Scotland Indyref 2

EtP well said!

Tax!! What do they believe? Flip flop on the MRT for highest earners. Argue for aggressive competition on corporation tax to compete against rUK etc

Perhaps its a good job they are bad at passing legislation.

Perhaps its a good job they are bad at passing legislation.

22 went through in 2016 alone. More than any other year so far. The Programme for Government was met for 2015-2016. Why wouldn't it be met for 2016-2017?

I am a political geek and a green.

Have you read their agricultural policies?

Do you agree with them?

Lets see - slow start so far but may be a negative split or should I say positive split in this case

#SDBMB

You're full of shite THM. #FUD

Well its important to fit in km, thank you

{how many bills passed under the new gov - remind us?]

How long is there still left? This is a weak dig even for a Tory.

Nicely put km79.

It really is astonishing how many folk on this thread pontificate about Scotlands politics without even a glimmer of understanding

its a prerequisite

Out of interest what is wee nippy's log in?

It really is astonishing how many folk on this thread pontificate about Scotlands politics without even a glimmer of understanding

Or a vote!

Reform Scotland concluded that there would need to be much greater devolution of both tax and welfare before the Scottish Government could use either effectively. I'll post the link later.
As for the contracts for ships, David Cameron originally promised, or should that be vowed there would be 13 ships built on the Clyde now turns out to be 8.

As for the contracts for ships, David Cameron originally promised, or should that be vowed there would be 13 ships built on the Clyde now turns out to be 8.

Do you want to increase defence spending to build more?

Its just another example of broken promises. One of many.

Big and daft - do you live in Scotland?

Its just another example of broken promises. One of many.

So do you want to increase defence spending to build more to keep the "promise"?

Still waiting for you to state whether you sign up to the Green Party agricultural policies?????

Green Party agricultural policies?

Which are? The 2016 manifesto is light on specific details, just a set of principles which don't look that controversial.

..

Actually since this is a thread about Scottish politics I read the Scottish Greens website and manifesto.

Edit: I will read your edit later.

So do you live in Scotland Big and daft? It seems to me the most vehemently anti SNP voices on this page are those with the least knowledge

I said I was a green not a Green - there is a difference. Ie philosophically green not allied to the party. I vote in a variety of ways depending on circumstances. There is no political party I agree with in its entirety.

[url= https://reformscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Reform-Scotland-Scotlands-new-powers-March-2016.pdf ]Scotlands new tax and benefits powers are not sufficient[/url]

"Do you want to increase defence spending to build more?" Surely David should have known how many ships the UK could afford to build when he made the vow . If Scotland was independent then we could make a decision on defence spending but since we're not independent the Tory government have made the decision

teamhurtmore - Member
...and then you will have achieved your goal of independence subjegating yourselves to an even mightier body that W'ster.

Subjugation? Not when you can leave without their permission.

Scotland is a de facto colony of Westminster.

As a member of the EU it would be in an entirely different relationship.

If Scotland was independent then we could make a decision on defence spending

Is this the fantasy land Scotland where you can spend more on defence despite that 14.8bn gap? Or can we discuss the real world where in an independent Scotland rather less than 8 new ships would be being built. TBH cutting defence spending is one of the more sensible suggestions for the deficit problem, even if it wouldn't go very far towards solving it. But you can't have it both ways and rely on the powers of independence allowing you to do mutually contradictory things.

epicyclo - Member
teamhurtmore - Member
...and then you will have achieved your goal of independence subjegating yourselves to an even mightier body that W'ster.
Subjugation? Not when you can leave without their permission.

Scotland is a de facto colony of Westminster.

As a member of the EU it would be in an entirely different relationship.

If you understand that, it goes some way to understanding the hostility you face on the question.

Big and daft? Care to answer about where you live? the reason I ask is all your knowledge of Scottish politics seems to come from English newspapers

@aracer no this is the normal land where a country's defence policy is decided on by people who live in that country. It's normality throughout much of the world.

Are you deliberately ignoring the question of where the money is coming from? I don't think anybody is confused about whether an independent country can control it's own defence policy - yet no country which has to balance the books has total freedom. This is an economic point not a question of whether you have control of things.

[quote=seosamh77 ]I doubt the veracity of the figures, but lets go with them, a vague guess is as close as anyone is going to get

You're better than that, Joe - they're the Scottish government's figures and all the big spend items are for things which are devolved, so I'd hope they have good records of what they're actually spending. Far from being a guess.

But it also points out that under the uk, scotland isn't being managed properly, so... not exactly something to be bigging up, when it's yourselves that have been holding the purse strings for the last 300 years. If you want to dictate finance, you take the blame when the numbers don't tally.

You can't make that conclusion at all. Currently "Scotland isn't being managed properly" by spending rather more per capita on all sorts of nice things. Which is fine, because it's more expensive doing some stuff in Scotland and for most of the last 40 years (thanks TJ 😉 ) it's "not been managed properly" by paying for that with oil money. Now it's being funded by the rest of the UK, which is also fine. This is a question of deficit - clearly when you're independent then you have full control of all the things which affect the deficit, so you can't blame previous UK governments at all if it's not possible to balance the books.

aracer I was deliberately ignoring that point because we could then address the issues you raise. We would have to. Currently UK governments can get away with poor decisions where their policies adversely affect Scotland as they don't need to succeed in Scotland to win at Westminster. I know Labour is less likely than the tories to manage a win based on England and Wales only, but all I can say is don't look for a Labour revival in Scotland anytime soon, perhaps the 2026 Scottish parliament election if there's still a Scottish labour party then.

clearly when you're independent then you have full control of all the things which affect the deficit, so you can't blame previous UK governments at all if it's not possible to balance the books.

[quote=gordimhor ]aracer I was deliberately ignoring that point because we could then address the issues you raise.

That point was the issue I raised 🙄

[quote=seosamh77 ]well, no shit, but until we do, you get the blame for it.

The blame for what exactly?

for continually telling us scotland is ****ed.

Few sair heids this morning Gents? 🙂

for continually telling us scotland is ****.

I hope/doubt that this is the case as I am coming up for a few days soon, and that would be a terrible waste of time and money!

Don't do your glorious country down Joe, leave that to your politicians and their whining. It's a great place IMO.

#SDBMB

Or a vote!

Many Scot's here don't have a vote as they are enjoying the economic benefits of living in England.

The indy referendum allowed everyone over 16 living in Scotland to vote, unlike the EU referendum which excluded one large group living in the UK from voting.

Really Jamba? Like who?

Well there are people of all nationalities who do have a vote as they are enjoying all the benefits of living in Scotland.

Out of interest Gordi, how did the 16-18s vote and should the older generation respect their decision?

But you can't have it both ways

you can easily con people into thinking that is what they are getting though.

The indy referendum allowed everyone over 16 living in Scotland to vote, unlike the EU referendum which excluded one large group living in the UK from voting.

No it didn't, lots of people were excluded who live in Scotland

really - who big and daft? - and please tell me - do you live in Scotland?

Imagine if 70% of them voted to remain part of a union but their elders preferred to ignore them and agitate for the opposite result and to withdraw them from the same union. Imagine what that would feel like.

Imagine too how they would feel if non-Scots came and voted against their wishes.

Nice to see this still going nowhere, interesting voter map

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/132687

Imagine too how they would feel if non-Scots came and voted against their wishes.

[img] [/img]

Big and daft - are you going to answer? Do you live in England or Scotland? the reason I ask is your knowledge of what is happening in scotland seems to come solely from the right wing english press

I'd also like you to answer "who do you think was denied a vote in the last indepoendence referendum?" as you claimed many folk living in scotland were denied a vote

So we have complaints that, instead of the 13 ships mooted before the referendum, Glasgow shipyards are only getting 18 ships instead (13 firm, 5 probable)...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37871888

Imagine too how they would feel if non-Scots came and voted against their wishes.

You mean like all the people who live here but who don't hold UK passports or are english born that had a vote in the independence referendum? They were welcomed because by living here they had a stake in the outcome therefore should have a say. People like my Danish friend who runs a small business in Edinburgh employing 4 folk. People like my dutch friend who has a small farm. People like me - english born but long time resident. We all rightfully got a vote

this is one of the things folk fail to grasp. We are the people of scotland and " it doesn't matter where you come from as a person, what matters is where we are going as a country"

[quote=scotroutes > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37871888
br />

Interesting - it appears that Nicola's posturing is potentially threatening jobs in Scotland...

...or Westminsters failure to deliver on its pledges is potentially threatening the union...

Those pledges were of course predicated on Scotland staying in the union - if it's now threatening not to, then how surprising is it that the UK government is reconsidering it's position on spending its money supporting jobs somewhere where the taxes on the wages it's paying won't be coming back to it by the end of the contract? You seem to have it backwards - the threat to the union came before the reconsideration of this particular pledge.

So in order to persuade us to stay they're going to take away our work to teach us a lesson?

Sounds like the kind of relationship it's best to get the hell out of.

Big and daft - can yo answer the questions put to you or do we assume you are talking out of your hat?

[quote=BruceWee ]So in order to persuade us to stay they're going to take away our work to teach us a lesson?

You still don't get it do you? This has nothing to do with teaching you a lesson, it's all about the practical politics of spending government money somewhere which may not be paying taxes back to that government. This is the real world, not playground games.

You still don't get it do you? This has nothing to do with teaching you a lesson, it's all about the practical politics of spending government money somewhere which may not be paying taxes back to that government. This is the real world, not playground games.

And you still don't get it, do you? Scotland often finds itself treated like Westminster's playground.

QED

Yes - and in the real world those ships were a solemn promise if we voted no. Just another broken promise

UK government orders for the supply ships went to South Korea. Do the workers there pay tax in the uk?

Lots of defence spending is outside the UK - the only reason so much of it is inside the UK is because they pay their taxes here, a point which undoubtedly applies to these shipbuilding contracts.

There's possibly an argument that a country should keep essential skills in industries like shipbuilding but I can't see how the tax argument stands up at all when the UK government awards contracts to overseas shipbuilders.
Still the main point is promised 13 two years ago now it's 8. Anyone betting against further reductions before the contract is completed?

the only reason so much of it is inside the UK is because they pay their taxes here

Is it? I thought it was because it was policy for anything with 'sensitive' equipment within to only be built within the UK.

8 sort of promised but no contracts signed yet

[quote=gordimhor ]I can't see how the tax argument stands up at all when the UK government awards contracts to overseas shipbuilders.

So if a single bolt is bought from outside the UK, the argument that we procure stuff within the UK because that results in UK jobs and money recirculating fails? Or if not a single bolt, just how much would you have to procure from outside the UK - 10 bolts? a batch of steel? 1 ship out of 100?

It's a laughable argument given why we're discussing it!

Those E3Ds I once did some work on must be a figment of my imagination then, km79.

That's a 450 million pound bolt aracer.

Now we're just haggling over the price.

Not really just pointing out the scale of the contracts the UK has already given to other countries. Meantime the same government which you say is wise to break its promise to build 13ships on the Clyde in case we become independent, is telling us that we won't be allowed to have a legally binding referendum anyway

At least Westminster is showing its true colours, I remember the love bombing; I felt so special! Like I mattered...where did it all go? Oh yes;we voted to stay! Aracer; you seem to be arguing that we should be grateful for what we have,smaller order; delayed and with an opt out clause that,bearing in mind the overseas tendering, is nothing more than a threat to Scotland?

In the long term, being ruled by incompetents will cost more than any amount of ship building orders.

Sums up the Nats in a. Nutshell

What was offered? 13 ships
Whtt was delivered? 18 ships
What was the response? Wah, wah, life's not fair, you are breakingn your promises

No really!! The next thing people who argue that Scotland suffers because of the overall level of defence spending in the UK will be up in arms.

At least the Navy will always be able to know which Frigates were made in Scotland. When they turn the engines off, they will still be able to hear the whining.

Have we done the Bernard Ponsonby interview?

So what can we take from that? That the ships will be built on the Clyde, with or without Scottish independence. Because BAE aren't daft, they'd never sign a contract with a get-out Scottish Independence clause. No company with half a brain would, especially not a multinational arms company who knows that no-one else can build these ships. And there's nowhere else in the UK they could be built, not without insane levels of investment.

THM coming into a forum to moan about Scots moaning,downgraded because he forgot a hastag. Sums up little Englanders in a nutshell. Good you are coming up here next week, be yourself; it will add a couple of % to the yes vote next time.

aracer - Member
BruceWee » So in order to persuade us to stay they're going to take away our work to teach us a lesson?
You still don't get it do you? This has nothing to do with teaching you a lesson, it's all about the practical politics of spending government money somewhere which may not be paying taxes back to that government. This is the real world, not playground games.

And there you have it.

In the real world the only answer to that is to have a government which is directly accountable to the people of the country, not one in another country which may or may not drip bounty your way.

Aracer has given us a good case for independence.

Link to back up your claim about number of ships thm

THM coming into a forum to moan about Scots

..misrepresenting the truth

Sums up little Englanders in a nutshell.

Yes, prefer truth to BS. If that makes us little, what does that say about you guys?

Good you are coming up here next week, be yourself; it will add a couple of % to the yes vote next tim

Thank you, so spending money in Scotland adds votes to yes. You argument gets worse by the day. Fortunately staying with educated Scots who all voted with their heads and their children whose views the SNP wish to ignore.

Of course, gordi. I will post the links in return for an answer to my question about how did 16-17 votes and what do you think their reaction is to the the way their votes/opinions are now being treated.

Sums up little Englanders in a nutshell.

Yes, prefer truth to BS

Little Englanders prefer truth to BS while Scots prefer BS to truth?

How's this preferring truth working out for you so far this year?

trouble is what THM keeps calling bullshit he has been proven wrong and called out on multiple times. But his mixture of arrogance and ignorance means he cannot accept this.

[img] ?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=1ecd141d966484cb11756be39b583149[/img]

trouble is what THM keeps calling bullshit he has been proven wrong and called out on multiple times. But his mixture of arrogance and ignorance means he cannot

Says a guy who gets picked up for posting false things on a daily basis.

BrucE - it is interesting (or worrying when you talk about polls) that you basically have two polls. Ascrofts based in a smaller survey and the YouGov on a bigger one, giving different really. YouGov gives 16-17 preferring remaining in the Union, but Ashcroft is much stronger verdict in opposite direct - albeit off a smaller sample. Weird.

It's not wrong just different. Genuinely surprised to have two polls with different results and markedly so.

Na - I think its all about self esteem. Looks pretty obvious from where I sit. However I am getting into dangerous territorial here - beware the banhammer. I block him as his posts had no value but just irritate- I suggest you others either do the same or report him every time he makes his racial slurs, personal insults or malicious trolls