TJ in physics arguing black is white shocker....
The physics is clear and so is the law. Its in relation to the dead ball line not the player according to the law, that vid is from the ARU as a discussion piece. the "momentum" pass is allowed in league but not in union.
the law is clear. Even if the movement of the players arms is backwards in relation to the player if the ball goes forward due to his movement forward it is a forward pass.
In which case, there have been one hell of a lot of forward passes that have gone unnoticed, including several over-the-head ones. Perhaps the clear law is clearly wrong and clearly needs updating to account for basic physics?
Of course, were the players on a conveyor belt......
Passing
A player may pass (throw the ball) to a team mate who is in a better position to continue the attack, [b]but the pass must not travel towards the opposing team’s goal line. It must travel either directly across the field, or back in the direction of the passer’s own goal line.[/b]
The physics is clear
To us, yes. Apparently not to you 🙂 If it were you'd realise that the rulebook and that training document (ie not a rulebook) contradict each other.
The IRB have published that forward pass video on their own youtube channel, so I think it's clear where the game's rulemakers stand on this issue.
guys - the rule and the physics are clear. I understand what you are saying about the momentum pass - in relation to the player its backward. However it is clearly not allowed for in the rules which define the movement of the ball in relation to the dead ball line.
The two links I post do not contradict each other, there never has been a directive from the IRB allowing the momentum pass nor has there been any rule change.
yes stuey =- that the momentum pass is not allowed. its very clear. I cannot believe you are arguing for this
Point to an IRB rule, directive or anything else that says it is allowed. the vid does not. Its a discussion piece
However it is clearly not allowed for in the rules which define the movement of the ball in relation to the dead ball line.
But they don't. They define the direction of the throw in relation to the dead ball line.
I'll say it very slowly. everything is measured in relation to the dead ball line. the direction of the throw and the movement of the ball relative to the dead ball line are the same. even if the throw is backward in relation to the player it can be forward in relation to the dead ball line and that is the only thing that counts. In relation to the dead ball line
I ask again
What IRB rule, interpretation, directive or any other document allows the momentum pass? when were the refs told to allow these passes as not being forward?
You patronising sod.
The rule does not reference the direction of travel of the ball, only the direction of the throw. You are inferring that this is the same as the travel of the ball. There is room for interpretation of the law. This is why it is debated on forums and in pubs the world over. This is why people have gone to the trouble to produce videos about it.
If the ref says it's a forward pass then it's a forward pass.
END of discussion.
bump
However it is clearly not allowed for in the rules which define the movement of the ball in relation to the dead ball line.But they don't. They define the direction of the throw in relation to the dead ball line.
word!
doesnt mention movement it mentions throwing.
Maybe someone should tell the Scotland players, it may elevate them above crap.
You know what, I am a ref, and I am going to stop using lifts...just in case...my tuppence,ball has to go back or a forward pass.
glitchy bump
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
If a forward pass has nothing to do with it's direction of travel in relation to the goal line then why mention the goal line at all? Why not just say 'Forward means in relation to the players position at the time of the pass and takes into account his speed and direction of travel at the time of the pass'?
Seems to me that unless they are trying to make the rule confusing it is pretty clear.
namastebuzz - MemberIf the ref says it's a forward pass then it's a forward pass.
END of discussion.
duckman - MemberYou know what, [b]I am a ref[/b], and I am going to stop using lifts...just in case...my tuppence,[b]ball has to go back[/b] or a forward pass.
If a forward pass has nothing to do with it's direction of travel in relation to the goal line then why mention the goal line at all? Why not just say 'Forward means in relation to the players position at the time of the pass and takes into account his speed and direction of travel at the time of the pass'?
so you know what the law means if your facing the wrong way round when you pass?
duckman hasnt often been seen reffing at international level as far as I know.
Down here in the grassroots. If it looks like it went forward then forward pass. Most passers and receivers know immediately. Ref is the judge on the pitch at the time, his decision is final.
Either we accept that or fundamentally change the game.
I would think that a good number balls passed, unless very deep, from a player moving forward at speed will, in relation to the ground, travel forward especially in a fast attacking move. Very hard to ref that situation.
so you know what the law means if your facing the wrong way round when you pass?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean there.
My point was that unless the rule means in relation to the goal line in absolute terms without any reference to the player's movement then there was no need to mention the goal line at all. The rules could have been written like they are in RL
Direction of Pass 1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not
passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.
Edit to add: Actually, it would probably make more sense to change the rules to the RL definition. With the speed players are running these days it seems almost impossible to judge correctly 100% of the time whether a pass has gone forward in absolute terms since your eye naturally follows the players rather than the ball in relation to the lines on the pitch.
Not sure the High heid yins in Union could stomach being seen to steal rules from league though.
Is this still going on? The beauty of these threads is you get to see the inherent characteristics of some forum users.
Next week can we discuss which dries quicker, gloss paint or matt paint?
If this is what rugby is about (football for the middle class wannabes), I'm out.
Good luck Wales and let's see you go all the way either by playing good positive rugby of by defying physics.
so you know what the law means if your facing the wrong way round when you pass?Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean there.
well if a player is facing his own try line and throws it forward that could be interpreted as towards his own try line as he is facing that way, which as I'm sure we can all agree is legal.
Lets be honest the union law is not clear as anyone who watches the vid I linked to can see, the league definition is however clear, but if you watch the games neither seems tobe different in terms of passing.
Shame is a way video refs dont rule on it for last pass prior to scoring because then we'd see what the ref really think.
I think it's just one of those rules in rugby that in reality is open to interpretation by the ref, a bit like the breakdown. So long as he's consistent I don't see it being a massively important issue.
The beauty of these threads is you get to see the inherent characteristics of some forum users
Like being really sarcastic 😉
If that's aimed at me Bruce, I don't try to hide that, pretend I'm not or criticise people being so my friend. 🙄
Thankfully the pommy rugby teams departing our shores.What did they give to the game.Miserable soulless rugby, no smiles, boorish behaviour and attitude.Goodbye and dont hurry back.Thankfully there should be some entertaining rugby ahead with four teams full of entertainment and skill to cap off a very successful and enjoyable rugby festival.One of the great joys has been seeing all the different nationalities travelling the country and enjoying there time here
Agreed.
Whoever wins from now will be an attacking team with at least the intention of scoring tries.
Although I do hope MJ stays on with England. I for one am a huge fan of his work so far 🙂
Yeah, I tried not to be disappointed in England, knowing from the very start what they'd be like, but things like the tabloid bollocks, the crappy ALL BLACK kit, the utterly weird team selections, made it all even worse than I expected.
They contributed less to the tournament than teams like Japan, Italy and Samoa - pretty shameful really.
If that's aimed at me Bruce, I don't try to hide that, pretend I'm not or criticise people being so my friend.
It was but I didn't really mean to insult, just a wee joke hence the winky smiley.
Anyway, do you know what? I'm actually coming round to your way of thinking AA.
I think that the key words in the rules are 'throw forward' rather than 'pass forward'. That suggests to me that you're right and so long as the ball is thrown in the direction of your own goal line then it's not a forward pass, even if the ball travels forward.
As an engineer I find it confusing since the only two reference points mentioned in the rules are ball and goal line. This suggests to me that the consideration was the motion of the ball in relation to the goal line.
I watched the video but since I have no idea how carefully the law makers check the videos that actually appear on the IRB's site I wasn't sure. I don't like to assume that things like this will always be correct. Especially because many players, coaches, and even refs seem to get it wrong.
The big give away should have been that the crap coverage you get on ITV think that a forward pass is the ball in relation to the goal line.
Welsh bloke in my office has just bought himself on of these 🙂
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Not insulted in the slightest, Brucey, by your comment, my intelligence is being insulted by this futile argument by, I guess, people who've never played the game or they'd be able to understand and interpret the rule a bit better.
More importantly why has no-one taken wind into account? I throw/pass the ball backward but the wind instantly carries the ball forward. The pass/throw is legal yet the trajectory is illegal. 🙄
Decisions are made correctly or incorrectly, grow some and move on! It's not football, in 1966....
Don Simon has been sucked into the vortex............
Has looked over the edge, seen the futility, had a quiet laugh and is walking away only to return when the conversation returns to rugby.
Cymru am Byth. 😀
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Yeah, what can I say. I enjoy rugby, I enjoy the use of language and how it can be interpreted, and I enjoy pointless arguments about things that don't matter at all. I'm happy as a pig in shit on here 🙂
Good question about the wind btw. Although even I think it would be getting a bit daft if we brought that into the discussion.
DezB - MemberYeah, I tried not to be disappointed in England....
They contributed less to the tournament than teams like Japan, Italy and Samoa - pretty shameful really.
Disagree. I think England were fantastic for the tournament. They were the true pantomine villain whom everybody loved to hate and they got their just desserts in the end.
Sure, they contributed nothing in terms of rugby but all the lurid headlines kept everybody amused between matches. The RWC would've been less interesting without "DwarfGate", "Manu Overboard" and so on. 😆
Ok, then as devils advocate....If a player takes the ball out of a team-mate's hands who is behind him,forward or not?
Enough with the forward pass technicalities guys it's a huge yawn, sorry.
This thread was starting to get interesting again, and now you have killed it totally.
Reminds me of something...
[i]Enough with the forward pass technicalities guys it's a huge yawn, sorry.[/i]
AGREEEEED!
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15250395.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15250395.stm[/url]
France fielding an unchanged side and the mind games have begun too. 😀
"The danger is for the players to start thinking they are too good...we are Latin, so there is always a risk," said Lievremont after confirming his side.
"The Anglo-Saxons are far more pragmatic. I hope the prospect of playing in the final is enough."
Best not tell we're Celts...
[i]2011: France 28-9 Wales[/i]
Methinks it will be closer this time...
If I hear the phrase 'of course you never know which French team is going to turn up' I'm chucking something out the window.
The danger is for the players to start thinking they are too good...we are Latin, so there is always a risk," said Lievremont after confirming his side.
Sounds like Lievremont is getting his excuses in early this game. And making it clear it's not his fault.
Wales to squeak past France who will play stunning rugby but not be able to compete for the full 80.
NZ fall apart due to missing a really class no10 backs work well forwards work well but not able to link.
Pocock to single handedly ruin Wales' game in a close final and not be pinged nearly enough (good flanker knows excately where the line is and spend his life on the wrong side of it).
Wales v Oz final I reckon.
Oz to triumph in the end.
My aussie mates to never, ever shut up about it. Especially after the ribbing we gave them in 2007 in Marseille.
I still can't see past NZ although Aus are getting close. Even without carter where do you attack them? The scrum has matched anything anyone has thrown against them, awesome set of back speed. power ,skill all over the park. Ok so without Carter they are not a strong in attack but where do you attack them?
Ok so without Carter they are not a strong in attack but where do you attack them?
They leaked points to everyone in the group games, so they clearly are not perfect and do have weak points.
[i]NZ fall apart due to missing a really class no10 [/i]
I'll feel bloody sorry for them if/when they don't win it. And I can tell the chap who sits opposite me is getting worried... especially when I mention Genia.. apparently though, Cooper may go to 15 as Beale injured..