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Thanks The-Beard - just what I was thinking but far more eloquently put than I could mange.
The sort of crap that women have to deal with on a pretty much daily basis in the workplace, whilst out socialising or even just walking down the street is enabled by the sort of attitudes seen in parts of this thread.
Just because behaviour isn't illegal, doesn't mean it is right or acceptable.
Hopefully discussing it will mean that folk have a bit of a think before they behave in a certain way in the future.
Intersting anecdotes The-Beard. Flaming people for their banter whilst bragging about taking the law into you own hands with vigilante actions and no mention of calling the police makes you a part of the problem in my view.
And I remember hauling some greasy dirt bag of a lawyer out of a bar after he tried to slap one of the bar staff because she wasn’t paying him enough attention
Would you have done the same if it had been a greasy dirt bag builder built like a brick latrine who had tried to slap a male bar tender? Your post reeks of macho sexist attitudes. 🙂
The night club world is a jungle, talk to the wrong woman and your likely to get beaten shitless by some possesive thug who'll then claim you touched up his missus. On a trip to Leicester on a late night bus my 7 year old son was horrified not by the men but very drunk howling cat fighting women turning out of a night club. It's not just women bar tenders who get a slap, I know, I worked in bar and in all honesty the men suffered more than the women. It was bad form for blokes to attack women but men were fair game for the macho thugs. Differentialtion on the basis of sex, sexism. Or when heavy handed possesive protection of women is sexist. The wome were being deprived of their freedom to chat with whom they wished by their "owners".
The male-female dynamics of pissed up nights out in Britain are a long way from Brand and those in professional contact with him.
The thread has gone off piste a few times, i've tried to stay within the black and white, as stated, they are allegations at present, so on an internet forum i'm keeping opinions, especially litigious ones out of it, it's why i'm like a broken record about the police and CPS doing their job, hopefully without external pressures and a media frenzy.
The problems with this thread is when general comments are being made for this specific case, or as i did earlier in the thread, made a comment without giving context, so it was effectively badly worded and ambiguous without the additional context.
Would you have done the same if it had been a greasy dirt bag builder built like a brick latrine who had tried to slap a male bar tender? Your post reeks of macho sexist attitudes. 🙂
Yes - I was working security.
The thread has gone off piste a few times
I'm impressed with how the thread went from we all hate Russell Brand, the geezer is a total arsehole and always has been, to don't call him a nonce and who hasn't wanted to have sex with a sixteen year old.
Oh Edukator! 🤦🏻♂️
@The-Beard I agree, though confess that based on my post above yours, I could also be accused of 'judging on appearance'. I don't think I do IRL - I just got drawn in to the puerile 'you must be gay' if...' thread within the thread. I shouldn't have. Apologies.
I was born in the 60s and grew up in the 70s. I think it's very hard for people born a few decades later to realise just how ingrained and normalised misogynistic, racist and other unacceptable attitudes were back then. How it infected every area of life and how difficult it was to claw your way out of it. It was literally everywhere from teachers, popular entertainment, friends, authority figures etc.
I have tried very hard to educate myself and gone in the opposite direction to many of my peers from those days. Becoming (I hope), more progressive, inclusive, socially aware and less prejudiced.
I have a way to go though and I'm sure I still carry some unwanted baggage from the bad old days, so happy to be called out when I slip up.
Very eloquently put Mr. Uptheroad or may I call you Bloke. Pretty much exactly my thoughts.
may I call you Bloke.
You may!
The-BeardFull Member
Would you have done the same if it had been a greasy dirt bag builder built like a brick latrine who had tried to slap a male bar tender? Your post reeks of macho sexist attitudes. 🙂Yes – I was working security
i think that is what the yoofs call a mic drop!
And you checked out the lawyers qualifications and the medical student's papers and you absolutely know he was telling you the truth about his hands. Summary justice with predjudice against the professional classes expressed "greasy dirt bag of a lawyer"
There's predjudice all over your post. And I'll invite everyone reading this thread to consider the attitudes and actions of "security" in night clubs they've been to.
IME the roles of "security":
Selecting who gets in on the bassis of sex, age, dress code and apparent ability to pay - being paid to discriminate
Dispensing summary justice with little regard for what is really going on, chose a few easy male targets and demonstrate force
Having a suitably imposing physical presence - male, weighty, intimidating - women rarely employed in the profession in night clubs, highly macho attitudes prefered.
It's not just women who suffer from male attitudes, it's men too.
The last thing women need if they are ever to be free of male oppression is heavy handed male protection. Check out societies around the world, the more men "protect" women the more they deprive them of their freedom. Iran versus Denmark.
It’s asking if they will continue to pay Brand for his content on the platform. They’re free to say yes or say no. This is in the context of discussions around the regulatory framework and self-regulation for conveniental and social media companies – which is in the committee’s remit to examine.
It's a very loaded question though, with a veiled threat underlying it. Rumble is being invited to consider whether they want a Parliamentary committee publically taking them to task for either continuing to monetise, or not saying if they do or not.
Also, the suggestion is that the nature of Rumble's response could help them frame their recommendations on future regulation of the industry, so the subtext is "Do you want the potentially negative PR when your company's stance is part of our eventual public report and recommendations?"
The easier option is to demonetise Brand, which, I suspect, is the aim of the letter.
I was born in the 60s and grew up in the 70s. I think it’s very hard for people born a few decades later to realise just how ingrained and normalised misogynistic, racist and other unacceptable attitudes were back then
Born 70s here and you’re right. It’s something that really didn’t fade until the 2000s, I can’t help but think in later years it is returning some what.
Come on, Edukator is trolling us now isn't he? We need to stop feeding him.
So I'm your target now Frank, you unjustly character assassinated Bearnecessities yesterday, I pointed it out and now you're going for me with one liners because you can't actually fault my content. No I'm not trolling.
Most people would have taken the L and paused momentarily to collect themselves before pivoting with such vigour onto the prejudices of door staff/security, so you have to admire the light-footedness.
@Edukator are you still scarred from being told "you're not coming in with those trainers mate"? Let it go, life's too short....😉
Having a suitably imposing physical presence – male, weighty, intimidating – women rarely employed in the profession in night clubs, highly macho attitudes prefered.
I'm not sure when you were last in a night club - there might not entirely be parity in numbers but it is a long time since I last went to a club that didn't have a significant proportion of its security staff who were women.
Accusation of trolling = personal attack. I am absolutely not trolling, Frank, but expressing genuine views that don't please those who self-identify as among the overly protective males that in fact deprive women of their freedom. Women will only ever be free if they don't need protecting and men don't stop confusing freedom denying possesive instincts and actions with protection. Women need to be treated as equals not damsels in distress.
I've noticed more and more women employed in security in supermarkets but not night clubs, Poly. Where there has been a woman the roles have been clear, male heavies, female logistics.
Where there has been a woman the roles have been clear, male heavies, female logistics.
Now there's unconscious bias.
Not unconcious bias, blindingly obvious role distribution on the basis of observation. Next time you have dealings with a male-female pairing note who does what. Some examples:
Le Louvre, women checking bags, men standing around. Bundestag, women explaining guiding possibilites and times, men standing around.
I've now irritated enough people on this thread that someone is going to nitpick everything I type. It could be amusing but I've got a wall to demolish, toodle pip. 🙂
I don't often talk about that job, I only brought it up as I felt it was pertinent to how I've personally witnessed men treat women. Mostly as it was a long time ago but also because it was sometimes deeply unpleasant and downright terrifying. I'm really not very macho, I have some form of PTSD from it I'm sure, every so often I wake up at night and replay incidents in my head. After I initially posted I've sat here pretty much the entire time thinking on it. Believe it or not, all I was doing was making sure people could enjoy their night out and if something did go wrong, trying to help people. It exposed me to the best and worst in people, both in terms of the punters and the men (and women!) I worked with. Witnessing someone's distress first hand because they've been harassed or worse, physically assaulted, changed how I viewed things. What some men thought they could get away with was horrific.
Surely Madame should be demolishing the wall.
I got what you meant Beard, seemed obvious to me.
Rumble is being invited to consider whether they want a Parliamentary committee publically taking them to task
... and clearly they'd love that. A lot more folks have now heard of them for one thing.
I don’t often talk about that job,
It's relevant and very well put.
It's weird that there has been so much discussion of the rights and wrongs of older men "dating" children over 16. The allegation is not merely that Brand had sex with her, but also that he violently sexually assaulted her. The conduct, if proven, would be regarded as degrading and abusive regardless of whether the victim was 16 or 66.
I’ve noticed more and more women employed in security in supermarkets but not night clubs, Poly.
Do you go to nightclubs much as an older geezer? I wouldn't have thought the STW demographic visits them a lot (unless they needed to upgrade their POS software or something).
I’ve noticed more and more women employed in security in supermarkets but not night clubs, Poly.
Do you go to nightclubs much as an older geezer? I wouldn’t have thought the STW demographic visits them a lot (unless they needed to upgrade their POS software or something).
Does anyone go to nightclubs? These days my daughter gets charged to get into places late at night that are pubs earlier on in the evening. I think the traditional nightclub has disappeared around here.
Anyway, my point, which is of some relevance to the thread. A few months ago I was dragged into one of those places by my wife and some friends - Coyote Ugly, I think there are a few around. Expensive drinks, lots of bouncers and young women - not men - dancing on the bar wearing short stuff. I was pretty surprised that anything like this existed these days - it certainly wasn't normal when I was nightclub age - and quizzed my 20 year old daughter. The last time she was there, an older bloke had been chucked out for trying to touch one of the dancers, not an unusual situation she said.
It sometimes feels to me that our society is going backwards at an astonishing rate.
Do you go to nightclubs much as an older geezer? I wouldn’t have thought the STW demographic visits them a lot (unless they needed to upgrade their POS software or something).
I don't, but I do see plenty of women working on door security outside pubs and clubs. I'm sure Edukator will be along to tell me I'm imagining it.
Jesus, you worked the Heave? My condolences.
Even 20 years ago I remember a decent number of female bouncers who were definitely not "logistics".
@politecameraaction well quite. It doesn't really make any difference at all.
On a side note it's funny how someone under 18 is a child with all the necessary protections and developmental allowances when it suits the argument. See the Sur On thread.
Born 70s here and you’re right. It’s something that really didn’t fade until the 2000s, I can’t help but think in later years it is returning some what.
Born late 60's and yes, very much see the 2,000s as a peak where it felt like we were getting somewhere but it feels like it has gone downhill since then along with many other things within society. Why the change, onset of Social Media?
Check out the guitar thread, politecameraaction. 😉
If proven and demonstrably non consensuel for the behind closed doors stuff. The flashing and workplace stuff in clearly non consensuel if proven.
You got through that wall quickly. 😁
Rumble is being invited to consider whether they want a Parliamentary committee publically taking them to task for either continuing to monetise, or not saying if they do or not.
Taking them to task on what grounds?
I’ve noticed more and more women employed in security in supermarkets but not night clubs, Poly. Where there has been a woman the roles have been clear, male heavies, female logistics.
Anecdotally, there used to be a woman on the door at the main nightclub in my old town. She was the most effective of the lot of them, none of the pissed-up hard men fancied having a go, and she was probably more nails than the male gorillas. She most certainly was not doing admin.
It started raining, I went for a swim instead.
I said "logistics" and you've changed it to "admin". I'm all for female security, I think there's a better chance of a situations being diffused than escalating. IME and it's no more than my experience, night life is one sector which is still more reliant on male heavies which was my original point.
I think Frank has a record number of likes on this thread for his post accusing me of trolling on the previous page. Whilst some of those likes might be from people having a laugh becuase of my hate-like analysis I suggest that most are an excellent example of anonymous hate-likes, with me as the target in this case. A perfect tool for the STW playground bullies to abuse. If STW wants diversity of opinion anonymous likes only available to paying members are counter productive.
It started raining, I went for a swim instead.
That's a lot of rain.
I said “logistics” and you’ve changed it to “admin”.
True, that was unfair of me. Point was, she wasn't the brains to the brawn, she was on the door just like the blokes.
I suggest that most are an excellent example of anonymous hate-likes
I suggest that you've still made this up.
Hate Likes is an odd phrase. I think it is like when I listen to Kanye West music. I hate him but like his earlier music.
I’ve noticed more and more women employed in security in supermarkets but not night clubs, Poly. Where there has been a woman the roles have been clear, male heavies, female logistics.
Where I am there isn't much security in supermarkets - but night clubs, pubs, concerts etc all have a significant proportion of women on the door, and working the floor. Its a while since I've been in a night club, and even longer since I've been there at chucking out time, or once things have started to get "lively" but even in the 90's and early 00's in Edinburgh there were women who were hands on in ejecting people etc. My most recent visits have involved lots of bag searches and pat downs etc so if there were not many women involved they'd probably not have many female customers.
Le Louvre, women checking bags, men standing around. Bundestag, women explaining guiding possibilites and times, men standing around.
You live in France and have given a French and German example to illustrate your point. Is it possible that your bias or opinion of bias is not reflective of 21st Century Britain? I think you probably owe Bear an apology, as whilst your point seems logical that when women have equality they won't need men to stand up for them it's clearly bonkers - because whether he was working security or not, a man who ignores a woman being attacked because she should be able to defend herself is clearly a prick.
If proven and demonstrably non consensuel for the behind closed doors stuff.
I'm not sure it has to be demonstrably non-consensuel whatever that might mean. Very few cases centre on a defence of explicit consent - much more likely that it would rest on the defendant showing that in all the circumstances it was reasonable to believe there was consent.
expressing genuine views that don’t please those who self-identify as among the overly protective males...most are an excellent example of anonymous hate-likes
Are you suggesting you're the victim of people ganging up on you not because of what you've done, but because they don't like your uncomfortable truths? 🤯
Is going down!
They write themselves sometimes, don't they.
I owe Bear an apology? I was one of three people pointing out the injustice when Frank laid into him yesterday. Telling me you think I should give someone an apology is an opinion I'll ignore anyhow. Especially in the context of the unpleasness diierected at me in this thread, it's just another way of being unpleasant when you could just disagree. Victim blaming.
And you're putting words in my mouth by changing my message. I didn't say what you claim I did:
as whilst your point seems logical that when women have equality they won’t need men to stand up for them it’s clearly bonkers
compare with:
"Women will only ever be free if they don’t need protecting and men don’t stop confusing freedom denying possesive instincts and actions with protection. Women need to be treated as equals not damsels in distress."
You're just joining in with the group hate, Poly, and even Cougar is changing my wording. This is a fascinating sociological exercise in the use of underhand tactics to character assassinate. People are failing to find fault with what I've actually said so inventing what they think I've said (you), posting abusive one-liners (Frank), playing blind when he isn't (Cougar). Being petty about detail when incaple of finding arguments against the main points (does it really matter that we don't have exactly the same experience of bouncers in clubs when debating Brand?)
What you lot can't do is is make an accurate quote long enough not to be cherry picked that makes me the person you're trying to make me out to be. It's an STW lynch mob, Bearneccessities yesterday, me today. Look at yourselves
I don't like Brand, I'd still like to see him get a fair judicial trial and find the trial by media increasingly distasteful. Unfortunately it's unlikely that all those who've enabled him will go on trial too.
Jesus on a ****ing bike @Edukator, there's enough (alleged) victims involved with the actual case, we don't need one on here.
You've somehow managed to turn a thread about very serious allegations of sexual abuse into how you're being mistreated by 'hate-likes' and utter shite about 'over-protective males', who for one I'm glad they exist as they've pulled me out of the shit personally and professionally many times in my life. Its not just women who need protecting, some bloody men do as well.
Honest held beliefs or not, you're way off the reservation and sound unhinged.
even Cougar is changing my wording.
Which I held my hand up for, even though it wasn't supposed to be a direct quote.
playing blind when he isn’t (Cougar)
Huh?
<p style="text-align: left;">Edukator for gods sake man....</p>
Lad at work MMA fighter saved another mans life last year, guy was on the wrong end of savage beating , lad at work reduced the attacker to a quivering wreck in seconds, are you suggesting he should have walked on by...
Im sure you would be gratefull of such a intervention should you need it ..
By the way MMA fighter is the nicest politest fella you will ever meet...we need these people all of us do