TLDR version - how do I go about negotiating salary other than saying "err can I have a bit more money please?". If they come back saying they can't break their salary structure do I ask for a golden hello? Should I even ask them to appoint me at the next role level up seeing as they really want me and I have quite a bit of experience. Do I do this by email or phone? I'm not very good at being pushy and I don't really like conflict but I think I have some good cards. Context below:
I applied for a new job recently as I am on a fixed term contract in academia coming to an end because the funding is ending. The position is in an adjacent industry. There is quite a lot of this sort of work about, but to get into most companies they want a year or two of experience in that industry, so to get my foot in the door I applied to an entry level position.
The hiring team did a preliminary email asking me my salary requirements, which I did at a level that was already a substantial pay cut from academia but in line with the field (I have a redundancy pay off to take the edge off this). The HR team told me that wasn't going to happen, here's the start of the salary band for this level role, are you still interested? To which I said yes as I wanted to at least get some interview practice. So I've kind of shafted myself there but seems like I still have wiggle room within the band.
I had second job interview last week which was a complete formality, they were really keen on me, it seems like I'm a great fit for the role. The company, the people and the work all seem good to me so I want the job, but want a bit more money to sweeten the deal.
My leverage: 1) They seem to need someone with my research expertise. I've been in academia a long time, I've no doubt that I'll be by far the most experienced candidate they'll have, and my experience is very applicable.
2) They seem to want someone ASAP. I've told them I have a 1 month notice period, but am actually already enjoying redundancy
3) I guess the fact I'm already taking a big pay cut is in my favour.
4) I've told them I have some other opportunities I need to juggle, which is kind of true. There's a research grant in my old department just been awarded and there's a position on it I'd have a very strong chance of getting, which would be on much better money. But it's only just been awarded and won't even be advertised for minimum a month, and won't start until September.
The HR contact I've been interacting with has a tactic of sending a friendly email asking how things went after the interviews, pretending she hadn't yet spoken to the team who interviewed me. After the second one I said I'd expected her email to be an offer of employment when I'd seen her email address pop up, and could she please let me know early next week so that I could manage my other opportunities without messing anyone around. This was Friday afternoon and she had phoned me (I missed the call) and then sent a written offer within an hour of my emailing her, so that kind of shows that they want me and I've called their bluff.
I think depends very much on the company. Larger companies can be very structured around their salary bands and while a hiring manager might have some discretion for the right candidate it'll only be a bit. Do you know the actual band or did they just give you the starting point and the 'not gonna happen' response to your request?
What field are you in? I wouldn't gamble too much on being the only candidate with experience, as you've found out some academia is really downsizing now and while they've offered you doesn't mean there aren't other potentials. I wouldn't see it as 'calling their bluff' - they're unlikely to find an entry level position hard to fill so they might be keen on you, that's not the same as not being able to find someone suitable.
For negotiating - I think they'll be expecting some counter within reason, how far short of your expectation are they? You say it's a job that all seems good with, and assume it's a permanent role rather than series of contracts in academia, see it as part of a longer game with progression as you show your value, etc.
Good news is that before you've joined is the right time to be doing this. Bad part is that you have gone through the recruitment process fully aware of the salary structure and also have signalled keenness by regular following up, so your 'really not bothered at that salary' carries less weight, imho.
"Love the job, but having now been in the job market, it's clear my market value is X. Because I really want to work with you, ill be willing to accept Y."
difficult to play these games without being willing to walk away though! I suspect you'll be told 'job band sez no'
The HR team told me that wasn't going to happen, here's the start of the salary band for this level role, are you still interested? To which I said yes
That was the time to say no IMO.
I think that the best that you could get at the moment would be an agreement to an early salary/performance review at 3-6 months, but it’s unlikely to bump you up that much.
if they are working within a band, and you were earning more than the top end of that band before, you are perfectly within your rights to ask for the highest salary increment within that band. That is normal practice and, as a hiring manager, something that I would fully support.
if they are working within a band, and you were earning more than the top end of that band before, you are perfectly within your rights to ask for the highest salary increment within that band. That is normal practice and, as a hiring manager, something that I would fully support.
yep, I’ve done that before. Offered the bottom of the band as I was starting with the organisation. Asked for the top as a condition.
“Oh I’m not sure we can do that, but I’ll ask”
Within an hour they said yes.
I think you've already shown your hand TBH.
Typically when (on the rare occasions) a job advert lists a salary range, what that means is that the lower figure is what you will be starting on and the higher one is the upper boundary of what you'll ever earn in that role, inflation aside. If you are going to negotiate then you'll need to give them justification, not least because in all likelihood they will have to justify any deviation from the baseline offer to their management.
difficult to play these games without being willing to walk away though!
This.
Not sure how typical my company is, but when we have to take someone at a higher salary than would be typical for the role, then that ends up being adjusted over the years - e.g. at annual review those judged to be 'higher' than they should get less and those 'lower' than they should get more to normalise everything out in the name of fairness.
PS. Been there done that on taking a pay cut moving from academia to industry. They always justify it as moving from fixed term contract to a 'permanent' job - which is somewhat laughable in the biotech industry.
Don’t over complicate it. Phone the manager who hired you (or HR needed, but line manager is better), “really keen on the role but it really needs to be £xx,xxx to make the move. Can we make this happen”.
You don’t need to justify your position, you just need to ask. You’ll get 1 or 3 outcomes, yes, no, or no but can can do £xx,xxx. You then have a decision to make. There’s no shame if they say no is still accepting.
Thats what I’d do anyway, and I work in HR hiring people for a living
Key to having any chance of success is being genuinely willing to walk away.
I try and factor in an amount of leeway if the job is really appealing to me but you have to have a walk-away price.
In pure market terms I'm currently underpaid for the job I took last year however I'd never get an opportunity like the one I was offered however I still asked for a fair whack more than I was on in the previous role as there was an element of risk to the move.
Had they not offered my that bottom line figure I would not have took the job.
here's the start of the salary band for this level role, are you still interested? To which I said yes
That was the time to say no IMO.
The key thing is what the end of the salary band is. The start of it is utterly immaterial to you at present. If the top of the band is less that you'd take, and they told you the top of the band earlier in the process then you're just being a **** 🙂
I think that the best that you could get at the moment would be an agreement to an early salary/performance review at 3-6 months,
No no no. I've done this before and got nowhere. Your best chance to negotiate is now
Theyve sent you an offer, respond with a counter offer.
I've recruited twice in the past 12 months. Both times the successful candidates negotiated to start at the top increment in the salary band. I did the same when I got my job. Most sensible recruiting managers understand what people are worth and will do the best for them.
You haven't shafted yourself by saying you're interested in the job still. Being interested is not the same as accepting. You should know your value, including what you offer above the level of the role. But they're not likely to offer you the level above if that job isn't free.
You should be asking for near top of band if that's your skill level, then add that if they can match that you'd be prepared to start earlier.
Ta for advice
I think the reality is that I'm not really prepared to walk away (I'm already redundant and most of my options are back in academia where I'll be on fixed term contract again), so I can't really take the mick.
I'll see if I can get to the top increment of the band.
They won't withdraw the offer just for asking, so you've really nothing to lose.
already a substantial pay cut from academia
Oh dear. Still, if that’s the least you’re happy to work for at least you have a starting point for negotiation.
all they seem to have given you is the starting salary for the band. Presumably this wasn’t ridiculous as you would have said ‘ha ha ha you are kidding right’?
The next step could be to ask, as folks have suggested, for more. ‘I understand that’s the lower bound of the salary band. Given my experience and our mutual interest in me starting as soon as possible, what more can you add to that in salary and benefits’?
Some folks have mentioned upper bounds. Common in public service. In companies I have worked in there were no formal upper bounds on bands. This allowed for flexibility in hiring and avoided missing good, expensive, candidates for specific roles just because e.g. a salary band had not been adjusted for market effects.
I used the ‘OK, what more can you do’ approach to get an extra 15% over an already acceptable offer. It dragged things out a bit. There was no ultimatum or conflict, just a bit of broken record repetition and simple querying.
It is likely that this is the LAST TIME you will have any ability to negotiate salary and benefits in this company.
good luck!
edit. I mention ‘benefits’ specifically as companies seem less willing to move on salary. Perhaps because it usually influences pension contributions and features in assessment of overheads and workforce stats. Benefits on the other hand … car allowance? Wellness allowances? Location allowances? Plus, as you’ve said OP, one off benefits like a signing or 3 month payment.
edit edit. Negotiation can work better by phone than email. YMMV.
where I'll be on fixed term contract again
It’s already been said, but any industry-related job only has the illusion of permanence. Still, that illusion works for banks and building societies.
The HR team told me that wasn't going to happen, here's the start of the salary band for this level role, are you still interested? To which I said yes
There's your issue, right there.
You have to decide on which one is more important to you. The job, or the money. It's a rare thing thing that you get both. You've already told them that you think the job is what you're interested in They have zero incentive now to offer you any more money.
I’ve not read all the replies, but I think it’s time to be blunt - here’s what the HR and Hiring Manager are going to think:
1. he said he would accept X not he is demanding Y, this guy is going to be a pain in the ass to work with.
2. He is out of work, not in a strong negotiating position but thinks he can. If he really believes he is worth Y and takes X he will leave in a few months (after we put a load of effort in) to snap up some other job or return to academia. Should we just revoke the offer?
3. He is coming from academia - he has some strong skills but no real world experience. If they’ve done that before they’ll know there is a non-zero chance you will be full of yourself but actually not necessarily useful to start with.
4. We liked him at interview but there were N other people who met the job criteria and were in budget. It’s not our problem that he’s applying for posts he thinks are beneath him, if we were looking for the next CTO we could be flexible but we are not.
5. We have budget to balance (and this behaviour is evidence the candidate has no understanding of such things) and so the salary is the salary.
6. We have a team of people in similar roles all used to doing the job with experience, if we pay him more they’ll be saying he doesn’t even know the basics of the real world, we know how everything works so we should get more.
People who try to renegotiate after previously acknowledging/accepting the salary band are a pain to work with from day 1 even if the accept the original proposition. If your skills really were outstanding and they loved you as much as you think, then if they really wanted you, had budget and thought you were worth it they may already have offered it.
You have just wasted everyone’s time, including the other candidates who would happily take the money on offer, the company’s (your “interview practice” is actual cost to them) and your own (it doesn’t sound like you’ve actually gained any insight into commercial hiring behaviours).
Yes I'm interested but . . . isn't the same as yes I'll take it. You'll never get another chance to negotiate a better, deal than you will at the start, do it now.
Broadly agree with Poly's assessment, at least might be ringing bells depending how the next conversation goes.
The bit I disagree with with is about agreeing the salary. AIUI they told the OP the starting salary for the band, they didn't offer it at that point nor did they say what the band was - just "here's the start of the salary band for this level role, are you still interested?" and that their requested salary was never going to be matched. OP hasn't said what they actually offered - is that at bottom of band or if not, how much above already?
It's legit at this stage (with evidence) to suggest you are worth more than the bottom of the band but you need to make a reasoned counter that is towards top of band, and in some companies they might even be able to exceed top of the band - up to you how far you might push that. That's not being a PITA yet, that's what I would expect, but it would depending on the approach to that discussion then start to ring alarm bells. As a hiring manager I'd be listening very closely to how that case is presented.
Justify why you should be on at top of band and see where you get.
Point 3 - x 100
With respect @poly, I work in HR and most of that is absolute rubbish.
No-one is offended by asking the question, it's entirely normal and accepted. Do it politely and professionally and there's no issue. They won't revoke the offer, they won't be offended or upset. They may say no, but that just leaves the OP with a decision to make.
They have zero incentive now to offer you any more money.
I completely disagree. Every decent manager wants committed, loyal and motivated staff. Doing your best to accommodate reasonable salary expectations of a new start is the best way a hiring manager can start that new relationship.
I also disagree with nearly everything Poly has said and Poly certainly doesn't sound like a decent employer that I would want to work for.
I also disagree with nearly everything Poly has said and Poly certainly doesn't sound like a decent employer that I would want to work for.
+1 - Sounds like one of those corporate ***hole meme videos that I see all over FB.
I'd rather establish myself as someone that might be difficult to work with than someone who will roll over and comply with whatever the employer says.
With respect @poly, I work in HR and most of that is absolute rubbish.
No-one is offended by asking the question, it's entirely normal and accepted. Do it politely and professionally and there's no issue. They won't revoke the offer, they won't be offended or upset. They may say no, but that just leaves the OP with a decision to make.
HR people may be so used to candidates saying one thing at the start and something else later that it just washes over them, but I’m telling you as someone who in the last 30 years has probably hired 200 people this pisses me off and pisses off other people around me. When I was young and naïve I would go back to my managers and try to get more money for the candidate that I liked - occasionally I was successful, but I can’t recall a single one of them who turned out to be a great hire. As now the senior end of things when someone comes and says we advertised that job for 30k and the candidate wants 40 - I’m pretty robust with my hiring managers: did they get the budget wrong (their mistake), did HR prescreen the candidate wrong (their mistake) or is the candidate a dick who knew it was a 30k job and thought they were smart enough to renegotiate the entire company pay structure. If that happened here today - I would revoke the offer as my experience is candidates who agree one thing at the start and try to get clever later are frankly a PITA to manage.
this is totally different from when you haven’t discussed salary expectations at the start of the process, or where a role says “competitive” in the advert. This is a job with a band. Almost always starting at the bottom of the band unless you have a really good justification (and are happy that the others in the same band aren’t going to then cause a whole bigger issue).
They have zero incentive now to offer you any more money.
I completely disagree. Every decent manager wants committed, loyal and motivated staff. Doing your best to accommodate reasonable salary expectations of a new start is the best way a hiring manager can start that new relationship.
I also disagree with nearly everything Poly has said and Poly certainly doesn't sound like a decent employer that I would want to work for.
which is why the very early conversation is about salary expectations. If you have a PhD and two years post doc experience and might be worth 45k somewhere else - that is great, but we are hiring a for a 30k job so if you won’t take 30k don’t waste everyone’s time by saying you would take 30k, getting and offer for 30k and saying “I’m worth more”. I am an amazing employer to work for - but everyone who works here knew and agreed the salary expectations at the start.
nothing will piss off your existing 35 k a year staff who have been doing that job for two years and will have to train the new guy in the inner workings of the company than if they realise the new guy is earning more.
of course not - you still have the chance to walk away! If the truth was, I’d be hesitant at less than £35k but if you are offering £30k I would consider it, then that’s what you should say. A common tactic (I suspect encouraged by some recruitment firms) is to say “it’s not all about salary for me, so it depends on the entire package, the work and the culture, but if everything else was right I could be more flexible on salary”. By saying yes I’m still interested at a starting salary of £30k you have made any negotiation at offer time more awkward for all involved.Yes I'm interested but . . . isn't the same as yes I'll take it.
By saying yes I’m still interested at a starting salary of £30k you have made any negotiation at offer time more awkward for all involved.
IDK, would help if the OP chipped in again but I'm interpreting the conversation more like
How much are you looking for
- I'd be looking for X
Yeah, that's not gonna happen. The salary band for this position starts at Y. Are you still interested?
**
It's not clear to me at this point that they were told they'd have to start on Y, or what Z is, where the salary band tops out at. If not told that, I'd expect it to be about 10, maybe 10-15% more than Y
Or indeed whether they've been offered Y in their written offer or something else, between Y and Z
but we are hiring a for a 30k job so if you won’t take 30k don’t waste everyone’s time by saying you would take 30k, getting and offer for 30k and saying “I’m worth more”.
That's a fair opinion, but it's sort of unreasonable to make people pick a number at the start of the conversation and then stick rigidly to it for what might be a month or more of an interview process. As you find out more about the role, you might think "hang on, my experience is bringing way more to the role than the original job spec". Also, you might be interviewing other places, would you really rather a candidate just took the higher offer without even asking if there was any more on the table?
Comparing a role with an advertised, banded salary against (the vast majority of) job ads which don't mention salary at all is probably why we're at angry dolphins here. They're different situations.
if they are working within a band, and you were earning more than the top end of that band before, you are perfectly within your rights to ask for the highest salary increment within that band. That is normal practice and, as a hiring manager, something that I would fully support.
If they publish a band, then I reckon you're totally within your rights to ask for the top of the band, no matter what your current salary is. Same as the other argument, if you publish a number you're not prepared to pay, you're just wasting everyone's time.
OP here. Sorry for brief reply (tight on time) but the written offer is at the bottom of the band. The way they presented the position at interview two gave the impression that given my experience and subject expertise they would be expecting me to be client facing early on in the role and they asked if id be comfortable with that. So probably asking me to do slightly more than an average new hire in that role.
Within that context I've therefore asked for the top of that band which is about an extra 7%.
I think the use of the phrase 'break the salary structure ' that I used in the OP was a poor choice of words on my part and possibly why Poly has replied as they did. I'm not asking for 25% over the initial salary mentioned or anything like that.
In hindsight I needed to find out the upper bound of that band at the outset and pre negotiate it, but I've not done this many times before hence asked the internet's finest randos on STW.
My last salary negotiation ended with me doing a "WFH" then laughing at them and putting the phone down.
They offered me a sub £100 bump from my minimal responsibility, easy 9-5 engineering design role to a full on design team lead, sign off for flight sort of role in a multibillion defense program. I said i'd want to looking at more like a 10k bump, apparently the money they were offering me was absolute top dollar for the role. Same industry.
They even sent me the offer letter and contract to sign (about 30 pages of it as it was going to involve *lots* of military clearances).
Then had a follow up call asking why i hadn't returned the contract. *rolleyes*
I changed industry for the 10k bump i wanted a few months later. Another minimum responsibility, straight forward 9-5 eng. design job...
but I’m telling you as someone who in the last 30 years has probably hired 200 people
I reckon those 200 people were probably just the turnover on 4 posts....
Spoke to the HR person, she said she'd see if she could get me an extra 7% which was what she'd led me to believe was top of the band. They phoned back offering 15% extra which was the actual top of the band.
Thanks for all the input to the thread, definitely learnt a few things for next time
That’s an excellent result. Well done.
That's brilliant... now how do we collect our commission? 🤣
Spoke to the HR person, she said she'd see if she could get me an extra 7% which was what she'd led me to believe was top of the band. They phoned back offering 15% extra which was the actual top of the band.
Thanks for all the input to the thread, definitely learnt a few things for next time
Congratulations! Sounds to me like you knew exactly what you were doing. Hopefully, the naysayers of this thread have learned something - if not for their own job hunts but in how to treat their prospective candidates (if they really are involved in recruitment for their organisation's).
Spoke to the HR person, she said she'd see if she could get me an extra 7% which was what she'd led me to believe was top of the band. They phoned back offering 15% extra which was the actual top of the band.
Thanks for all the input to the thread, definitely learnt a few things for next time
Brilliant news.
Now just wait for Poly to tell you why it isn't and why you'll be fired soon...
Awesome news. I'm equally as bad about negotiating such things which is where a good recruitment consultant can come in handy.
I found it much easier telling them what I wanted than trying to negotiate directly with the company. I could tell them straight and they could then phrase it in a way they know would work for the company.
I need to get better at it really going forward!
Glad to hear that it worked out in the end. I must admit, I'm just intrigued to hear that there are jobs in industry that pay worse than fixed term academic jobs. I always though the deal was that you got to do something a bit more interesting and with more control over your days-to-day schedule in academia but at the (literal) cost of a lower salary. Guess that's not the case these days though.
