have been passed if only the votes cast by MPs representing English constituencies had been counted.[2]
Is the "mainly" there because England has the largest (by far) population so ANY legislation impacting all the UK would impact England "mainly"?
Also, how many of the votes were due to 3-line whips and/or cabinet MP's voting with the Govt?
Dunno....how many?
The one where you skewered me on the west lothian question 🙂
I could feel the burn
😂
What are you basing that on? My understanding is the majority of young voters are Yes voters.
Recent polls.
You sound very certain. Again, what are you basing that on?
The TJ method. You missed the joke.
@molgrips I'm certain that Scottish Labour, Scottish Libdems and Scottish Tories have an agreement not to vote with the SNP under any circustances. Not sure if it applies to their UK counterparts
Re Scottish influence – with that many SNP MPs it’s not hard to see how they could hold the balance of power in a parliament. Or even if they weren’t all SNP, the total number of Scottish seats is significant.
Labour don't like to side with the SNP?
Wee woman in work was telling me how much she regrets her No vote in 2014, after the last 8 years + yesterday's ruling.
Recent polls.
links?
The TJ method. You missed the joke.
I did miss the joke. In fact, I'm still missing it completely.
Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?
Labour Libdem and Tory work with varying degrees of informal alliance in Scotland particularly in local politics
Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?
Labour in Scotland have a deep-seated antipathy towards the SNP, and seem to either have no idea how repellent this is to left-leaning voters like myself, or are so consumed by their hatred that they don’t care. It’s been that way for years, and is both incoherent and toxic, leading to them actively encouraging voters to support Tory candidates to try and prevent SNP candidates winning. It’s what helped Theresa May back into power by a narrow margin - that suddenly uptick in Tory MPs from Scotland was enabled by Labour’s encouragement.
It’s why I stopped supporting Labour over a decade ago.
Labour in Scotland have a deep-seated antipathy towards the SNP, and seem to either have no idea how repellent this is to left-leaning voters like myself, or are so consumed by their hatred that they don’t care. It’s been that way for years, and is both incoherent and toxic, leading to them actively encouraging voters to support Tory candidates to try and prevent SNP candidates winning. It’s what helped Theresa May back into power by a narrow margin – that suddenly uptick in Tory MPs from Scotland was enabled by Labour’s encouragement.
It’s why I stopped supporting Labour over a decade ago.
While I live here, Central-belt 'politics' are a bit lost on me, are Labour after the 'Rangers' cohort as their Scottish 'Red Wall' equivalent?
And agree, I voted Labour all my life in England, but I've supported the SNP for the +10 years I've been in Scotland.
“When in the last 20 years have Scot as MPs been able to change UK government policy?”
@tjagain - I know many people think Gordon Brown wasn't the greatest prime minister this country has seen, but I think it would be going some to suggest that he, or any of the Labout MPs in the Brown/Blair years had no significant influence on UK gov policy. Presumably during the coalition years the Lib Dem scots continued to have a strong influence, and tory scots will have done since (especially in periods with tight majorities).
Even from the opposition benches the SNP must have had some success in influencing policy - for otherwise surely the 2014 referendum would never have happened, and certainly "the Vow" would not have come about without it, which whilst mostly a load of nonsense did result in some small refinements to the Scotland Act.
I support the concept of Scotland finding its own way in the world - but we need to be careful if we say we do not have any democratic voice. Clearly we do. Everyone in the UK should be concerned that democracy doesn't work for them. Its wrong to suggest that even a back bench MP in an opposition party has no ability to change government policy - that's not the same as many policies they don't like getting voted through anyway.
Do you really think Brown was looking after Scotland or making policy to suit England. He as chancellor and POM saddled us with absurd policy that no one north of the border wanted. See ERI for a prime example
Edit: - OK I'll accept my point was hyperbolic and as above it should have been " Scots MPs have no influence to vote down UK government policy"
Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?
In Scotland we have had the labour / tory non aggression pact that resulted in the tories gaining 10 seats at westminster that resulted in May being able to save her administration and resulted in Brexit.
We have labour doing deals with the tories on local councils to freeze out the SNP to the point labour kicked two councilors out of the party for refusing to do a deal with the Tories to freeze out the SNP
WE have the absurd spectacle of labour voting aginst the SNP i holyrood when what the SNP were proposing was the same as london labour policy - see "the bain principle
links?
I’ll see what I can find but I picked it up from news snippets last night.
Looks like I either misheard or they were selective in their reporting.
My apologies
I did miss the joke. In fact, I’m still missing it completely.
It’s a paraphrase if it’ll take decades for the UK to get back into the EU but Scotland wouldn’t take long at all.
It’s a paraphrase if it’ll take decades for the UK to get back into the EU but Scotland wouldn’t take long at all.
Because of political will. thats the differnce. Scottish government wants to return. EU want us back.
UK government does not want to return nor does the UK opposition.
UK government does not want to return nor does the UK opposition.
The current Government doesn’t no, opposition can’t make their minds up. Regardless the claims of decades are never happening aren’t exactly certain.
Oh and while you’re. Didn’t you once renounce your English on here and claim you recognise as Scottish?
Of course its not certain - its an opinion
How can I renounce my ancestry? I have never tried to. Scotland is my home but I am English born of English descent with an English name and accent
Of course its not certain – its an opinion
Exactly. It holds no ground.
No, I thought you said you see yourself as Scottish now not English. My mistake. Anyway I think you’re anti-English government, not anti-English. But it’s a Tory government so I’m cool with that.
Its all rather complicated and nuanced Drac so I get your confusion. Identity on this archipelago often is
When pushed I describe myself as "British of English birth and descent but Scotland is my home". That makes me "one of the people of Scotland" because its my home but I can never be "scottish" the ethnic group. I feel no allegiance to England at all now and IMO that is not because I have left England but because England has left me. England now is a very different place from when I last lived there 35 years ago and a much less nice place.
I visited my roots and the nearest I have to somewhere my family comes from when I was on my big bike ride - a small village in Shropshire.
I know many folk of many nationalities who are a part of the "People of Scotland" English, danish, polish,dutch and greek
No I get that.
In similar stance. I moved away from my home town over 27 years ago. I no longer recognise the town, it’s full Tory town and lot of people who moved into are a bit above themselves.
Can’t change where I’m from and I wouldn’t anyway. The town I live in now is very much my home and so much like my birth town was.
I can’t say that the Scottish government are swaying me towards independence at the moment with their stance on public sector pay deals. Kinda feel like it’s ‘come meet the new boss, same as the old boss’. The purported idea of some social nirvana under a scottish government is looking rather shaky imho.
Thats back to the problem of being unable to raise money. Tax raising powers are very limited and austerity from Westminster means less money to Scotland as well
Public sector pay is a huge part of the Scottish government budget so if they give better pay deals then that extra money has to be cut from other budgets
As a nurse I was paid slightly better in Scotland than in England because they had given slightly higher pay deals than in England
So while the tories say "there is no more money" and its bogus because they can raise more money by taxation or borrowing the scottish government actually means it as they have no way of raising significantly more money. Tax raising powers are very limited and deliberately designed to be a poisoned chalice / not to be able to be used in the way the scottish government would like
That is actually a good arguement for independence as post independence the scottish government would be able to raise more money in the way independent countries can. Whether they would is a differnt issue.
And yet when it comes to tone, you can feel the SNP’s passion for independence. They do all they can to force Westminster’s hand. Pay and conditions for the public sector and there’s nothing they can do and they don’t look overly concerned about it.
If the SNP want to fund higher pay deals they can raise income tax. But it won't be popular.
As for not being able to borrow.On balance good. Passing the problem on to the next generation isn't the answer.
NOt true IME. As I said a few years ago the nurses pay body recommended IIRC 3%. Tories said no and gave 1% to English nurses. In Scotland we got our 3%. I was paid a few hundred more than an english nurse
Also in Scotland if you earn bellow the national average you pay slightly less tax. Above the national average you pay slightly more
Numerous examples of this sort of thing over the years
If the SNP want to fund higher pay deals they can raise income tax. But it won’t be popular.
Very limited powers to do so and they have used the powers. Its been quite popular. One holyrood election was faught on this. SNP vote went up on a tax raising manifesto
Holyrood does not have the power to raise income tax by enough to fund a decent pay rise.
I was born in Scotland and have lived and worked in Scotland most of my adult life.
However, I - like others - are challenged by - presumably ultra - nationalists who, at every turn, seek to create division, demonise others 'The English', accuse those of us who are happy being part of the UK as "Not a real Scot" or "A traitor". Additionally a FM who claims to talk on behalf of all Scots - when she patently does not.
This given current and recent events related to division completely turns me off.
However, I also acknowledge the challenges the UK has as a whole - a political system which requires reform, recent blatant lies, corruption, etc.
Surely recognition of the fundamental issues facing the country and trying to build positive alliances to deal with those is hugely more positive than yet more division.
Plus the current UK and Scottish governments really need to show me a real path to stability, meaningful employment and as much prosperity as it is possible for as many as possible.
Taxpayers in Scotland earning less than £30k pay £21.62 less tax than an English taxpayer.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/changes-scottish-income-tax-2022-2023-factsheet/
Woohoo! Let's complicate the tax system with an additional band so we can boast many Scottish taxpayers pay less. True £21.62 less.
Playing political games with the tax system.
Additionally a FM who claims to talk on behalf of all Scots – when she patently does not.
Is that any different from what the UK prime minster does?
Bams everywhere for sure and we have our share but you do realise that actually the unionist parties talk about the SNP talking about independence far more than the SNP does? In the runnup to the last holyrood election independence was talked about by unionist parties far more than the SNP. there was some sad person went thru every speech and the other parties individually talked about independence many more times.
IRC - thats the limitations of the scots tax raising powers and its not an additional band / complication or cost.
TJ,
Interesting that you should defend the FM by pointing towards the PM. So, would you agree that the FM suffers from the same untruths as the PM? If so that is great as it suggests to me that you are more open minded than some who seem to believe that the FM does walk on water and can do no wrong and hence a reasoned discussion can be had.
I would sincerely appreciate your sense of what masterplan the SNP have in place to assure those they claim to represent will be no worse off or even better off than current? What sectors will assure meaningful employment for all who want it, with good income to allow meaningful tax income to support health, education, pensions, defence, etc, etc. Given the O&G industry appears to have fallen out of SNP favour in order to have an alliance with the greens? Seriously, what is the master plan to convince me that independence will be better? Thanks.
So, would you agree that the FM suffers from the same untruths as the PM?
Not to the same extent
I think Sturgeon a capable politician and a leader far above any other UK politician. Apart from anything else she actually looks like she believes what she says and is prepared to both admit mistakes and accept blame. However I find her and the SNP in general too centralizing and too much control freakery and they are poor on environmental issues
As for policies - I suggest the SNP website a good place to look
I expect the SNP to fall apart fairly quickly after independence. All political parties are a broad church but the SNP is far broader than most from the Socialism of Mhari Black to the tartan tory of Fergus Ewing so I don't expect the SNP to hold power for long afterwards
Post independence we will have a government that reflects the wishes of the people of Scotland. One that believes in close links with our neighbours, one that believes in redistribution of wealth. One that follows a greenish line ( important to me and not well understood by the SNP) I expect coalitions of the centre left and greens to be our main governments seeing as over 80% of the scots electorate vote for socuial democratic parties ( if labour can still be considered such) Thats good enough for me.
voting for independence and wanting independence is not the same thing as wanting an SNP government
I expect the SNP to fall apart fairly quickly after independence
Makes you wonder why they'd be in a hurry for a referendum eh?
Cynic 🙂
If they don't have one ( or some other vote) soon Sturgeon will be out on her ear and the party will split.
As Tony Benn said all political careers end in failure but do you think Sturgeon would rather her political epitaph to be " She failed to get independence split the party and wasted the chance" or " she succesfully got independence"
I just do not buy the idea that she is deliberately dragging her feet for selfish reasons. It makes no sense at all
Benz
If you want some already enacted p9olicies that make folkslives better there are a few
Free prescriptions
End to bridge tolls
End to hospital parking charges where they are able to do so
Free University education
bedroom tax alleviation
Bringing assessment for illhealth benefits back in house and thus reducing the number of spurious refusals
bettter ( what little they can do) protection for refugees
land reform act including facilitating and financing community buyouts
Just a few off the top of my head
Do you really think Brown was looking after Scotland or making policy to suit England. He as chancellor and POM saddled us with absurd policy that no one north of the border wanted. See ERI for a prime example
Whether the policy was good for Scotland or not wasn't the objection, you were suggesting Scots get no say and have had no ability to set policy for 20 years - that was planely absurd. By the same argument no U.K. politician has been able to influence U.K. policy because clearly their policies are stupid and not in the UKs best interests!
Indeed as I accepted it was hyberbolic and poorly written
What I should have said is that Scots MPs and the scots government are unable to alter UK government policy if that policy acts against the interests of Scotland.
There is so much UK government policy from both labour and tory that acts against the interests of Scotland and there is nothing we can do about it.
One example - the rigged electricity "market" with the access charges. This stifles our renewable electricty generation.
Or the big one - brexit. Scotland voted against brexit and had it imposed upon us
Now the latest following the court decision.
Scotland is treated as subservient to the rest of the UK. the UK union is supposed to be a union of equals and voluntary. Its obvious now its neither. If you have no way of leaving its not voluntary and if you can have policies imposed from the undemocratic Westminster government against the wishes of the democratically elected Scots parliament its not a partnership of equals
Or you can take the response to covid.
Holyrood recognised the need to lockdown earlier than westminster but was unable to do so because they have no access to the funds needed. That cost lives
TJ, how much money do you reckon gets wasted on free prescriptions? I'm all for free prescriptions for seriously poorly folk but a load of people take the mick, paracetamol on prescription for example...its 50p for a pack! Need moisturiser for your newborn? Get it on prescription. Would be curious to find out how much it costs the NHS.
What I should have said is that Scots MPs and the scots government are unable to alter UK government policy if that policy acts against the interests of Scotland.
but that is still hyperbole - they have the power, they may elect not to do so, but that is how democracy works - what you want is a Scottish right of veto over any policy affecting Scotland. Thats not consistent with how the 1706/1707 acts of Union were agreed.
There is so much UK government policy from both labour and tory that acts against the interests of Scotland and there is nothing we can do about it.
I think there is - the same as politicians in the midlands who don’t like a particular policy affecting them - they have to appeal to the wider political landscape and explain why bad for the midlands is bad for the country, Scotland needs to explain why bad for Scotland is bad for the whole of the UK. There is short sightedness on all sides. It’s not infeasible that at the next Westminster election Scottish MPs will hold the balance of power.
Scotland is treated as subservient to the rest of the UK. the UK union is supposed to be a union of equals and voluntary. Its obvious now its neither. If you have no way of leaving its not voluntary and if you can have policies imposed from the undemocratic Westminster government against the wishes of the democratically elected Scots parliament its not a partnership of equals
where does this notion of partnership of equals come from? It’s not in the 1706/1707 acts, there is no “termination clause” in the partnership. Short sighted? Or the strength that held the Union together for so long.
you see - whilst I am pro-Indy, a positive and successful independence needs overwhelming public support because not everything will be great. We don’t have that public support at the moment and so I think Westminster is probably doing us a favour - we all know a 52-48 vote either way is chaos. Rather than fighting with WM over if and when - they really need to be addressing the issues half the population have with the proposal. I would have been happy if the SC had said another referendum was within the powers of the SP but I would be happier to see negotiations between the parties at Westminster that might allow a referendum but also cover the “what if it’s NO again” scenario - how do we fix the U.K. political landscape for a world where Scotland will then have twice voted to stay.
the rhetoric that Scotland doesn’t have democracy or is an oppressed state might sit well with the Indy camp - but they are not the people you need to convince.
Scotland needs to explain why bad for Scotland is bad for the whole of the UK.
WRT the electricity market I think both the SG and industry lobby groups have been doing that but falling on deaf ears.
I agree though that the rhetoric used isn't convincing anyone that needs to be.
spooky211
Free Member
TJ, how much money do you reckon gets wasted on free prescriptions? I’m all for free prescriptions for seriously poorly folk but a load of people take the mick, paracetamol on prescription for example…its 50p for a pack! Need moisturiser for your newborn? Get it on prescription. Would be curious to find out how much it costs the NHS.
Ask and ye shall receive, although the data is only up to 2015/16.
£10.7 million spent on paracetamol, which is 0.97% of total prescription spend
Thats not consistent with how the 1706/1707 acts of Union were agreed
Yes, because nothing has changed since 1706/07
That's as shallow an argument as American's using the "right to bear arms" to justify their gun obsession despite the fact that was from a time when muskets were cutting edge technology