I have done a fair amount of thinking about promotion and relegation ( cos Scotland could be affected)
I think IRB should insist that all the 6N terms play Georgia every second year in the AIs so we can actually see if they are good enough. then once ( like Italy did) they start winning some games then they are good enough
Then have a playoff between the bottom of the 6N against the top of 6N level two that Georgia play in. I think automatic relegation would be wrong and could just led to teams bouncing up and then down again but if Italy ( or Scotland) can't beat Georgia in a playoff then do they really deserve to be in the top tier?
Yeah I'd agree with that TJ.....apparently Italy are quite reluctant to play Georgia...I wonder why?!
Call me bigoted or whatever, but for me it just wouldn't be the 6 nations if Scotland weren't in it...or any of the other home nations for that matter. Not sure what the answer is, but it is getting a bit daft really with Italy. God help them when Parisse retires, he's the only thing that they actually bring to the tournament really.
Wales do not have anyone with his ability to link and his speed. They are all 6.5s really anyway are they not?
Ermm...do you even watch rugby?
Tipuric lacking in speed or linking play and being more of a 6.5...ffs Just because Warburton has played 6 this season doesnt mean he isnt a proper 7.
Lacks pace
Cant link play
Can't really complain about the result today; Ireland were better in every facet of the game. We were lucky not to have been pinged / carded for late tackles etc.
When Ireland play like that, they must be bloody horrible to play against; they suffocate the opposition and defend like beasts. If you don't have the hall yi can't do much as we showed. We were dicked at the breakdown today. Hope Underhill lives up to his promise!
Will be interesting to see if Hartley's days are numbered now; he's been subbed early this tournament and George is the better hooker.
This was Itoje's first international loss which is a pretty good statistic. He needs to cut out the hard man act though, and is much more effective at lock.
Tips is good and had a decent game today but has not been at his best this 6N. Watson is faster than most backs. Faster than either of them I'd bet.
I'll have a dig around the 6N stats later to have a comparison.
Tom B - Member
Hovis and Warburton are proper 7's imo
In the same way that Andrew and Freddie Flintoff are great cricketers?
Can't really complain about the result today; Ireland were better in every facet of the game.
No they werent - England were shit but...
... they suffocate the opposition
Very negative rugby, obviously a tactic made for a very dull game. Enlgand need to learn to counter against this but if I was Irish I wouldnt feel particulalry proud about the nature of that win. Well done for how the scoresheet looks anyway.
^ masterful
Very negative rugby, obviously a tactic made for a very dull game. Enlgand need to learn to counter against this but if I was Irish I wouldnt feel particulalry proud about the nature of that win. Well done for how the scoresheet looks anyway.
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Suffocating a team is a perfectly legitimate tactic. If I was Irish I would be very proud. England looked absolutely toothless today and the problem IMO lies at 10 and 12. Deny them time and space and England have nothing to offer.
AA - Wales / Scotland game. Watson was a sub but IIRC came on fairly early at 25 mis so only had 55 mins to play
Watson 2 passes 5 runs 16m 2 defenders beaten
Tips 4 passes 4 runs 6m no defenders beaten
Watson 8 tackles 1 missed out of 107
tips 17 tackles 2 missed out of 148
No state for turnovers on espn which is the critical one but Wales turned the ball over 17 times, scotland 9. dunno who made the turnovers. any other source of stats? this is off espn scrum.com
In the commentry Watson makes several turnovers on the ground but its not at all clear how many each of them makes
so on that Watson was better in attack but Tips in defense and Watson made more turnovers but that is not definate
Deny them time and space and England have nothing to offer.
True but deny any team time and space and they'll have nothing to offer.
Ireland won the game fair and square and after England's performance last week they'd have been foolish to try and play otherwise.
Still, when EJ took charge if we'd known that we wouldn't lose until now - all England fans would've been delighted.
I think 9, 10 and 12 are issues. EJ has never looked beyond Youngs/Care who can both go AWOL when the pressure is on. If Ford is the answer at 10 he needs someone better at 12. If Farrell is the answer at 10 then why hasn't he played there?
If England learn from this loss then it's a good loss.
IMO as well as 10/12 not being able to cope with poor ball and without an armchair ride the other issue seems to be brains or lack of them and inflexibility ie - no plan B
England might well have been shit but you can only play what's in front of you.
Very negative rugby, obviously a tactic made for a very dull game. Enlgand need to learn to counter against this but if I was Irish I wouldnt feel particulalry proud about the nature of that win.
Negative rugby to you, winning rugby to me. Sure it wasn't putting 40 points on the All Blacks in the sun but you play to win and that's what happened.
I didn't think it was dull at all, but then I'm a forward and love seeing great set piece ball for Ireland. We won every single facet of the game and I'm very pleased we put in an 80minute performance.
I couldn't be more proud of the Irish team, to win against the odds with a number of first choice players unavailable and guys on the bench making debuts, there is every reason to be proud. Also it bodes well going forward as the number of young players coming through is very exciting.
It was far from dull; I was on the edge of my seat the entire match.
Just says by England we're shit fails to recognise who well Ireland did at keeping the ball is difficult conditions. It was greasey yet they strung passes together and kicked and key stages to put us under pressure. Their line out also put huge pressure on us.
TJ - most 10 and 12 combos struggle with no space. Russell looked pretty ropey last week when starved of space and started to implode (e.g. that pass in his one 22 that Joseph nearly picked off).
Yes - But others suffer much less. Russell didn't come apart when he made that pass. He was trying to make a try scoring pass as he does every time. there was an overlap! Thats his weakness tho. Farrell or Ford wouldn't do that sort of mad pass.
IMO 10/12 are the main if not the only real weakness England have. too slow of thinking and unable to cope without an armchair ride
try to do to Russell what Ireland did to Ford he will lie flat to the gain line and he will chip over the top. Russellis just so much quicker to react to what is ion front of him. ford and Farrell if the planned move aint working they are not able to do anything
Blindmelon +1 great game and the right tactics to beat a very talented team.
Normal service resumed today.
England play very well to a game plan. And badly when the game plan fails.
Ireland play like tigers in defence first, then attack.
Scotland play flexibly. And when that is a good game they are stunning. But it that fails they probably have nothing.
Stay classy Kryton!
so on that Watson was better in attack but Tips in defense and Watson made more turnovers but that is not definate
You might recall one team did a lot of defending and one a lot of attacking.
To claim the Tipuric is just a defencing flanker and not very fast and more of a six is plain bonkers. He is easily the most creative, one of the fastest and the best attacking linking and passing 7's in europe. Now I wouldnt have him in my Lions 15 due to his lack of a power game but to have your view point is utterly mind bending if you have ever seen him play.
Do you only watch Scottish teams?
Earlier you said Watson was the only proper 7 in Britain ckearly you have not seen Ellis Jenkins at The Blues or James Davies at The Scarlets both proper 7's and both you could argue as good as Watson. Will Boyd at The Scarlets is another very good proper 7.
The fact that Wales has hardly any good sixes and 8's means our best 6 played 8 all season and the best 7 played 6, doesnt mean they have suddenly become different players.
Very negative rugby, obviously a tactic made for a very dull game. Enlgand need to learn to counter against this but if I was Irish I wouldnt feel particulalry proud about the nature of that win.
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I was a "neutral" and I thought itvwas a great game!!!
9, 10 and 12 are not Englands issue. I'd like to see Ford put his foot and the ball and stamp his authority more but he is worth keeping. Care and Youngs are decent and so is Faz. Slade at 12 and Faz at 10 will be tried at some point I reckon.
Englands problem is their gameplan relies on the forwards smashing their way over the gainline (lets discount the Scotland game where the Scottish mid field seemed to forget how to defend off first phase) stop the England forwards on or behind the gainline and they have little else. Wales did it and were a shanked kick away from winning and Ireland did it yesterday.
Once plan A is stopped there other option as done yesterday was go back to a set piece maul game which they are good at, but their scrum, lineout and maul game whilst good isnt that great considering they have 3 locks in their team. Ireland coped yesterday and more suprisingly Wales did too. The other option would be to play wider keep Vunipola out wider get the wings more involved and move the point of attack, they have the backs to do this but their backrow is stodgetastic and lacks pace so they worry about moving them around and losing ball.
England need a 7 really. Shame Watson is the only one in Britain.
So what are peoples view on the French prop going off for the HIA yesterday it won them the game as they were able to bring their more dominant prop back on for 20mins of scrum tedium. It looked like France "gamed" the rules. Barnes did the right thing to be fair and directly questioned the medic. I doubtbit can be proven but if it could this is like blood gate but much more serious due the the very real need to protect players with concussion. Leaves a very nasty taste for me.
Here's hoping these losses put to bed the idea of having Howler take over from Gatland as head coach. Had we won this one and the England game he'd be nailed on so we may have dodged a bullet!!
The Scotland game annoyed me. We again played to italys strengths, only when we shifted to the backs did the game open and as soon as we made space we went back to up the jumper rugby.
I don't see how itoje is getting away with tackles which could be lower and better timed. Sexton will be sore today.
I thought it was a good weekend of rugby, fascinating to look at some of the dire and bore comments, all the games had ebb and flow.
Scotland recovered well from the battering by England, Russell game managed much better, shame for huw Jones he does look like he has potential. Italy are improving under O'Connor.
Wales and France was fascinating and i thought Wales were going to get blown away the first ten, great defence and resilience from the Welsh. Potentially wasteful at times from France and then the finale of the Scrum, Wales moral winners. I thought Warns was outstanding.
Ireland were the best team with a great plan well executed, England need to understand how to change the game on the pitch, better decision making is there downfall. Back row lacking mobility for England and general nous.would like to have seen Nowell start and time to say good by to Mr Angry. Ireland look like they have more strength in depth coming through, well played Sexton.
Lions wise no place for Watson, and he has had a great tournament and is a joy to watch plus the competition for places is great.
No place for hartley, best and George for the places.
No place for any Welsh front five, Alun Wyn Jones has had a anynomus tournament.
No place for a English scrum half.
Not convinced by Farrell at 12
~AA - that not really what I said - anyway - leave it.
Good six nations. today I feel a bit happier about Scotlands performance
Brown is a great 15 when there's less pressure. It's not the skills that let him down its his control of himself.
Mind you Hogg and loopy Liam are the same.
Russell should be a Lions contender but 12,13 will need to be less stringent in their play. Russell farrell ringrose
AA; Prop told ref he had a sore back,starting Prop had been warming up. Then suddenly had a sore head 🙄
We have to protect players so playing on the HIA procedures is utter shite. 10/10 for the Welsh props comment. " We don't care!" That incident has to be dealt with, you can't have special teams a la American Football.
Double post caused by jaggy bunnet.
10/10 for the Welsh props comment. " We don't care!
Which he didnt but then he got boken and Nicky Smith came on!!!
Wales just should have said Francis was injured and gone uncontested!!!
Anyway I am quite pleased we lost to prevent another Howlercaust but HIA need to be respected and if teams cant do that than what the **** can they do? Independent medics...wont help they just say I banged me head mate and any medic will have to trust them. Quite a dark day for the game imo.
Alun Wyn Jones has had a anynomus tournament.
I think you should go back and look at the wales england and Wales ireland games and have a think. Might not make the Lions tour but he has been immense in a poor welsh front 5 that has hung onto the coat tails of much better irish, english and french tight 5's.
Brown is a great 15 when there's less pressure
No he is an average to good international 15. He is a reliable defender and very good under the high ball but after his break through season the lack of variety in his attacking play has been worked out.
I'd like to find space for Hamish Watson at 7. The only true 7 playing in the NH.
They are all 6.5s really anyway are they not?
~AA - that not really what I said - anyway - leave it.
Why? You talk absolute shite, get called out on it, then say its not what you said and want it left???
With out it sounding like sour grapes Wales got shafted by some very questionable decisions yesterday.
that's life though got to suck it up.
AA - your post immediately above mine says I said things I didn't. Simple as.
Anyway lets drop it eh?
As regards France and the supposed HAI - very much indeed looks like it was bending the rules. We shall see but if Wales had done a similar fiddle to go to uncontested scrums they would have been down another player - and the last passage of play before the try was scored Barnes had picked out two Yellow card offenses - the prop going down and Biggar kicking a ball inthe ruck - so one more play would have seen wale down to 11 players!
Re. The hia, it was a farce, but what can you do? If someone had an injury and was made to pay on there would be hell to play. All you can do is hope for the integrity of the management team and if this episode gets enough negative press maybe people will think twice?
Very very bizarre end to the game. Personally I thought France were infringing at the scrum as it was French players standing up first. Then there was the fourth official saying there was / wasn't a problem. As the French would say 'Bof!'
With out it sounding like sour grapes Wales got shafted by some very questionable decisions yesterday.
I agree but I think Barnes was handed a some shit cards in that last 20mins. I think he did the best he could. Wonder if the player who bit North will be found?
I thought Barnes handled that final bit of the game very well indeed - being very clear about what he was being told and doing - and resisted the temptation to give a pen try everytime the Welsh pack got shoved backwards and broke up the scrum
AA let's not forget better Scottish locks as well. By his standards and as a touted Captain of the lions an anynomus tournament especially in a poor Welsh front five who played well yesterday, in all honesty the scrum looked better with T Falateu in there for the last twenty.
AA - your post immediately above mine says I said things I didn't. Simple as.
What did I say that you didnt.
Watson is clearly not the only true 7 true the northern hemisphere.
Tipuric is clearly an out and out 7 with amazing pace and all round skills. He is a great link player and his ability to draw defenders and make space for others in open spaces is top draw.
Your assertion about Watson is clearly wrong.
Now Watson may be a better player that is as always open for debate but your starting position is clearly flawed.
AA let's not forget better Scottish locks as well. By his standards and as a touted Captain of the lions an anynomus tournament especially in a poor Welsh front five who played well yesterday, in all honesty the scrum looked better with T Falateu in there for the last twenty.
Better Scottish locks who crumbled v France and England??
The poor welsh front 5 who demolished ireland and stood toe to toe with England and France?
in all honesty the scrum looked better with T Falateu in there for the last twenty.
Francis going off and Lee coming on seemed to improve things. I very much dout Faletau pushes harder than AWJ!!
I'm not suggesting AWJ is a Lions captain, test player or even tour player but to claim he has been annonymous is as flawed as TJ's claims about Watson. AWJ has put in some very good shifts for Wales this 6 nations which co sidering the welsh tight five has Francis and Ball in it who are not international standard speaks volumes.
To claim the Tipuric is just a defencing flanker and not very fast and more of a six is plain bonkers.
I didn't say that
Now - lets move on eh? Lets not stink up a good thread with stupid argument.
Scottish locks
Ickle Jonny was poor by his standards the last two games. I don't know why.
Is it folk have worked him out or what I don't know but his performances the last two weeks took him further away from a lions place.
Onehudredthidiot
I am a big Russell fan but he is not lions material now and may never be. He needs familiar players around him because of the way he plays - he wouldn't get that for the lions and his high risk high reward game would give NZ too many opportunities. I think he is capable of sublime touches that no other NH 10 can do - but the flip side of that is he makes mistakes that none of them do either. He misses kicks to touch and remember that long looping pass under the posts against England. I think Farrell is mediocre at best but I'd play him for the lions before Russell because his more conventional style would be better for the lions
To claim the Tipuric is just a defencing flanker and not very fast and more of a six is plain bonkers.
I didn't say that
No you said he was more of a 6.5 and Watson the only true 7 in NH and could link play better than others. You then trotted out some stats to try and prove it, suggesting that Tipuric was a better defender from a game where Wales lost quite heavily...hence defended more and the stats showed Tips passed more anyway!!!
What is your point re Watson?
Well played Ireland, another GS goes begging in Dublin. Hardly a shock to find a ferocious and committed Irish side able to play with skill and nouse. Only saw first 5 minutes so comments based on reading thread and press. Recorded the game but will only watch short youtube highlights 😐
French game was extraordinary for the finish only, I thought Wales had done enough and Barnes was clear North had been bitten and it wan't inflicted by a Welshman was it even if video was unclear.
My point simply was I personally would like to find space for him for the lions as I think he is the sort of guy we need for them but I realise that many folk won't agree and that there is huge competition for back row places.
To some extent it depends on the style Gatland wants to play andthe combinations he likes. Watson is both up against players of similar type like Tips and guys of a different type. I doubt he will go on the lions but I thought it worth making a case for him as a "wildcard" given how wellhe has played this 6N
watson outplayed tips in the head to head. tips has the pedigree and experience. Watson has speed on his side and is improving game by game
From ESPN after the head to head game
7 Hamish Watson (Scotland)
The most influential substitute of the weekend. Was a questionable selection to leave Watson on the bench against Wales, but he took his chance with both hands when John Hardie limped off injured by beasting the breakdown against some fine fetchers in Warburton and Tipuric.
AA a poor front five who defended well, but have been out scrummaged in the main yesterday was an improvement, a lineout that has misfired at critical times and Owens is not the greatest thrower.
Howley can only work with what he has got and by your admission previously this is not a good Welsh front five.
