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Also of course there are some who feel insulted that we want to choose our own path and that path is different to the right wing xenophobic path england has chosen. I mean how dare we?🤣
Ill try an analogy
You live in suburbia in a semi detached house. You get on ok with the neighbors and both of you are in the neighborhood watch. You rub along well enough
Your neighbor starts drinking too much and starts to behave erratically blaming everyone around him for his troubles
You try to help and support him but it falls on deaf ears and his behaviour becomes harder and harder to deal with.
At some point you have to withdraw from the neighbourhood watch as his paranoid behaviour blaming everyone else for his woes begins to impact on your own mental health
He then blames you for the collapse of the neighbourhood watch.
For me it’s very simple: the people of England don’t vote the way I (and the majority of Scotland) vote. As such, I feel the interests of Scotland would be better served if Scotland’s government were to be independent.
Pretty much sums it up for me as well.
Nationalism/Patriotism doesn't even register.
@tjagain what about the neighbour's lovely wife and kids, who your family get along well with, who you've abandoned to his drinking and abuse?
Pretty horrible analogy there csb.
However I'd have to ask how it helps if we continue to allow the abuser to abuse us as well?
It was tj's analogy, i was just reflecting what it feels like to be stuck in England with the his abusive drunkard.
If the whole street is full of abusive drunkards then do I have more of an obligation to my neighbours family just because they are my neighbours or should I seek to treat all the families equally?
Ah well my apologies for my error in attributing the analogy to you.
However it is still the case that England will by and large get the government it votes for.
I'm Scottish by birth and family on my father's side. Mum was born in Tipperary and I've more family in Ireland but although I hold Irish citizenship and will soon have an Irish passport I don't feel Irish (don't even really support the rugby team unless they're playing the ABs). I feel Scottish first and European second (hence the passport). Have lived in Essex and Surrey but didn't ever feel settled.
CSB
I was troubled by that before the last referendum and voted yes with a heavy heart. Mrs TJ voted no for that reason. Post brexit? An easy yes
Apologies if the analogy was poor. Trying to find a way to explain it to molegrips
If the whole street is full of abusive drunkards
Lazy stereotyping of all English as tory voting brexiteers, you know better than that.
I'm torn too. Half Scottish and would get my EU passport out of it. But detest the insinuation that those in England are all the same.
No one has made that insinuation. Anti independence types keep cliaming we say it. No one has actually done so
Well Scotroutes did quite a good job at it up there.
Nope. Not at all. He was referring to why do we have to help.our neighbours but not those down the street
No. I was suggesting that I'm no more responsible for folk in England than I am for any other country in Europe or, indeed, the world. It was you that chose how to extend the original analogy. I'd already made the point previously using Norway (another neighbour) as an example. Just scroll back a bit.
For me it’s very simple: the people of England don’t vote the way I (and the majority of Scotland) vote. As such, I feel the interests of Scotland would be better served if Scotland’s government were to be independent.
Yep pretty much me too. Thats my general opinion on the concept, the practicalities, the financial implications etc alter to a greater or lesser extent the strength of my conviction to yes or no.
I'm less worried about England voting for the tories and being being right wing nut jobs blah de blah de blah. and more worried about the fact they keep voting for people who are quite open about the fact they're going to continue to take the piss.
I'd not vote for SNP on the principal that they like flag shaggers everywhere are not to be trusted.
Lazy stereotyping of all English as tory voting brexiteers, you know better than that.
I’m torn too. Half Scottish and would get my EU passport out of it. But detest the insinuation that those in England are all the same.
I think a few are blue sky thinking with Scotland and how they are, having lived in Glasgow, that was possibly the worst place i've stayed for xenophobic and sectarian crap, such an insular place, and i am Scottish, stayed in the central belt and Perth as well, they're not as bad, but i think a few folk thinking Scotland is some left utopia are probably around the Edinburgh area!
It's the same down south, stayed in a few places in the south of England, there are vast differences between areas, some places i'll just not live around, some areas i prefer to stay, politics isn't the biggest draw for me in this, again it's the people and way of life.
I still read the bit you said and I quoted as you doubling down on Tj's drunken neighbour analogy as all English being undesirable drunkards who need abandoning. Sorry.
Half Scottish and would get my EU passport out of it.
How would this work? Should Scotland become independent and if (which I think is a significant if) it joined the EU - who would be entitled to what passports. How long would you have to have lived in Scotland to be given a Scottish passport?
Sorry, I know that a lot of people know far more about the practicalities than I do. But, things like this get me wondering.
Gauss. To be decided. Everyone living here for sure. Ex pats or those with a scots granny? To be decided.
Ex pats
What is an ‘ex pat’ in these circumstances? There are huge numbers of people, born in Scotland, who live and work in England. Many of them, who no doubt regard themselves as Scottish. And again, many of them intending to move back to Scotland as circumstances allow. Do they need to ‘rush back’, to be on the safe side?
I’m back to - it’s just not worth all the hassle.
Everyone living here for sure.
Also, how do you know ‘for sure’? Are there international laws on this?
Edit: Now, even I think that all sounds a bit silly. But, there are just so many things to consider.
I have some sympathy with ex-pats and I can understand the concerns of those who think they might get an EU passport through the granny rule or whatever.Fundamentally I think independence is an issue to be decided by those who live in Scotland at the time of the referendum. Sorry ex pats and 2nd home owners you don't get a vote.
For me it’s very simple: the people of England don’t vote the way I (and the majority of Scotland) vote. As such, I feel the interests of Scotland would be better served if Scotland’s government were to be independent
You could take that analagy right down to local council level - “the people of Council X voted a Tory council in, we as a neighbouring Labour council Y now want to dissasociate ourselves from Council X and have nowt more to do with them!”. “In fact we’ll twin with Council Z 1000 miles away”. 😀
The franchise question is interesting . There is a school of thought in nationalist circles which holds that they lost indyref because non natives were allowed to vote. So perhaps the "middle class colonialists" will not get a vote next time
https://scotlandspeaks.com/canongate-wall-and-the-indyref-franchise-question-459
tjagain
Full Member
You claimed there was a British culture. But you cant say what it is
There is a british culture, nothing to say that culture has to be run as one political culture. Bit of diversity in that respect won't be a bad thing. imo.
What is british culture then please? The constituent countries share some cultural ideas yes but there is no british culture that i can see.
Muffin man. The difference is Scotland is a county with its own culture legal system and ethos. Its not a region of England no matter how much you wish it to be
tjagain
Full Member
What is british culture then please?
Whatever the output of scottish, english and welsh culture is.
Britain as a geographical entity is a thing. 😆
The franchise for the referendum will be the same as before. Thise who have made it their home.
Including non natives as we dont make that distinction. Everyone who has made it their home is one of the people of Scotland
Inclusivity remember
Unlike the eu referendum which exluded those who live here but dont hold uk passports and included uk passport holders outside of the uk
Sorry - I’m just dropping pebbles into the pond! 😀
Scotland can do what it wants - I have no real view either way. As a midlander I imagine it would have zero impact on my life if the union broke up. But for Scots in Scotland I can see the importance.
The Scots I know who live in England seem mainly for the union though. So perhaps the SNP need to change the voting rules as mentioned above to get the result they want.
I would miss the blue in union flag! 🤣
If they live in england they dont get to vote.
This is about the people of Scotland. Not blood and soil nationalism
Eu citizens in Scotland got to vote last time and thir votes perhaps turned yes to no but its irrelevant as they had that vote by right as people who made it their home and they will have the vote next time as well
@IRCI've read Alf Bairds book and mostly agree with him. Where I differ is on franchise like I said people who live here get to vote no matter where they were born. Yes it makes it more difficult for the pro indy side to win.
Is it irritating yes hugely but that's just another hurdle we have to overcome.
I have to wonder.
If the Scots get independence , they will only have one political party the SNP.
Will queen Nicola be setting up new parties to challenge her leadership?
If the project financially fails will we in GB get a vote to allow the failed project back into Great Britain or will Scotland just be desolved and become part of England?
If the Scots get independence , they will only have one political party the SNP.
Why would the other parties suddenly cease to exist?
And why would the SNP continue to exist as the largest?
I have to wonder.
If the Scots get independence , they will only have one political party the SNP.
Will queen Nicola be setting up new parties to challenge her leadership?If the project financially fails will we in GB get a vote to allow the failed project back into Great Britain or will Scotland just be desolved and become part of England?
I have to wonder.
Are you just trolling or are you really that stupid?
I expect over time a complete political realignment in Scotland. The glue that holds the snp together will have gone.
I expect a small hard left grouping. A large centre left group. A centerist group. A centre right group a tiny hard right group and the greens
Gordhimor
I expect the non uk citizens to vote yes this time to return to the EU. Last time they voted no scared of losing EU membership
To make a gross generalisation
Tj I hope you're right
High Peak Rider I'm sure there will be a few tough years but eventually the UK project might be able to rejoin Scotland we would have to vote on it though and then there would be a few years to realign your standards and currency with ours.
@scotroutes People keep saying you don't want to be governed by Westminster, So is the plan to have a Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative party, have they confirmed they will stay in place, or will you have new parties? Who knows if a rejoin GB party will be formed.
I guess as this is the second vote its been communicated to Scotts exactly how the country will be run. I'm just asking that question.
Where are the figures that show Scotland can be financially independent?
Rumour in the UK is the Bank Of Scotland and many firms would move to England.
I'm just asking if you've been provided with details we don't know about in GB for you guys to make an informed decision.
I don't see that as trolling its asking for the detail you've been provided with.
Government , currency, lawmaking , NHS, Pensions etc etc, all required to run independent Scotland.
@gordimhor Would that include Wales if we join you?
We would have to have a vote to choose a new one big country name though.
Highpeakrider. Its up to the people what political parties they form. Democracy you see. A strange concept i know.
As above i expect a realignment over time and the snp to split or even disappear.
Plenty of info given on finances on this thread as well
Law. We have our own already
Nhs ditto
Currency a decision to be made by the first post independence government. The snp will make proposals but thats all they are. Proposals
There is loads of onfo out there and i expect firm propsals from the snp. No one else will put any forward as all the other parties other than the greens are sticking their fingers in their ears and going lalalala
@HighPeakRider nothing to stop Wales becoming independent either . Don't wait for us.
Currency a decision to be made by the first post independence government.
So in other words, independence means independence?
Trollololodingdong
Supreme court has agreed to hear the argument that the scots government can hold a referendum without Westminster permission
First hurdle crossed
Seems unlikely they will say yes to a ref
As i understand it rules are pretty clear that westminster has supremacy on this?
(I see it more as a way to increase indy support than directly get a ref called)
Good news. Another step closer.
tbf we're miles away from independence.
This decision will go against Scotland, no doubt about that. The SNP will then run on a referendum ticket for the GE, citing democratic deficiency, which will play well at home. Which will potentially shift the polls.
As the polls rise it becomes more and more difficult for the British government to deny a second ref. i still think they'll hold out for years tbh, unless there is an alignment under westminster where labour needs support from the SNP.
Meanwhile, you've go the yahoos thinking Sturgeon is planning on declaring UDI. 😆
It's a long long game this, imo.
As i understand it rules are pretty clear that westminster has supremacy on this?
This government play fast and loose with 'the rules' - perhaps the Supreme Court should look more favourably on the SNP's request.
It does seem somewhat unjust that Scotland cannot make the decision independently. That said, I wouldn't want yearly referenda until the result became yes.
There must be a way to change the rules, so that Scotland can independently take a referendum say every 20 years, if it so wished.
In Northern Ireland the GFA allows for a referendum every seven years.
Yeah, somewhat at the behest of the secretary of state though, but really that's just a procedural matter once the numbers change.
Constitutional issues, 1, annex A and and schedule 1 are the relevant bits to read if anyone is interested.
As i understand it rules are pretty clear that Westminster has supremacy on this?
Its not quite as clear-cut as that. The referendum bill (as per the last one) is drafted as a consultative referendum. Given that regardless of the outcome of the poll the legislation doesn't change it is not clear that a s30 notice is required. It would not be impossible (legally/constitutionally) for a poll to get the go-ahead, a majority vote in favour and Westminster to shrug and say "we note your wishes, but its a reserved matter so tough".
That said, I wouldn’t want yearly referenda until the result became yes.
Presumably, any party who tried the patience of the electorate by having referenda more frequently than the people wanted would find their political success waning and other parties gaining momentum and thus able to block it at Holyrood. Its a risk the SNP are playing with - if the Court says on you go, and they don't get >50% they will face a real struggle to justify another in the next parliament - so what then does the SNP represent? Worse, if they only got <45% they will implode. If I was the new PM I might say "OK, you can have a referendum". I don't understand what they have to lose (a Yes vote will get rid of 50 odd pesky opposition seats, and I doubt their key "swing" voters "get Brexit done" types care; a No vote lets them say - "see I told you so, now get on with running scotland" and probably helps their cause in the next election saying "Scot Gov just pissing money up the wall on referenda and will do it again".)
If the project financially fails will we in GB get a vote to allow the failed project back into Great Britain or will Scotland just be desolved and become part of England?
Same thing as when any other country needs money, they go to the markets, if the markets are unaffordable you end up at the IMF, who'll bail you out but impose conditions on spending, and if you don't like that, you sell your natural resources/soul to China.
But post referendum it would be neither the UK's circus, not it's monkeys.
But I doubt that would happen, they'd just need to make the political decision whether they were green and re-assess public spending to make it affordable, or going to subsist on north sea oil for a bit longer. Either is manageable. My only grievance is Scottish politicians always seem to want to have their cake and eat it. Lot's of manifesto commitments and bluster about being green, until it comes to the money then it's oil, oil, oil.
I'd have more respect for them if they either committed to leaving oil in the ground or came out and said their spending would be funded by oil exports.
Westminster had argued the court could not hear the case so its a definite first step and first defeat for Westminster
I think it would be a good move if the SNP changes leader before the start of any vote. The tabloids and their gammon's are too fixated on Nicola Sturgeon and spout hate and derision towards her daily. That means they've plenty of previous material to rehash and a change of leadership could put a spanner in the works of the campaign of personal attacks they will embark on if a date becomes clear.
This decision will go against Scotland, no doubt about that.
No, the decision will not go against Scotland. Or indeed for Scotland. The decision will go either for or against the part of Scotland which wants to leave, and vice versa.
Remember that the vast majority of elections and opinion polls over the last umpteen years have shown the majority of us up here do not want a second referendum. Okay, at the moment it's a roughly 50/50 split, but for the SNP to claim we are all being denied our democratic rights is not true.
Personally speaking, I would be in favour of a second referendum if it would settle things once and for all (or at least a generation as they promised last time). However I suspect we would just have Indyref3, Indyref4 etc forced upon us every couple of years until we vote the so-called "correct" way.
Okay, at the moment it’s a roughly 50/50 split, but for the SNP to claim we are being denied our democratic rights is nonsense.
The SNP and the Greens who form a majority government and were both voted in with a referendum in their manifestos. If both parties in a majority government are denied the opportunity to implement their manifestos, surely that is undemocratic?
The SNP and the Greens who form a majority government and were both voted in with a referendum in their manifestos. If both parties in a majority government are denied the opportunity to implement their manifestos, surely that is undemocratic?
A fair comment (and remember I said I wasn't necessarily against a second referendum), however they were elected through the first past the post system which has a huge number of flaws. And yes, Westminster elections are just as bad, before anyone else points that out.
The point I was trying to make was that only (roughly) half of Scottish people want a second referendum, therefore that comment about the vote going against Scotland was very much not true.
If I lived in Scotland and had Truss forced on me, I'd be down at the border with a shovel helping dig the trench
kennyp
Free Member
This decision will go against Scotland, no doubt about that.No, the decision will not go against Scotland. Or indeed for Scotland. The decision will go either for or against the part of Scotland which wants to leave, and vice versa.
It's a question of Scotland's right to choose. So yes it will go against Scotland.
A fair comment (and remember I said I wasn’t necessarily against a second referendum), however they were elected through the first past the post system which has a huge number of flaws. And yes, Westminster elections are just as bad, before anyone else points that out.
AMS not FPTP.
So yes it will go against Scotland.
Scotland didn't take the case to court so the decision can't go against Scotland. The case was taken to court by a political party, not a country.
The SNP and Scotland are not the same thing, no matter how much their spin doctors like to conflate the two.
The point I was trying to make was that only (roughly) half of Scottish people want a second referendum, therefore that comment about the vote going against Scotland was very much not true.
Don't let the truth get in the way of SNP propaganda.
only (roughly) half of Scottish people want a second referendum, therefore that comment about the vote going against Scotland was very much not true.
Surely the comment is approximately a half truth.
Scotland didn’t take the case to court so the decision can’t go against Scotland. The case was taken to court by a political party, not a country.
As a point of order, it was not taken to court by a political party. It was referred there by the Lord Advocate, a member of the Scottish Government. Don't conflate the Lord Advocate and the SNP, whilst inevitably, she may be a member of the SNP she's acting quite properly here as a law officer and raising a legitimate question of law, in contrast to how the current Attorney General tackles issues where that government's legal position is far from certain.
The ability to have a referendum to determine the electorate's view on fundamental issues of the constitution is surely a "win for Scotland" whichever side of the political divide you come from on what you want the outcome of that referendum to be.
This thread has grown arms and legs, and I’ve lost the place with it.
Declaring my hand - I was no and am now yes. I’m driven by two key thoughts, while conceding Indy will be a sh*tshow.
1) I would love the option to rejoin the EU, for all of its warts and flaws.
2) I have little hope that the UK will see the constitutional, political, electoral, or economic reform that it needs - so I see the current situation with Westminster as absolutely untenable.
So, for the Indy objectors (which I think is a legit stance), how would you answer these questions:
1) What is your biggest objection to Indy?
2) Is the current situation viz-a-vis Westminster tenable?
1 We will be poorer. I consider myself British and Scottish. We already control mostday to day issues.
2 Yes. The so called democratic deficit is no different from that suffered by non SNP voters in Scotland. You don't always get your choice of govt.
As a point of order, it was not taken to court by a political party. It was referred there by the Lord Advocate, a member of the Scottish Government.
True, but I'd argue my basic point about this being the SNP, and not Scotland, still stands.
The ability to have a referendum to determine the electorate’s view on fundamental issues of the constitution is surely a “win for Scotland” whichever side of the political divide you come from on what you want the outcome of that referendum to be.
Possibly but not necessarily. The last referendum was an angry, bitter, divisive and at times violent affair that caused fall-outs between families, friends etc. A lot of us do not want to see that repeated.
And there are things like the timing (the world is in such turmoil at the moment so maybe when things have settled down), or the terms eg personally I think such a big decision requires more than a simple 50% plus 1 vote majority. Then there's the fact we may have a third or fourth referendum forced on us if we don't vote the "right" way.
As I said above, I could be persuaded that a second referendum is a good thing, but not what is being proposed just now.
1) What is your biggest objection to Indy?
I've never seen a poll on Independence that doesn't slice the vote at about 50/50 (or a couple of points either side of that) If nothing else Brexit has demonstrated that on issues that are split as evenly; a simple (teeny) majority isn't going to settle the question in the way that folks think it will. If it'd been 70/30 for years, we wouldn't be having this debate. For the massive challenges and changes it would entail, I don't think "about half" of the eligible vote is a good enough constituency.
2) Is the current situation viz-a-vis Westminster tenable?
It's increasingly clear that this country (and not just Scotland) requires a better democratic settlement. We could easily devolve much more than we do regionally, and we ought to be looking at better ways to elect and support politicians to do a better job. If bits of the UK are so angry and fed up that they're willing to confront the dangers (and opportunities admittedly) of going it alone as a smaller nation, then something has gone horribly wrong. That our politicians seem helpless or indecisive or unwilling about how to correct that should be a concern to everyone.
being the SNP, and not Scotland, still stands.
Not really support for independence is wider than just support for the SNP.
Also whilst it's true to say that many people in Scotland support the union it's as true to say that many people in Scotland support independence
True, but I’d argue my basic point about this being the SNP, and not Scotland, still stands.
You can argue it. But you'll be wrong!
Possibly but not necessarily. The last referendum was an angry, bitter, divisive and at times violent affair that caused fall-outs between families, friends etc. A lot of us do not want to see that repeated.
Ok. Simple - don't elect a government that will have a referendum. I don't want to see lots of things, but if the government were elected on the basis that this is what they would do, then it must surely be better that democracy wins?
I don't recall any violence? Are you sure it was referendum violence and not just violence that would happen anyway being labelled as that?
And there are things like the timing (the world is in such turmoil at the moment so maybe when things have settled down),
I agree. Actually, I think those issues don't favour the SNP. BUT the message from Westminster is not, OK let's talk about the timescales, its simple NO. I'd be all in favour of a proper constitutional convention to give the UK a chance to fix its politics/governance and then see if Scotland wants to leave the salvaged ship.
or the terms eg personally I think such a big decision requires more than a simple 50% plus 1 vote majority.
Oh I completely agree. There's no doubt that introducing major constitutional upheaval for say 52% of the people who turn out and answer an overly simplistic question with yes or no is a really bad way to getting a cohesive route forward. It would of course be equally perverse if 52% of people who bothered to turn up voted for major change and the powers that be ignored that. I don't know how you reconcile that, I also don't know how you can ever hope to get a 45 or 48% who want something that it legitimately lost democratically to enthuse behind the alternative without some major change or compromise.
Then there’s the fact we may have a third or fourth referendum forced on us if we don’t vote the “right” way.
Where does the notion that it is forced on us come from? If the people of Scotland do not want referenda on independence because of the uncertainty, the division, the angst etc there is a really easy solution. They can vote for the other 3 major political parties in sufficient numbers that there is no holyrood majority to initiate one. The political system in Scotland was designed to stop any party (and particularly the SNP) having an outright majority.
Its forced on the people of Scotland the same way that "Scottish rates of income tax", "Free bus transport for <22's", "Free prescriptions", "Curriculum for Excellence", "Not paying tuition fees" etc are. You might not like the policy, but there were other options available and people democratically chose this mix of parliamentarians to represent them.
As I said above, I could be persuaded that a second referendum is a good thing, but not what is being proposed just now.
the problem is that what is being proposed now is exactly what was accepted in 2014. If it was OK then, why not now? The answer is - in 2014 those who are objecting to a second vote now were more confident of winning. Ironically Westminster could have at least tinkered with the criteria if they were willing to engage.
I don’t recall any violence? Are you sure it was referendum violence and not just violence that would happen anyway being labelled as that?
After the No side won some Unionists got a bit over excited and decided to let the Yes side know they had lost in the only way they know how.
So yes, one of the sides in this argument has violent tendencies. All the more reason to have another referendum and vote Yes this time, imo.
The last referendum was an angry, bitter, divisive and at times violent affair that caused fall-outs between families, friends etc. A lot of us do not want to see that repeated.
Not to diminish your experience @kennyp but I don't remember it being like that at all (and I generally only hear this argument from those against a ref). The only violence I can recall was as per the post above. There were some healthy debates, but to be honest I thought that was a positive thing that people were engaging in politics. Other than a few roasters on social media, it was pretty civil IMHO. I certainly didn't fall out with anyone.
We already control mostday to day issues.
Apart from immigration, energy, social security, trade and industry.....
Possibly but not necessarily. The last referendum was an angry, bitter, divisive and at times violent affair that caused fall-outs between families, friends etc. A lot of us do not want to see that repeated.
😆 wild
however they were elected through the first past the post system which has a huge number of flaws.
Point of order. Holyrood is elected on a proportional system.