[Closed] School Bullying Advice

bump in case this is still a thing on the forum

From a teacher's point of view, and having seen/dealt with similar over the years...

1) Make head of year & tutor aware. They can have a word with the girls and make boundaries clear.

2) tell her to not engage at all. They'll get bored and move on.

3) in no circumstances to hit or fight, especially first, as bullies will have no qualms about running to authority and shouting victim. She will get in trouble, not them.

4) ask her to keep you in the loop. A problem shared, and all that.

5) if you know the parents, and they aren't arseholes, then try having a polite conversation with them. If they're likely to get shouty or aggressive, then don't bother.

Is it just your daughter having the problems or is it others in the alternative group? And is it physical bullying or verbal?

Teachers need to be aware this is going on, doesn't have to be a drama or involve parents. There should be a staff member your daughter can go to. If nothing else, if your daughter does have to defend herself, the school will be aware that there is a back story.

What @ajantom said.

I really like what @ajantom said. But do stay on top of it. I hate bullying, and when I was working in a sixth form, had less than zero tolerance for it. No kid should ever have to dread getting up in the morning and going about their life, no matter what style/sexuality/intelligence/whatever they are or are perceived to be.

Good luck!

Tell her to ignore them,theyll get bored and pick on somebody else, blocking them is a good idea, and report to school just incase something serious happens.

From experience with my son coming out and the way the girls in his year treated him (her at the time)

Report to school. Be positive and diligent at keeping notes and events but don't expect anything to be done immediately (not a criticism)  The school will have a process that you aren't involved in and that takes time, starting with the kids being spoken to, and escalating as needed. Be prepared for that, if you go in demanding a public execution the first time you raise it you're going to be disappointed and make enemies of the school as well.

I'll add a 6) to my list...

6) as the otherjonv said, don't expect immediate results. Schools often seem to move at glacial pace, but things will be moving, just under the surface.
We need to gather evidence, and make sure we know exactly what is going on, as unfortunately, some kids do lie/exaggerate/make stuff up.
The safety of the pupils is paramount, but that includes the bullies too, they might be acting like arseholes,but they're still children.

Hidden camera ?. Produce some actual evidence for the school to witness.
Obviously there might be some issue with filming teenagers, but if its the daughter thats doing it, then presenting the evidence, that might circumnavigate any legal issue the school might try to present.

Hidden camera ?. Produce some actual evidence for the school to witness.
Obviously there might be some issue with filming teenagers, but if its the daughter thats doing it, then presenting the evidence, that might circumnavigate any legal issue the school might try to present

This is a really staggeringly bad idea.

Hidden camera

Bad idea on so many levels.
Would break many of the school's codes of conduct, and is potentially illegal.

Definitely ignore but make staff aware. Work with and support staff you'll get much more value from them.

You know your daughter best so its difficult to comment, but my thoughts are :
Is she quiet and artistic, or outgoing and gregarious? In my experience, the youngsters who place themselves in the alternative camp tend to fall int o one of these stereotypes. How you help her handle the situation depends on her personality.
For example, both my daughters were raised to see the world as an awesome but sometimes dark place, and have absolutely no problem in giving it back verbally. My son was raised in exactly the same way but wouldnt say boo to a goose, there would be no point encouraging him to fight his corner, its just not his nature.
It would be my tendency to tell my daughters to face the bullying head on and destroy the bullies by making them look a fool in front of their peers, as I know they would have at least a 50% chance of success, and would be bang up for it.My boy though, I would be more inclined to intervene as he is just not wired that way and would probably suffer worse abuse for trying to sort it himself and fail.
I think that good advice has been given in regards making the teachers at the school aware, but as a target of bullying in the past, unfortunately the only advice I could give is that the only cure for bullying is to front them up head on and engage them . It was the only thing that made them respect me and own their actions. Some time teasing can go too far and it takes the teased to show the teasers just how much it bothers them . Some might be shocked that the teasing is causing that much of an effect on someone, as to them its just a bit of banter, and will stop immediately. However, some people are just pricks and will not take the hint. That is where I would intervene, once that line had been crossed.
Bit longwinded way of saying you know your daughter best and will probably instinctively know the right course of action for her, but if violence was ever inflicted upon any of my children I would not hesitate to defend them to the hilt, whether they wanted it ornot.

As a Head of Year, I have nothing to add to ajantom's advice. Spot on. As well as helping to protect your kid, this adds to the year team's overall picture - the bullying students will not just be picking on your daughter...

And whatever you do, do not follow dyna-ti's suggestion...

13 yr old girls are evil. I think Alan's points all make sense, but just to add:

1) Make head of year & tutor aware. They can have a word with the girls and make boundaries clear.

it sounds like you are in Scotland. The titles might be different but the school will have people assigned to each group to have responsibility for this sort of stuff. Where we are each "house" has a pupil support teacher. This seems to be a similar role that was called a guidance teacher when I was at school; there may also be head of year, head of house etc - but everything ultimately comes back to the pupil support teacher who is allocated time to sort stuff like this. The most important lesson your daughter can learn is to knock on their door and ask to have a chat. That's quite a leap for most 13 yr olds. I promise you though once she does - almost without doing anything else she'll feel better (if nothing happens that's the time for you to go see someone).

And whatever you do, do not follow dyna-ti’s suggestion…

I wasnt suggesting he follows it, I was saying his daughter does it.
What then is the difference to her or her friend filming it on a phone. Says so in that post.

There have been many cases reported on the national news from vids uploaded to twitter, where bullying has been filmed by the bullies and also by other pupils, which resulted in the school and sometimes the police becoming aware of the horrendous actions of bullies towards their victims. Some have even resulted in criminal action being taken.

Depends on the school policy for phones if nothing else.

At our school, students don't have their phones with them during the school day.

Either way, it's not a good idea. Looks like working against the school (or at least trying to subvert their approach) rather than with it. That's without any potential GDPR concerns if the footage is used publicly, especially if the camera/phone is "hidden".

In ten years of being a Head of Year / Head of House, I've never dealt with an incidence of bullying that would have been helped by covert filming evidence (although admittedly school CCTV is useful in some cases). I might just be lucky though.

@grantyboy,
Define what you mean by a bit of grief mate. Is it just mild teasing, hardcore physical intimidation or somewhere in between? The way you handle it will probably have to vary depending on which end of the spectrum it is.
Any physical intimidation or threats of out of school violence gets stamped on, **** the fact that the other side are only teenagers. There is a youth detention centre just up the road from me and a large prison a little further on, rammed with "only teenagers" who are there for stabbing and killing other teenagers. Quite a few of my friends work in these places and they emphasise that you cannot comprehend how bad some of these young teens and late teens can be and their total disregard for their victims.
On the other hand, a bit of name calling or teasing is just part of teens working out their pecking order, I wouldnt go steaming in all guns blazing. Sticks and stones, and all that.
However, I think the important thing here is how upset your daughter is getting. If she is just mildly irritated then I would just let it work itself out, it could be character building to an extent,byt if it is really affecting her then I would definitely escalate my reaction accordingly.
I take the opinion that my children have as much right to happiness in this world as anyone else, irrespective of what some little scrotes who havent learnt the rules of respecting others think. If their happiness is somehow compromised , and I am in a position to help, I will do my best to do just that, should they want that. If not, I will observe the situation with interest and let them know my help is there should tbey need any.

I wasnt suggesting he follows it, I was saying his daughter does it.
What then is the difference to her or her friend filming it on a phone. Says so in that post.

Teachers spend vast amounts of time dealing with the fall out of kids photographing and filming each other. It's a massive issue with really wide repercussions and the fact that it's a child rather than an adult doing it doesn't make that go away.

I've seen the advice to secretly film turning up as advice in a few contexts on here and it is almost always a really really bad idea and far more likely to make matters worse than better.

There have been many cases reported on the national news from vids uploaded to twitter, where bullying has been filmed by the bullies and also by other pupils

This is far more likely to be part of the problem than a solution and there's a big difference between acting on existing video evidence and advising children to gather it surreptitiously.

Lots of kids, even smart ones, really struggle with understanding appropriate use of phones and social media. Advising a kid to secretly film opens that can of worms and puts them and those around them in a difficult situation which they may not have the maturity to handle.

Even police forces get into trouble from time to time over covert filming etc, what makes you think kids are going to be able to handle it?

Seriously, it's a daft idea, stop defending it.

I read threads like this, look back to my time in school and I'm so glad I don't have kids.

Right little shits, ain't they.

We have had a similar situation with FBG and it has taken a long time to get tot the point where we feel the school is taking it seriously.

However I suspect more has been going on behind the scenes and the school has to give fairly bland responses as they have to be seen to be acting fairly, not taking sides, not giving us any amunition to start a personal campaign against the family of the other child etc.

It is hard though and it is frustrating but do involve the school and do so in writing so there is a good record of what you feel has been happening.

We also encouraged FBG to report very single incident as and when it happened to his class teacher as well.

Ex wife is wanting to run up to the school ang get teachers involved

Your wife seems to be the sensible one here. If the school's even half good, they'll want to deal with bullying even more swiftly than you do. Let them help

Schools often seem to move at glacial pace,

Not much to add but in big schools you sometimes need to go on making a pain of yourself until doing something about it is the easy option for you. Pastoral care teams often have to deal with parents complaining about fleeting events (kids at that age fall in and out on a daily basis) sometimes it takes them a while to distinguish between the two and assume things will settle down.

Right little shits, ain’t they.

Yes and no. Humans are shits. School is the one period for many of us when we are stuck in the mire with all and sundry. That person who was a shit as a kid and will often be a shit as an adult is your equal when you are a kid. For many of us with a bit about us we can lift ourselves out of that mire into more sane company. We have the ability to (within reason) work where we want, live where we want and socialise with who we want. With a bit of success you get that karmic satisfaction of not employing the adult shit because they are flying their shit flag at interview. Or sacking the shit for being a shit. Not giving your business to someone because they are a shit. Or giving the shit an even shitter job if they are your subordinate. Or telling the shit who you work for to do one safe in the knowledge you have the ability to find alternative work relatively easily.

Kids don't have that power at school. Spare a thought also for those who by circumstance or ability don't have the opportunity to escape the shits later in life too.

Spare a thought also for those who by circumstance or ability don’t have the opportunity to escape the shits later in life too.

You could just close the STW tab on your browser 🙂

From the perspective of someone who was bullied for 5 years at secondary school both verbally and physically my bullying suffering eventually ended after one horrible episode where the central ‘cool kid’ punched a bottle I was drinking from into my mouth, mushing my gums with plenty of blood. It was the final straw and I grabbed him by the throat, pushed him through the tables to the other side of the classroom and banged his face against the tables there. I wasn’t bullied again and did not care about the detention that came with it. F*ck bullies. Your daughter has my empathy. Those 5 years of bus trips to and from school, of dinner time taunts and fights, of snide comments and actions in class and queuing for lessons were horrible.

2) tell her to not engage at all. They’ll get bored and move on.

That's optimistic.

and did not care about the detention that came with it

Sadly these days it's more likely to be suspension or exclusion with the bullies walking away punishment free. I too got involved in a fracas when I was at school which culminated me in booting a door shut on another kid's head. He just got told that would teach him to bully other kids. It would be a very different conversation today

I tried to shove one bullies eye into a spiked railing. Fortunately for all concerned I didn't manage it.

I took a swing with a bass guitar at another bully that would have broken the bass and his ribs if it had connected. I got left alone after that.

It never even occured to me to tell the school or my parents.

Tell the school.

Tell the school again of it happens again....

And repeat.

The school will be full of trained professionals who deal with this all the time. They might not get something done immediately and permanently the first time, so help out if the bullies keep it up.

If something happens now it means you are less likely to put your daughter in a fraught position later.

No one should have to put up with bullying and I bet that's the schools position as well.

2) tell her to not engage at all. They’ll get bored and move on.

That’s optimistic.

Used alongside the other advice it can help though.

Bullies tend to have very short attention spans.

This comes from personal experience as a bullied child, and as a relatively experienced teacher.

If you react, get angry, fight back, whatever, they've won. They WANT a reaction, they want the victim to lose their shit, that's the 'game' unfortunately.

As a kid I used to react, badly, so it continued for years. It was only when I learnt to ignore and walk that it eventually stopped.

My school was also terrible at dealing with it "man up, shake hands", that kind of garbage. Luckily schools and the education profession take it a lot more seriously nowadays.

dyna-ti - do you really not see the difference between someone covertly recording and someone openly doing it? Often it's the bullies or their "friends" that do the recording in those clips that go on social media - the recording and sharing is part of the bullying. It really isn't the best way to de-escalate it.

Bullies tend to have very short attention spans

Something I find a bit overly simplistic in these discussions is the way 'bullies' are often referred to as if they were a breed apart. As if it were as simple there being two distinct groups of people, bullies and those who get bullied.

Obviously there are people who could be characterized in that way, they bully others as kids and carry that through into adulthood but I think that's pretty rare.

The situation in schools is often far more complex than that with a shifting pattern of behaviour. For example, there were times when I was bullied at school but I now recognise that I also did some bullying myself.

There are also plenty of kids out there for whom bullying behaviour could be a reflection of something difficult in their lives. That doesn't get them off the hook but let's be careful to condemn bullying behaviour but not be too quick to condemn individual as bullies.

From a teacher’s point of view, and having seen/dealt with similar over the years…
...
3) in no circumstances to hit or fight, especially first, as bullies will have no qualms about running to authority and shouting victim. She will get in trouble, not them.

From the point of view of someone who was systematically bullied for three years for the joint crimes of being small and nerdy:

I didn't fight back because in my head I "didn't want to hurt anyone" like that was going to happen at nine stone wet through. I wriggled and I ran and I was very good at both of those things, if you can't keep hold of me and you can't catch me then Result, I don't get a kicking today. Being able to outpace the rest of the school over a standing 40 yards got me through high school, after that distance they'd get bored and pick on the fat kid instead.

I went to parents, I went to teachers, nothing worked for me to stop it until one day the red mist finally descended and I knocked the ever-loving snot out of one of them.

I despise bullies to the core of my being and I have zero tolerance for it; I'm convinced that one day it'll get me killed.

There are plenty of kids out there for whom bullying behaviour could be a reflection of something difficult in their lives. That doesn’t get them off the hook but let’s be careful to condemn bullying behaviour but not be too quick to condemn individual as bullies.

I agree; I think there's also a distinction to be made between being the ringleaders and the participants. It's easy as adults to say not to be involved, or indeed to stand up to it (I know I do, eg: I've said that we have to challenge sexism or racism where we see it and ignoring it makes us complicit) But it can be hard and harder still as a fringe kid where if you don't join in with the herd, you'll instead become a victim of them.

My son was being bullied by girls in his year (her year as was) but under the coercion of two really nasty girls. They rarely got their hands dirty but instead used others to do their dirty work. It took some time for the school to break down the chain of bullying and get to the ringleaders and to make a difference, hence why I say that you have as a parent to be determined with the school, but also patient.

As it happens, my wife works at the same school and the HoY knew exactly who was involved but knowing and building enough evidence to take direct action is not the same thing and does take time.

(From the perspective of the mum of a 13 yo daughter and as a survivor of high school bullying) I’d also add to do all you can to make your daughter feel like she’s a wonderful and valid human being just as she is and wants to be. Enduring day after day of horror at school is awful. You can alleviate that (while hopefully the school does something about it) by helping her have confidence in herself and helping her pursue the things she loves. Small stuff like being a bit extra helpful about providing transport to meet friends, or indulging a haircut that you might prefer she didn’t have, can go a long way.

There are plenty of kids out there for whom bullying behaviour could be a reflection of something difficult in their lives. That doesn’t get them off the hook but let’s be careful to condemn bullying behaviour but not be too quick to condemn individual as bullies.

I agree also. I met up with one of my primary antagonists years later (at a school reunion maybe three years ago now) and finally made peace. He had a troubled childhood I was unaware of and he had no recollection of any of the trauma he put me through.

But that would've been little solace to 13-year old me at the time, sat in the dentist's chair having my two front teeth rebuilt.

Bullies tend to have very short attention spans.

This comes from personal experience as a bullied child, and as a relatively experienced teacher.

I still think that's a very optimistic view. It doesn't work like that. They're not just doing it to get a reaction, they're doing it so that they're part of a group.

My sister opted to enroll her 2 boys in Karate from a young age. They're both in their early 20's now and 2nd dan black belts, with one working as an assistant sensi in a local club. Far as im aware they never had any problems at school.

Just an option maybe.

On the subject of bullies motivations, it's often 'just a bit of fun' that they soon forget about. For those of us on the receiving end the effects are long lasting and it shows that those experiences are surfacing in here (myself included).

Pigeon holing all bullies with the same response (ignore them + tell the teacher) is also too easy. Some need a good aggressive response to stop it. Some need intervention. Some need excluding from the environment. For my tormentors, non of the reports to teachers did anything so I had to take matters into my own hands.

My sister opted to enroll her 2 boys in Karate from a young age...Far as im aware they never had any problems at school.

Your advice is just the gift that keeps on giving. 🙂

For my tormentors, non of the reports to teachers did anything so I had to take matters into my own hands.

When were you at school though, in my experience (as a pupil and now a parent) schools are way better now at dealing with it.

When were you at school though, in my experience (as a pupil and now a parent) schools are way better now at dealing with it.

Very much this.

@grantyboy - Your daughter may also try speaking to someone like Childline just for some support. I was a Childline counsellor and this is exactly the sort of thing they are excellent at helping kids through. She may hate the idea but they now have an online chat service as well as the phone which may suit her better.

It's not going to fix the actual bullying but could well give her some emotional support from an impartial third party.

thanks for all the input from all the different angles. As a single dad it's very much appreciated.

I've asked my daughter to have a quiet word in her guidance teachers ear so they are aware of the back story. Also to keep a low profile and actively just keep out the road of the 'it' girls. We are coming up to the school holidays so I'm hoping this all blows over with the low profile and holidays combined

If it is more verbal bullying then do what you can to let her know that what they are saying isn't true and that they are just saying anything to upset her. It's amazing how well some of those bullying comments can get stuck in the head and you can start to believe them.

All the advise above from the teachers sounds good and its great that schools are a lot more involved nowadays.

Your advice is just the gift that keeps on giving. 🙂

And your advice is, well you haven't actually as yet managed to suggest any advice, or suggestions or anything for that matter. You do like singling my comments out through, and all im trying to do is offer help.

Now you have a problem with her being enrolled in some sort of self defence class. Just where are you coming from 😕

And your advice is, well you haven’t actually as yet managed to suggest any advice

You need to go back and read again, Spin's offered some decent insight, depends on your interpretation whether it's advice or not but that would be being particularly pedantic.

But you don't need to offer 'advice' to still be justified in pointing out that secretly filming kids is a shite idea.

OTOH - your karate advice is a good suggestion; not so they can go all great vengeance and furious anger, but just the discipline and control that it could bring her as a means of being able to walk away from it.

No it's to do with self esteem and how a bullied child feels about themself. I got my share of it as a kid but i can also handle myself and usually got into at least a couple of fight as week, and always a stalemate, to the point people didnt engage me. Certainly the harder individuals wouldnt go beyond a few nasty words, and this is a Glasgow school covering some pretty rough areas. I did Judo (blue belt before i left) But I could fight anyway, mainly from being forced to defe4nd myself(seems to be a habit even now eh 😕 )
Social media and the papers have plenty of reports of incidents being recorded, including one currently in the news concerning this exact same thing, a couple of nasty girls beating on one girl victim.
I would suggest the outcome of that will have a more positive effect, due it its high profile, than just pretending the school really cares about bullying, and effectively hoping it just dies down.
This however doesnt leave much room and puts the entire onus on the victim.
'Keep your head down' 'dont engage' even to the point of avoid going out at play or lunchtime' so where does that end ?, again it ends with the victim more prone to lasting self esteem and loss of confidence issues.
If actually providing factual evidence isnt your cup of tea, then fighting back is another option, and i would suggest a strong one at that.
Children, especially girls brood on these problems,and that can and does lead to problems in later life.
Enrolled in a self defence class would offer a chance at rebuilding confidence, and im surprised, or even shocked that 'spin' and others cannot see it from that angle.

I've seen what lack of confidence does.
One of my nephews had issues with being smaller than his classmates, and that really worried him even though he was preteen and wouldnt accept he would grow and fill out. Now he's 6'1", pretty solid from years studying karate, and goes to the gym 3 or 4 times a week, has the GF and finished his economics degree in the top 3. He's currently embarking on a 2nd degree in law.
Had we did what is being suggested and do next to nothing, these childhood fears could well have affected him in later life, and he wouldnt be the very confident individual he is now. At the time these fear really upset my nephew and it was hard to watch, despite offering all positives you can.
My sister took positive action. Placed them into the gym, karate and did all to boost his confidence in himself, and it has paid off handsomely.

yes, I would say without a shadow of a doubt placing a bullied teen in a self defence class would regain that lost confidence and help her to grow and develop mentally, and be better for it.

This is of course just my opinion, no need to bully me constantly over it, quoting every point with nothing but derision for daring to make a suggestion. you disagree fine. At least offer a solution, and feel confident i am not going to return the favour so to speak. short answers without any substance to them arent solutions to a problem, just superficial maybe's.

Enough said, its not about me, so i'd prefer it wasnt made such.

The problem with squaring up to bullies so they "go pick on someone else" isn't fair to other kids.

The schools have an obligation to deal with it, which they are getting better with nowadays. You have to go through procedures. A lot of parents unfortunately are telling their kids to bully other kids so they don't get bullied themselves (this may very well be region/social class limited) and many bullies have problems at home that need exposing and dealing with. Reporting could trigger intervention there. Change is needed, not harsh exclusion which can amplify the bully's behaviour.

Sometimes it fails for unusual reasons. Anecdotal: Had a girl at my kid's primary school bullying loads of kids. Report after report went in, but nothing was done. Parents started hitting each other in the playground with bats. Turned out the girl's mother worked in admin and the school got confused about their course of action.

My sister opted to enroll her 2 boys in Karate from a young age…Far as im aware they never had any problems at school.

Worked for me when bullied at school

Now you have a problem with her being enrolled in some sort of self defence class. Just where are you coming from

My apologies, my comment on your karate suggestion was critical without explanation which is poor form.

Whether it's bad advice or not depends on why you're suggesting it. It looked like you were suggesting using it to fight bullies which is poor advice as it sounds like the bullying in question isn't physical violence and for the OP's child to escalate it to that is likely to make matters worse.

If you're suggesting it as an activity to improve confidence etc then there's no harm in that but it would rather depend on the kid actually liking karate!

I got bullied a bit at school. As an adult with nearly 20 years to reflect on the situation I wish I'd just pushed the bully down the stairs when I had the opportunity, and I consider myself pretty laid back.

Appreciate this isn't the advice you or the school want to hear.

When I was bullied by a child at school for a year, I lost it and beat the excrement out of him. He never did it again. The head teacher had to discipline me of course. But he called my mother to say that was going to do so, but personally, he was pleased that I was sticking up for myself. I should add that unbeknown to me until years later (when he would still thrash me at squash), he always looked out for me because my father had died in a road accident a couple of years earlier.

When my own son was bullied, we let the school deal with it. I think social rather than physical bullying is probably more insidious and likely harder to address by my method.

When were you at school though, in my experience (as a pupil and now a parent) schools are way better now at dealing with it.

Ok yeah it was the 90s. But those kids doing the bullying may just go harder as you have ratted on them.

My intention was to point out that not all bullies are the same with the same motivation. School intervention may help. But then it may not. I'd be interested in how schools approach this sort of thing now as my boy starts school next week and is the youngest in the year and we are a small family. Might be a route we can take to hear off the bullying before it starts.