Scotland Indyref 2

I'm almost tempted to vote Yes this time to we can stop all the tedious arguing and move on!

I wonder if May will have the distinction of being the last ever female UK PM?

outofbreath - Member

"So.... it's not really an argument to be making then, is it?"

I don't think sound logic is always part of the Nationalist toolkit.

As opposed to the erudite and measured posts of team weethickpoor on here? If you can find me a newspaper report on Nats calling for Teresa May to be beheaded as well please.

"not really sure i get your point tbh"

He spelled it out clearly and it's a very simple point.

"As opposed to the erudite and measured posts of team weethickpoor"

?

Genuinely what is your point?

"Like many, at whichever point on the political spectrum they lie, he only reads the news services that deliver the news he wants to hear."

I just feel that after the previous what seems like an eternity arguing about Scottish independence or EU membership, you'd think that all sides would have taken a step back and thought, "You know what? Being all combative and dismissive and calling people I don't agree with 'racists' or 'xenophobes' or 'fearties' or 'delusional' or 'apparatchiks' or 'shills' or whichever epithet best suits the degree of my distaste... it doesn't work. It just drives a bigger wedge."

But carry on. There clearly wasn't enough damage done the last two times.

I'm almost tempted to vote Yes this time to we can stop all the tedious arguing and move on!

Whatever the result the next independence referendum will be the last for a long time.

Whatever the result the next independence referendum will be the last for a long time.

Yeah, I think I heard that before.

Only that calling out one side on their bias and then trying to disparage their views with a bit of the old "guilt by association", when you freely admit the other side are just as biased does seem a bit, well... biased.

Again is there a left wing alternative to breitbart fox news etc - I genuinely think this is a more recent right wing phenomenon rather than a universal thing - you need to find these sites and flag them up to convince me its not more of a RW issue - I dont mean gentle RW i mean the tea party/UKIP end of the spectrum that the poster mentioned epitomises. I am not sure we have got a full on cyber nat on here but if we did I would be equally scornful of them

As for seeking accord I get your point but the two views are just opposites and I am not sure how you think that will work
On the EU little englanders and gentle racists voted for a bunch of lying conmen to achieve something that was impossible [ lies] and we are no longer even trying to achieve - save the NHS be in the EU but not etc- and you want me to seek accord with them.
I dont see how consensus is achievable and yes it divides the nations

yes there are LW alternatives - the canary would be a good place to start

Never heard of it and glance at the headlines would suggest its as one sided as Breitbart is
Cheers

This makes interesting reading - from someone who worked on the "better together" campaign

Take it from someone who worked on the first Scottish referendum: what Theresa May is doing is a big mistake

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/scottish-referendum-theresa-may-no-sturgeon-big-mistake-a7634116.html

I found this blog to offer an interesting view

http://www.twoberries.scot/?p=4262

Offering the position that now TM has poo-poo'd the proposed timeframe that the snp could resign on mass and force an election with independence as a manifesto pledge.

I dontt think that is what I did

its a grand exercise in cherry picking to confirm his bias

see also climate change deniers

True

One thing that is very obvious on this thread is the number of anti independence posters who do not live in Scotland and have no idea of what is happening politically here. there are some anti independence scots residents - you can usually tell them by the fact they understand the issues but disagree with the solutions but the number of English residents who keep on telling us what we think and need is really funny when they have no understanding of the isues

Take it from someone who worked on the first Scottish referendum: what Theresa May is doing is a big mistake

...but when you look at the other two options stated in the article it was probably the least worst option she had.

Nope - her best option was the snap referendum

When is the time?:

Your post is too disjointed for me to grasp the point you are trying to make- no offence but it does not make sense to me and I have no idea what you are trying to say

Nope - her best option was the snap referendum

Non starter. a) The Govt might lose that. b) I doubt there's a load of civil service time going spare because of Brexit.

When is the time?:

Never. There should never be another referendum on this.

Offering the position that now TM has poo-poo'd the proposed timeframe that the snp could resign on mass and force an election with independence as a manifesto pledge.

Interesting, running exclusively on the pledge of making a Unilateral Declaration of Independence.

Hope it doesn't come to that.

[quote=tjagain ]Nope - her best option was the snap referendum
When is the time?:

agreed but the problem, as the link noted, is that she has accepted that it has to happen and the only debate is over the "time" not the actuality.
They will beat her to death with this and she will end up with a Holyrood vote for a ref and her saying not now you are not ready which just plays directly into their narrative about tories/westminster.

Imagine we leave the EU the economy is a mess - which we all know is inevitable- and business leave then this just strengthens the SNP cause

Now is when the SNP and the vote is at its weakest so to preserve the union it was now.

I think May is just muddling through all this and about to start getting kicking from all sides for her tactics on this and Brexit

So do I - there are various nuclear options and this is one of them but anything like this makes for a hard acrimonious leave and would not be in the interests of either country.

Not sure which category you pigeonhole me in, TJ, but my understanding of the issues as a Yorkshireman living in Scotland is that the SNP have not been all that good at actually running the country, either nationally or locally - see Police Scotland, Outcome-based Education, zero-fees for Scottish students actually resulting in fewer Scots from lower-income backgrounds attending uni, the Forth Bridge closures, the NPD debacle, Edinburgh's Stat Notice issues, bemoaning child poverty/foodbanks/whatever but not using the £150 million+ annual budget underspend to do anything about it - instead focussing on, and freely admitting it, independence. Add this to the frankly embarrassing "ach, it'll all work out somehow", "we've taken legal advice", "we'll automatically remain in the EU", "it's our pound", "oil bonanza" stance on independence last time round, and I wouldn't trust them to organise a bring-and-buy sale without it being a failure and that failure somehow being Westminster's fault.

Unfortunately I don't really have any other Scottish government to compare them to but to paraphrase something about art, I think it was: "I'm no politician, but I know bad politics"

Your post is too disjointed for me to grasp the point you are trying to make- no offence but it does not make sense to me and I have no idea what you are trying to say

[b]bias[/b]
'b???s'
[i]noun[/i]
1.
inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.

I also gave you an example of how an unbiased sentence would have read.

Flying ox - I am afraid you are one of the ill informed.

The SNP ( and remember I am not an snp supporter of voter) have actually been a fairly competent and cautious government and have actually done better than any UK government since Blairs first term

Lets see. Removed the internal market from the NHS freeing 10% of the NHS budget and allowing actuall proper planning. Delivered the new forth crossing on time and in budget. delivered two new railway lines on time and in budget. NOt bad on energy policy but hamstring by westminster.

I am no SNP fan but they have been competent in government and no major mistakes

No other political party in the UK has a vote of 45%+ and Sturgeon has satisfaction ratings far above any other UK politician

the problem is in England you do not get a true picture of what is happening

So your measure of competence is bridge-building and trains? And not education, policing, interpretation of EU law, financial nouse or economics?

Removed the internal market from the NHS freeing 10% of the NHS budget and allowing actuall proper planning

the problem is in England you do not get a true picture of what is happening

Sturgeon has satisfaction ratings far above any other UK politician

Sorry flying ox - I thought you lived down south. I got that wrong then you must fit into the category of seeing the data but coming to differnt conclusions. My apologies

By any measure they have been basically competent IMO

Working in the NHS I can tell you its better in Scotland than in England

The SNP didn't build the Forth Bridge - Transport Scotland did ! The Civil Service rolls on regardless, and it was planned well before SNP came into power.

hels - Member
The SNP didn't build the Forth Bridge - Transport Scotland did ! The Civil Service rolls on regardless, and it was planned well before SNP came into power.

Working in the NHS I can tell you its better in Scotland than in England

By any measure they have been basically competent IMO

"Overall, Scotland’s ranking has dropped from 11th to 23rd for reading since 2006, from 11th to 24th for maths and from 10th to 19 for science. A record number of nations are now doing better than Scotland, with the English education system boasting a significantly superior performance at science."

This is your measure of basic competence?
[img] [/img]

Hels - it was planned more than 10 years ago?

her saying not now you are not ready

Is it Scotland which isn't ready, or the Uk? Surely the Uk is not ready. All 'our' civil service time is going to be taken up sorting out Brexit. I don't see how the administrators could manage both negotiations/re-structuring processes at once.

By that token the SNP isn't responsible for much of the the stuff listed above either (Forth Bridge Closures?)

outofbreath - would much of it not be the same issues? Personally I don't see " we are busy with ****ing up us getting out of the EU" as an excuse

outofbreath - would much of it not be the same issues?

Not at all. The EU doesn't own 8pc of the Uks assets.

How the hell do you value an aircraft carrier? It's all going to need to be negotiated and frankly I don't see how that can go smoothly. The Uk keeps 92pc of the RAF? How does that work? 8pc of Aircrew/Pilots/Aircraft/Airfields? There's going to be an endless list of stuff that has massive paper value but is worthless to Scotland. Say we give you one Nuclear Sub, that's 25pc of the fleet, but you have to decommission it so really it's just a massive liability. So what, we buy it off you? At what cost? I'd say zero. No doubt Scotland will want 5 billion dollars for it with some justification. There's going to be tons of stuff like this. Separatist are in some kind of Dunning–Kruger fantasy that it's going to require little civil service input.

Leaving the EU is going to be a doddle in comparison to the nightmare of splitting up a country - and that's going to be insanely complex - I can see an impasse reached there and the UK remaining indefinitely on article 50 extensions when we get to the detail.

I think it would have been better had you expounded on your argument some more rather than try and patronise me by explaining what bias was - you did not seem to think i had failed to understand bias when i agreed that some nats were biased 🙄

I disagree its a fallacious argument and for it to be false you will need to convince me that RW [ or climate sceptics] read a broad spectrum of press reports from all sources to form their views. I doubt you can and therefore my argument is sound

like many on the RW he only reads the news services that deliver the news he wants to hear its a grand exercise in cherry picking to confirm his bias- see also climate change deniers

This argument is not fallacious

I am not really sure what your broader point is here tbh but please try and expand on it rather than explain the meaning of simple words we both know i understand

Combining the subjects of the new bridge and cycling, it was the SNP who cancelled pedestrian and cycle access. A disgraceful decision for major new transport infrastructure in the 21st century, and the SNP have not been particularly great on cycling in general.

I'll still be voting Yes in any second referendum, because despite what a lot of people keep saying, it's not about the SNP.

How the hell do you value an aircraft carrier?

On the assetts I would expect a lot of bargaining / swapping. You can have the subs, we want so many helicopters in exchange

Anyway I suspect and its a long way off that it will be a Hard divorce with scotland taking the asetts in Scotland an leaving rUK with everything else but not taking any or much of the debt.

I think westminster will try to play hardball like they did last time over the £ - a piece of utter nonsense when the bank of England belongs to the UK

outofbreath - Member

How the hell do you value an aircraft carrier?

We dont have any yet so that one is rather simple

The cash has been spent, both will be delivered.

So you think because they haven't been delivered as of today they should remain with the UK without any payment to Scotland?

Even though Scotland has contributed billions to paying for them?

....and you think that won't be contentious?

You think valuing an undelivered Aircraft Carrier is simple? Dunning Kruger is strong in you!

would much of it not be the same issues?

On the assetts I would expect a lot of bargaining / swapping. You can have the subs, we want so many helicopters in exchange

...and you think those negotiations would not require any Civil Service time because those Civil servants would have already been negotiating the same exchanges with the EU.

Hmmmm. Have you thought this through?

[quote=The Flying Ox ]By that token the SNP isn't responsible for much of the the stuff listed above either (Forth Bridge Closures?)
I think even the most cursory google search will show that the SNP ignored calls for repair work on the bridge until it was too late.

A Holyrood inquiry into the closure of the Forth Road Bridge has concluded that the fault which caused it could not have been foreseen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35779333

Scottish Conservative transport spokesman Alex Johnstone said the report highlighted the "true price of the Scottish government's penny-pinching approach to its responsibilities".
He said: "While it is the case that the closure of the Forth Road Bridge could not have been foreseen, the Scottish government's slow response in repairing the bridge has had a catastrophic impact on people and businesses."

Gosh yes - all the land that had to be purchased, for a start. I was working at the National Museum while negotiations were ongoing to move out of the storage facility that was demolished for the on-ramps.