Scotland Indyref 2

Trouble is no one ever asks these people.

Except you?

Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?

Who best to run that country? You on your own, or A COMBINATION of you and the country next door?

Emotive rubbish, you speak.

More like on our own where we seek co-operation from the best available source when required.

I don't subscribe the the theory of poor wee oppressed scotland, never have and never will. I just think scotland wants to go in a different directions from rUK which is really the ultimate source of my opinions. In that sense, UK rule is apt, particularly right now.

The SNP don't are not the source of my opinions.

I don't subscribe the the theory of poor wee oppressed scotland

You may not be the subtext of the SNP message is exactly that, that we are under English rule, except they won't use the term English and prefer the less emotive Westminster. You only have to look above in this thread to see an example of how the suggestion is that we are somehow "ruled" by England ie

Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?

tbh thats just your own paranoia, bursting to call the scots racist. They aren't, and the SNP aren't either. (The first shots of the better together 2 campaign trying to out right state as much a few weeks ago pretty much got laughed down. as it righty should have)

molgrips - Member
Who best to run that country? You on your own, or A COMBINATION of you and the country next door?

Emotive rubbish, you speak.

Emotive, of course it is, but we call it democracy here...

You only have to look above in this thread to see an example of how the suggestion is that we are somehow "ruled" by England ie

Its just true to say this

yes they have considerable devolved powers but its basically true that what decided the UK position is what england does not what scotland does

NOw I understand why you want to use hyperbolic language to describe the SNP position but the fact is England does decide for Scotland on a number of important issues

GIven this it snot hard to see why a country that does not voted for things starts to question the benefit of the union or feel oppressed by their neighbours being considerably more right wing and narrow minded than them and forcing them to do this as well.

The notion that the SNP is racist is ludicrous the Tories are a nationalist party - just for the whole union- but they are not racists either[ even if some of their supporters are].

NHS and Education facts as requested.
Education
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729 ]scottish pisa results[/url] also here [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38157811 ]more pisa results[/url]
There are other international comparisons but Scotland has mostly withdrawn from them under the leadership of the woman I like to call "Judge me on my education record" Sturgeon.

NHS comparison [url= https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/research/funding-and-performance-of-healthcare-systems-in-the-four-countries-of-the-uk-before-and-after-devolution ]here[/url]

And please stop shouting "too poor too wee" over and over like you've dropped something in your potty worth looking at.

Facts are facts.

Be honest (like some) and accept that Nationalism is its own reward for you.

Thats OK. It doesn't have to be good value for money for YOU.

Just hope that it happens while you're healthy, have no kids, and can pay your own way.

But other people are interested in the best FACTS available and whether the flag on its own will enable them to live in the way they've become accustomed to (with an NHS, social care, and a costly if ill managed education system etc.).

If there are good non-economic arguments for independence, start making them instead of pretending we'll all be rich or no worse off. Even the SNP have moved off that ground.

If relative economic prosperity isn't important then admit the truth and find something else, and I hope for your sake the argument amounts to more than flags and copies of braveheart.

EDIT: It is correct that independence would bring more powers.
But what have the SNP done with the powers they have? (beyond finding excuses not to use them)

tbh thats just your own paranoia, bursting to call the scots racist.

Not at all, I am Scottish and I live up here. Scottish people are generally just as open minded as other British people.

The people the SNP really reserve their hatred for are other Scots who disagree with them. I have debated politics many times with loads of different people. However in the run up too the referendum I was called traitor, scum, unScottish and told to **** off down to England, and that I was a disgrace to my country. All by SNP supporters. Obviously people like that are a minority as most SNP folk are quite decent, but it is a substantial minority.

Can i just check I've not entered a wormhole and gone back in time, because this whole page appears transplanted from the first ref thread (to be fair that's mostly been the case since I joined back in and I haven't particularly helped). Have you not found anything new to discuss in the 30 or 40 pages I didn't bother reading?

One obvious difference this time is if/when any discussions on the split happened it will be presumably be a UDI rather than an agreed split, so if you're hoping to avoid some of these problems through negotiating helpful terms you might be disappointed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25216523

I am no education expert by any means but from above...

Many within Scottish education play down the significance of the PISA rankings. They argue that the tests only cover very specific skills. In particular, they pay no attention to the concept of deeper learning and understanding - a vital concept in Scotland's Curriculum for Excellence. The thought is that deeper learning - truly understanding a subject rather than just giving a youngster facts and figures - equip them far better for the world of work or later study.

...and then the below...

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/scotlands-universities-produce-more-successful-graduates-than-the-rest-of-the-uk-hesa-data-shows-10438392.html

...maybe there is something in it.

Can i just check I've not entered a wormhole

Wormhole for defs

kennyp - Member
tbh thats just your own paranoia, bursting to call the scots racist.
Not at all, I am Scottish and I live up here. Scottish people are generally just as open minded as other British people.

The people the SNP really reserve their hatred for are other Scots who disagree with them. I have debated politics many times with loads of different people. However in the run up too the referendum I was called traitor, scum, unScottish and told to **** off down to England, and that I was a disgrace to my country. All by SNP supporters. Obviously people like that are a minority as most SNP folk are quite decent, but it is a substantial minority.

@seaso how many Scots in the armed forces and support infrastructure ? All on the dole ? Not a member of NATO then ? Does the Navy do fisheries protection ?

I can't see UK being lender of last resort, too much moral hazard, ie SNP free to F it all up knowing UK will pay. Also UK was not lender of last resort to Ireland, we chipped €5bn into the bailout but that was just a small part. Look at eurozone support for Greece, done at totally uneconomic rates and Greeks complain endlessly about being crushed.

The SNP don't want a Referendum now or in 2018 as they know they won't win, they want the ability to call one at a point of their choosing at anytime in the future. IMO they will not be granted that "free option"

Aye well, as you say minority, I'll leave you to focus on the lowest common denominator. No a game i'm interested in playing. It's just not relevant.

Not a game I'm interested in either but as you had brought the racism angle into the debate I thought I'd give my experience of it.

As for the lowest common denominator I just stopped debating with them. It's not worth the grief. Plenty of pleasant, educated independence supporters out there I'd rather argue with.

If there are good non-economic arguments for independence, start making them instead of pretending we'll all be rich or no worse off. Even the SNP have moved off that ground.
If relative economic prosperity isn't important then admit the truth and find something else, and I hope for your sake the argument amounts to more than flags and copies of braveheart.

I agree with this its like a divorce in the short run the "economics" make no sense / you will be worse of but its not the only thing that matters [ unless you are THM ] but at least be honest

As I said I would vote for almost anythign that removed Tory influence from my life

I can't see UK being lender of last resort

Totally agree. It was made clear last time that the UK would not act in this capacity to an independent Scotland. Which would leave Scotland at the mercy of the world financial markets and with a hopeless credit rating.

Yes km79 Curriculum for Excellence is great (titters).
Thats what everyone says

For example after the PISA results John Swinney said;

John Swinney, the Scottish Education Minister, said: “There is great strength in Scottish education but these results underline the case for radical reform of Scotland’s education system.

"The results undoubtedly make uncomfortable reading but they contain a plain message: we must continue to make the changes that are necessary to strengthen Scottish education.”

Did you see what he did there;
After 10 YEARS of SNP control of education there is an apparent need for "radical reform of Scotland’s education system"

I've just realised that people in this thread are putting a more positive spin on the economic argument for independence and the performance of Scotlands education system than Nichola Sturgeon and John Swinney feel able to.

This may be the perfect moment foretold by the prophets, where STWs ringpiece rushed skyward from its open mouth like the firing of the weapon in the final scenes of the Fifth Element.

I'm calling it a night and carrying that thought off with me. I may return in 10 pages to repeat myself.

As will we all.

TTFN :O)

Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?

Km - your right on the Unis - best in the UK but behind that nice facade*

Scotlands best Uni student breakdown (approx)

Nasty rich English 35%
Loud v rich yanks 35%
Salt(ire) of the earth Scots 30% (IGMC)

Hmmm....canny folk at those Unis knowing where the money is and we all know the stats on Scottish educational equality despite free tuition.

* Plus poor old wee eck forgot his second year macro teaching from the best faculty and the best Uni about currencies and how central banks work. Shame on all the alumni

Yes km79 Curriculum for Excellence is great (titters).

Well it did receive cross party support when it was being developed. It was given a try and it's been recognised it needs improvement. Interestingly the SNP are willing to admit that yet the other parties who initially broadly supported it have resorted to sniping from the sidelines having disowned their own involvement.

Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?

Not right away, no - but I wouldn't give up on the idea of Scottish independence.

km79
10 years of full control.

10 YEARS

that is all.
definitely going now.

kennyp - Member
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?

in the short run the "economics" make no sense / you will be worse of but its not the only thing that matters [ unless you are THM ]

The trouble is, all the figures suggest the economics will be significantly worse for at least your lifetime. Which will have a big impact on all the things which do matter to you. As I pointed out earlier to TJ an awful lot of things do come down to money, and without it the reality is that the SNP (or whoever the Scottish government is) will be forced to have policies which IDS and Gove could only dream of.

kennyp - Member
It was made clear last time that the UK would not act in this capacity to an independent Scotland.

Aracer - you are forgetting the Tartan Money Tree - oh and taxing the rich bastards and companies

You could start on the latter by increasing the MRT to 50p - oh wait, why did the SNP say that they wouldn't do this?

Still you could always raise corporation tax - oh, wait, we are going to charge them less than in England

.....there's a trend with this having you cake and eat it stuff

No Joe - one is listening to the (independent) Governor of the (independent) BoE - he understands these things

Here's a link to the revised version of that Nuffield report
ETP
[url= https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/research/the-four-health-systems-of-the-uk-how-do-they-compare ]Nuffield Centre revised report 2014[/url]
Or there's this here which suggests that Scotland spent it's NHS funding more "judiciously"
[url= https://chpi.org.uk/blog/devolution-mean/ ]CHPI report[/url]
Although both say it is more and more difficult to make comparisons due to different methods of information gathering

OMG - is this still going on?

seosamh77 - Member

Well reserves is a good question. Many like to point if the deficit Scotland have. But let's tally up the total Debt and reserves and see where we stand with that too. What's scotlands share of the assets?

epicyclo - Member

Och aye, Scots are incapable of managing their country's finances. If something goes wrong wey're incapable of sorting it out.

We don't have enough resources.

Oh we do have oil, but that's obviously a bad thing because we'd quickly be as broke as Saudi Arabia or Norway if we didn't have the wise guidance of Westminster to spend it on Trident nukes and HS2 and foreign wars.

Now let's consider a hypothetical case.
Let's say you have a country.
Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?
Hmmm, deep thought...

..............

aracer - Member

in the short run the "economics" make no sense / you will be worse of but its not the only thing that matters [ unless you are THM ]

There will be deficits for a few years I am sure given the awful mess we would be left with but it will not be as bad as you think given the gers figures don't show the whole picture

Oh we do have oil, but that's obviously a bad thing because we'd quickly be as broke as Saudi Arabia or Norway if we didn't

We had oil. Most of it is gone. The stuff left is in smaller expensive to access fields. Prices are down. Predicted oil revenue for the next couple of years - zero.

Alex Salmond had planned 24 March 2016 as his independence day and the budget he published during the Scottish independence referendum envisaged it having up to £7.5 billion of oil to spend. Today’s Budget shows that the figure will, instead be zero: precisely 100 per cent less than what the SNP had told Scots

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/collapse-in-north-sea-revenues-destroys-the-snps-economic-argument/

The trouble is, all the figures suggest the economics will be significantly worse for at least your lifetime. Which will have a big impact on all the things which do matter to you

Neither seem that great an option tbh.

I had forgotten how hysterical THM got on this issue , he hates the SNP more than I hate the Tories 😯

That is an impressive level of hate.

kennyp - Member
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?

If they'd lived up to their promises last time by now the SNP would not be in the ascendancy. Now a lot of No voters have come over to Yes.

I have no doubt they will repeat the same bovis stercore - we're already getting the meme pumped at us that the SNP cannot hold a referendum unless Westminster approves.

Given the energy in this thread today after headlines about what wee nippy was saying, it's was amusing to watch it live on BBC 2 now. Nothing like the headlines - no surprise there. A far more hedged discussion.

Scotland has a level of devolved power that is rarely seen in the world - Canada and Switz aside - and yet the BS narrative is all about control from Westminster. Brilliant.

rather like the UK pre-Brexit you could hardly get a better deal. And yet hard line nutters - Brexshiteers and Sexshiteers - will lie their best to destroy it, Brilliant ^2

teamhurtmore - Member
...Scotland has a level of devolved power that is rarely seen in the world ...

Devolved power is like saying your dog runs free because you have a long lead.

We're not your dog.

Scotland has a level of devolved power that is rarely seen in the world - Canada and Switz aside - and yet the BS narrative is all about control from Westminster. Brilliant.

Probably because folk understand the difference between devolved and independent

Has westminster said its up to scotland if they have a vote and they will respect the decision? Until they do its pretty obvious to all , even the willfully partisan, where the control really lies and who can rescind it

No one is stating that but nice try.

The basic reality of having very high levels of devolved power within a strong and well functioning union that could hardly be bettered is all rather inconvenient. Why? Because the excuses that it's not our fault don't wash then do they. Even a dog could get that, on a lead or otherwise.

kennyp - Member
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?

Depends how many lies and dirty tricks Westminster pulls this time.

Exactly why so many of us up here are sick of the SNP. Total unwillingness to accept the democratic result, blame Westminster and accuse them of cheating, and demand we keep voting and voting and voting until we give in and deliver the result the SNP demand.

Vote No in 2018 and by 2022 we get a third? Then a fourth?

Yes Scotland has a lot of devolved "independence" granted from westminster but that very statement tells you who has the control
Its indisputable

Exactly why so many of us up here are sick of the SNP

THis has yet to transfer to the ballot box

We had oil. Most of it is gone. The stuff left is in smaller expensive to access fields. Prices are down. Predicted oil revenue for the next couple of years - zero.

Indeed. I always said in the last referendum that we have to completely forget about oil, it does seem the SNP now think that too based on this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39178324

People are more informed now and if pro independence arguments still bleat on about oil wealth then they're doomed. There was so much complete nonsense about it last time, secret oil fields off Shetland, an oil boom on the horizon etc, etc, and people were blindly sharing it on facebook etc from pages like yes shetland, it was painful to see.

I reckon I'd probably vote for independence if there was another one, an unopposed tory government set on returning the country to the dark ages is doing my head in. However if I read the words "Hope over fear" ever again or any more nonsense about oil I might change my mind! I'd be a lot happier if there was a credible opposition to the SNP though as I'm not keen on them at all.

All the SNP need to do is write some lies on a bus and drive it round and boom

they can go indy and however bad it is for everyone, just shrug and say - 'its the will of the people'

@seaso being a lender of last resort in NOT an opportunty to make a profit. By the time things get that bad there is "no money left" and likely very few assets. If Scotland got into that situation the oil reserves would already have been sold off to try and avoid getting into that mess.

Would there be a third Referendum ? Of course, [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Shall-Never-Die/dp/0008139784#immersive-view_1489100228572 ]The Dream Shall Never Die[/url]

[img] [/img]

Looming forward to Swinney explaining how Central Bank reserves are going to be built up given the size of the Scottish FS industry.

Good job most folk don't understand and don't care.

Share of the British reserves should be a good start.

will it be as convincing as your explanation of where power lies in a devolved country 😆

[quote=seosamh77 ]Share of the British reserves should be a good start.

Doesn't seem at all unreasonable assuming you'd take a proportional share of all the other assets and liabilities. Though of course as I pointed out earlier if another referendum does happen in the near future (reading what NS is now saying that seems incredibly unlikely to me) the position in negotiations won't be the same as if it had been a referendum held with the agreement of the UK government.

Keep reading Joe!

Bigjim I agree with you that independent Scotland should not rely on oil revenues. Though some folk think revenues are going to rise [url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38091306 ]obr oil revenues[/url]

I should also say that "Hope Over Fear" is nothing to do with the SNP but is a Tommy Sheridan organisation. I am not a fan of his.I suspect the song came from there too

If Scotland got into that situation the oil reserves would already have been sold off to try and avoid getting into that mess.

*TOO WEE, TOO POOR ALERT*

[quote=BoardinBob ]*TOO WEE, TOO POOR ALERT*

I'm seeing distinct similarities between calling that out and Trumpettes describing anybody who disagrees with them as snowflakes. Neither really helps with progression of rational discussion.

Thm, still waiting on your example of a country that has gone independent from the UK but now wants to return? 😉

the position in negotiations won't be the same as if it had been a referendum held with the agreement of the UK government.

Thankfully there is at least one person on here able to accurately describe reality in a calm and rational manner.

Ture but there is no effective way - short of civil war- to ignore it.

Neither side will do that and as per usual TM will accept she was beaten in a ref and become hellbent on achieving what she did not want as she is a principled as any TOry 😉

TBH I have no idea how such a scenario [ Scotland votes leave in a ref that the UK does not sanction/recognise] would end but it would certainly not be with the Status Quo

What's the point of your question Joe? And why are you asking me?

Why does Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh whine so much - she makes Keiza look statesman-like?

TBH the only correct answer to that is the one already given - we don't know, because nobody has asked any of them. Though would you like to take a punt on what the opinion would be in Zimbabwe if asked?

It is of course also a strawman.

It's almost as if Project Fear was still running...

Just as well most of the negative stuff is coming from irrelevants, ie people who won't be getting a vote.

Last time from a base of about 25% in the polls we nearly got across the line. The new starting line is around 50%.

What have we got now:
Loads of new young voters, and those are about 85% in favour.
Oldies have died off, and so long as we have checks to ensure they don't postal vote this time, that is a reduction in the Unionist vote. They're also less likely to believe the lies about pensions this time.
EU citizens largely voted No because the scare about not getting into the EU. This time they will vote Yes, about 200,000 of them.

TBH I have no idea how such a scenario [ Scotland votes leave in a ref that the UK does not sanction/recognise] would end but it would certainly not be with the Status Quo

Probably end up with a few folk on here ****ing themselves to death over the prospect of getting to send the troops in.

"Irrelevants" - great hypocrisy, the vote affects everyone in the UK unless you are staggeringly myopic. Sums attitudes up very well epic!

[quote=Junkyard ]Thankfully there is at least one person on here able to accurately describe reality in a calm and rational manner.

HTH

TBH I have no idea how such a scenario [ Scotland votes leave in a ref that the UK does not sanction/recognise] would end but it would certainly not be with the Status Quo

I should expect it would end with Scottish independence, it doesn't appear there is any appetite to ignore advisory referendums. I certainly wasn't suggesting otherwise, simply that the strength held by each side when negotiating splitting of assets and liabilities (amongst other things) would be different to what it might have been if Scotland had voted yes in a Westminster sanctioned referendum. Such is the way with UDI.

Bigjim I agree with you that independent Scotland should not rely on oil revenues. Though some folk think revenues are going to rise obr oil revenues

I should also say that "Hope Over Fear" is nothing to do with the SNP but is a Tommy Sheridan organisation. I am not a fan of his.I suspect the song came from there too

It's the wheeling out of the phrase hope over fear in response to tricky questions eg about economy or currency that I get fed up with. It's the same as catchphrases like project fear or 911 or clintons emails, just a way to sidestep issues and paint the person asking the question as some kind of baddy or traitor.

There is definitely a future for oil here but the north Sea is past its peak, and whilst there are undoubtedly future reserves West of Shetland and Atlantic frontier, factors like the deep water and extreme environment mean they won't be viable for a long time. Decom costs are immense too. There's no point in prattling on about wasted oil revenues from padt decades either, we need to look forwards, not backwards, what's done is done.

teamhurtmore - Member
"Irrelevants" - great hypocrisy, the vote affects everyone in the UK unless you are staggeringly myopic. Sums attitudes up very well epic!

But it's true, you and your opinion are pretty much irrelevant in this debate.

Junkyard - lazarus
...Ture but there is no effective way - short of civil war- to ignore it...

A NI type situation would be a disaster IMO, but if the SNP backs down or loses again then they won't have the same clout. Remember the SNP is only part of the independence movement.

teamhurtmore - Member
"Irrelevants" - great hypocrisy, the vote affects everyone in the UK unless you are staggeringly myopic. Sums attitudes up very well epic!

The fact is your attitude is irrelevant to the end result.

We watch parliament on TV from up here. We get to see just exactly how much the UK cares about Scotland, so why should I care about the effect of our independence from UK that is trying to drag my country out of the EU?

Surely the rUK will be delighted that it won't be burdened with all that oil and getting rid of all those subsidy junkies.

You should be worried abot that, after all if the vote was widened you would win easily 😉

But you right, myopia is the name of the game. Very well pull

True epic, we should not forget Rev Campbell's Tartan Army

Scotland's just moving in a different direction its not about currency or oil
were just a different country ,we've just kinda drifted apart It's not your fault honest ,we tried an open relationship but hey neither of us were comfortable with it,the time has come to admit it just ain't working we can still be friends(even with benefits) but now's the time to call a halt,hell yeah it'll be tough but we still love you and in time you'll look back on this with a wistful smile ....I'm sure

All we need is a post from you making the claim that it is anti English sentiment driving the indy movement THM and you will have been through your personal list of cliches in two pages. Do you not want to keep at least some if your powder dry?

teamhurtmore - Member
What's the point of your question Joe? And why are you asking me?

duckman - Member
All we need is a post from you making the claim that it is anti English sentiment

So here is my personal view. From where I see it a basically competent social democratic minority government in holyrood that is internationalist / pro europe and reflects the will of the people of Scotland quite well and I see and archaic shambles down south that persists in leading us in ways I don't want. I am no blood and soil nationalist. I describe myself as a brit. However the country I know and love, Scotland has the potential to be so much more than it is and England is taking us in a direction I simply don't want to go and nor do the vast majority of the people of Scotland.

Economically the low price of oil is a huge hit but its unusually low for a unusually long time. Economically Scotland would be far from a basket case and it would take years to untangle fully especially with England leaving the eu. Politically this is all dependent on a smooth transition to remain in the eu but its a far from zero chance and whatever terms we got from the eu we are fully compliant and existing members of course there will be a EU fudge on it and the chance to stick two fingers up to westminster? don't underestimate it

Oil money if not large amounts now may well come back again and would be a welcome bonus. One real opportunity that is alternative energy. Scotland is well placed to carve out a niche here if the right decisions are taken now.

If right now it means real austerity rather than the fake london version then so be it

More politics. Sturgeon is shitting herself. A cautious politician by nature. she knows she has to call a referendum and she knows it has to be before A50 plus a year.

There remains a part of the Yes vote includes people who voted Out of the eu. this seems to have countered the former No voters to whom being in the EU is more important. Sturgeon said she wanted to see a steady lead in the polls before she went to the public. She hasn't got one. Is leaving the EU decisive enough an issue to call a referendum on? - because one more shot is all the snp get.

Someone mentioned the UK made no money out of oil last year.

Are those UK govt figures or are they something that can be checked independently?

And as a matter of interest how much did Norway make - they have the same size oilfields etc?

I ask because it seems gross incompetence for a govt not to be making money out of a resource mined in its country/waters.

So here is my personal view. From where I see it a basically competent social democratic minority government in holyrood that is internationalist / pro europe and reflects the will of the people of Scotland quite well and I see and archaic shambles down south that persists in leading us in ways I don't want. I am no blood and soil nationalist. I describe myself as a brit. However the country I know and love, Scotland has the potential to be so much more than it is and England is taking us in a direction I simply don't want to go and nor do the vast majority of the people of Scotland.

Pretty much this, less the love bit. Skiing isn't good enough for that.

the mash nails it

SCOTLAND’S second independence vote must happen in the window between Theresa May’s destruction of Britain and her sacking, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

The first minister told media that the exact scheduling is incredibly difficult, but that autumn next year currently looks about right.

She continued: “Post-Article 50, we’re expecting about six months while May continues to bluff boldly about EU negotiations while slowly realising exactly how much shit she’s in.

“Then we build momentum for independence as the economy collapses, the Tories turn on each other, the prime minister loses her majority and Jeremy Corbyn continues to make jam.

“That’s when we need to strike, while England’s an absolute hellhole but before May’s forced to resign and replaced by whichever luckless bawbag has to desperately offer concessions to the EU while the right-wingers rip them apart.

“We cannot wait until after Brexit. By that time the English will be so angry at how badly they’ve ****ed themselves they’ll start a war with anyone.”

I'd seen the Daily Mash story of FB, if you got a straight-laced BBC news presenter to read it, it'd sound like 'real news' 🙂

It's the same as catchphrases like project fear or 911 or clintons emails, just a way to sidestep issues and paint the person asking the question as some kind of baddy or traitor.

As the rightwingers on here delight in pointing out it's a successful tactic tho.....

Duck man, now you mention it?!!

Hand't crossed my mind. No one is so stupid that they commit self harm just because they don't like [s]doreigners[/s] the English and their bloody poll tax. Anyone remember that?

Brexshit took the BS baton off yS but they are going for be grabbing it back with both hands now. The distortion between the required rhetoric and reality will be even more breathtaking this time around

Talking of cliches - just listen the BS cliches that we get every time the SNP open their mouths * - not just nippy we had Tasmina Angry wetting herself on QT last night with the usually false claims and diversion tactics on their own failings

#SDBMB

* the grown up Angus Robertson aside

teamhurtmore - Member
... not just nippy we had Tasmina Angry wetting herself on QT last night with the usually false claims and diversion tactics on their own failings...

Sneering and name calling again? When you play the person and not the ball the spectators know you're losing...

If right now it means real austerity rather than the fake london version then so be it

Bravo TJ. Not many are prepared to admit that rather than austerity the Coalition and then the Tories has actually been running one of the loosest fiscal policies in the developed world. One reason why the UK finally recovered rel strongly.

Imagine what real austerity would feel like? God help the party bringing that in especially a pretend LW anti-austerity one

It's a funny old world awash with snake oil at the moment