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There should be no relegation from the six nations, cricket has the same problem, you can't allow the ancient fixtures to disappear. The traditions are too important.
Guass - we met a perfect Storm in England and were roundly beaten. Bar that we are on the up ad up and have been for 3 years now - albeit from a very low place.
2 years ago whitwashed and scored 4 tries. 1 years ago won one game and scored 11 tries, this year 3 games won and scored 14 tries. Gone from 10th in the world rankings to 5th. All this with a team that is young and inexperienced and will not peak for at least 2 years yet.
mefty / Gauss
Its a really tricky one the promotion and relegation issue.
Georgia need more meaningful opposition and tournaments and we need to grow the game.
MY post on it was the result of a lot of thought.
are dropping down the rankings at a rate of knots!
Higher than we were last time the world cup seedings were decided!! This time 4 years ago we were ninth.
Hey, cheer up guys. We all get to wet ourselves over who gets Argentina in the RWC group. 😀
That right AA? I had forgotton. We were 10th IIRC
Who gets Argentinia - Scotland will of course 🙁 Nowt goes right for us grumble mutter moan
MY post on it was the result of a lot of thought.
If you gave it less thought you might come to the right conclusion.
Right? matter of opinion. Is it right Georgia can get no meaningful games?
matter of opinion
Precisely, so how much thought you gave it carries no weight.
Is it right Georgia can get no meaningful games
Playing Wales in Nov....oh hang on
Stade / Racing merger cancelled. French organisation at its best 🙂
http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39321038
Good on Wales for playing Georgia. It will give some clue as to how close to the 6N teams they are
I think Farrell is mediocre at best
That's a bit harsh given what he has been part of at a relatively young age - he's a double 6N winner, European cup winner plus premiership winner numerous times and was part of a white wash of Australia, in Australia. For a mediocre player, that's not a bad record.
He's not the most gifted creatively but he works hard and is generally solid in defense and kicks pretty well. I was certainly no fan, bit he had developed in the last 18 months.
Oh I agree - a good hard working player who makes few mistakes but is a creativity free zone and that holds England back. If England had a good 10 then they could play a specialist inside centre and would be a better team - but you have to work with what you have got and it appears England simply don't have those players available
I have to say, I don't get all the stick Farrell gets, he's a great player.
Anyway, interesting piece on Balls.ie where they have aggregated all the Lions XV from the weekend papers
Full-Back
Stuart Hogg is the main man here, picked by six of the eight writers. Those who went against the grain are Peter O'Reily, who went with Liam Williams, and Stephen Jones, who upheld his wavering support for Rob Kearney.
Wingers
George North is included in all eight teams, a remarkable turnaround for a man whose selection against Ireland was questioned by Welsh supporters. Anthony Watson and Elliot Daly are the next most popular, each with three picks. Liam and Scott Williams made an appearance each.
Centres
An English clean sweep: Owen Farrell and Jonathan Joseph the heavy favourites, with a couple of votes for Scott William a single call for Robbie Henshaw.
Out-half
Seven out of eight go with Johnny Sexton, Stephen Jones the outlier to nobody's surprise. ( He picks Owen Farrell).
Scrum-half
Once again, seven out of eight choose Conor Murray. The outlier? It's Jones, who selects Rhys Webb.
Number 8
No doubt here: all eight go with English wrecking ball, Billy Vunipola.
Flankers
Lots of different selections here: Sam Warbuton, Maro Itoje and Justin Tipuric all get four votes, while Sean O'Brien gets three. CJ Stander gets Jim Glennon's vote.
Second rows
Alun Wyn-Jones the most popular choice here, with six picks. Itoje and Joe Launchbury each get four, with one each for Richie Gray (Bernard Jackman) and Courtney Lawes (Stephen Jones).
Props
At loosehead, it's a tie between Ireland's Jack McGrath and England's Mako Vunipola. On the other side, Tadgh Furlong gets seven picks, with Neil Francis' choice of Dan Cole the only deviation.
Hooker
Jamie George is preferred to his England captain Dylan Hartley, with four picks to two. Hartley got as many picks as Wales' Ken Owens, with poor Rory Best nowhere to be seen.
The full team
15 - Stuart Hogg
14 - George North
13 - Jonathan Joseph
12 - Owen Farrell
11 - Anthony Watson/Elliot Daly
10 - Johnny Sexton
9 - Conor Murray
1 - Mako Vunipola/Jack McGrath
2 - Jamie George
3 - Tadgh Furlong
4 - Alun Wyn Jones
5 - Maro Itoje/Joe Launchbury
6 - Justin Tipuric/Maro Itoje
7 - Sam Warburton
8 - Billy Vunipola
You could (and we will!) argue over a couple of selections, but that's a pretty good team.
Tipuric at 6!?!?
Still dont see the George thing
Blindmelon.
On Farrell - IMO what he does is fine, its what he doesn't do that is the problem - he is slow between the ears and lacking in creativity. He is very steady and makes few mistakes but neither does he create space for those outside him or tie in defenders with his running game. He looks good in isolation but he doesn't improve the team.
Its just an opinion and I prefer mercurial mavericks to steady edddie players. I'd rather go down swinging 😉
ON the lions selections I think one issue is do you go for familiar combinations or the best player in each position? For example Sexton is clearly the best 10 available. So do you play Murray who is familiar with him and who had a good series or do you play Webb who IMO was the outstanding 9 of the series?
I wonder how many of the papers / journalists were scots?
I'd have Seymour and Dunbar in there altho I accept the England game made Dunbar look poor. I don't know the final stats - can't find any on turnovers but after (IIRC) 4 games Dunbar had more ruck steals than any other player forward or back
I'd love to make a case for Watson at 7 I thought he had a great series and was the best 7 in the tournament but until I can find the number of steals made I can't show this. Many foll would consider him too light and he is up against established players with fine reputations.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberStill dont see the George thing
Me too. I thought Best was the best.
until I can find the number of steals made I can't show
All it would show is which refs havent got the memo about not penalising holding on after the tackle.
Just looking at a single position but how far the Lions hooking options are behind Dane Coles is frightening.
On a separate note has anyone seen the pictures of ex springbok Joel Stransky after his MTB fall
[url= http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821580 ]Ouch![/url]
Reading half of the comments on here, anybody would think that England hadn't finished top, a clear bonus point win ahead of second!
Farrell.....oh yeah, absolutely ordinary player, no way is he one of the best kickers in the world and at the heart of pretty much all of an 18 game winning streak. Definitely think the Lions need Dunbar in there instead....
....and Hamish Watson too.....he can't get into the starting xv that finished fourth in the 6 nations, but definitely should start at 7 for the Lions 😆
Is it right Georgia can get no meaningful games
Playing Wales in Nov....oh hang on
I LOLd
Me too. I thought Best was the best.
Only thing he's "Best" at is having a massive brain fade and dropping his team in it at a crucial time. Not a penalty machine as such but a a huge pressure reliever for the other team!
Farrell is not an international class 10. He is a bery fine player and in particular an international level reliable short/medium range kicker. Much like Mike Catt his best position isn't at 10 in an England Shirt.
And if you pick Farrell at 12 you are missing out on better specialist 12s
Best leave him out then! 😆
What do we reckon to team of the tournament then? Rather than Lions squad....
I've got:
15: Hogg
14 Vakatawa or however you spell it
13: JJ
12: Farrell or Fickou
11: Daley
10: Sexton
9: Webb or Serin
8: Picamoles or Parise
7: Dunno
6: Stander
5: Lawes
4: Launchbury
3: Furlong
2: Best
1: Marler
7 Watson! *ducks and covers*
I think Sexton is fragile and can crumble under pressure.
Farrell is ok but doesn't set the barn alight, he does seem to have calmed down a lot.
WG will have a few surprises, cant see the Lions beating the All Blacks
If everyone if fit, Lions 10 is far and away Sexton. He isn't fragile or rubbish under pressure but he does have his fair share of injuries and head knocks to contend with. If Sexton were to play then I can't see Farrell at 12 at all so it is 10 or nothing for him IMO (unless they were daft enough to play Ford!).
And if you pick Farrell at 12 you are missing out on better specialist 12s
Agreed but we don't have another suitable kicker. Ford's kicking isn't reliable enough.
I think Sexton is fragile and can crumble under pressure.
To be fair to him, he got back up after some dubious hits on Saturday and kicked well. I thought he took a fair old battering, most of it legal and no doubt a tactic from Jones, but a lot of it wasn't great either. Thank Christ the green machine won, there'd be no end of whinging otherwise.
For the lions that should not be an issue.
Player of the championship
apparently the 6n folk have done some clever number crunching and come up with this list of players. Who would you go for?
Louis Picamoles (France)
CJ Stander (Ireland)
Finn Russell (Scotland)
Camille Lopez (France)
Maro Itoje (England)
Owen Farrell (England)
Joe Launchbury (England)
Stuart Hogg (Scotland)
Conor Murray (Ireland)
Sergio Parisse (Italy)
Rhys Webb (Wales)
Ken Owens (Wales)
I'd go for Hogg or Webb coin toss between them
http://www.rbs6nations.com/RBSPlayerOfTheChampionship#YMGVRiEXgHDfYqY7.97
Dunbar or Hamish Watson obviously 🙂
Or Hogg, Launchbury and Stander...probably Hogg.
Farrell.....oh yeah, absolutely ordinary player, no way is he one of the best kickers in the world and at the heart of pretty much all of an 18 game winning streak
6N 2017 kicking stats:
Sexton 100% Jackson 93% Lopez 92% Halfpenny 88% Russell 88% Laidlaw 83% Farrell 78%
[url= http://goalkickers.co.za/ ]goalkickers.co[/url] only have stats for the first 3 rounds (where they assign difficulty ratings) but had Farrell 12th out of 13!
He has no pace, no step, no power, no creativity and isn't a great tackler. He does run around looking tough but he only gets away with that 'coz his dad's proper hard.
So apart from his "world class kicking" what does he bring?
Owen Farrell is rubbish, that is why he is in pretty much every Lions selection that is in the papers and that is why Ian McGeechan said he was the player of the tournament. Obviously if you are narrow minded and think that Jamie Roberts was the epitome of what an Inside Centre should be, then maybe he isn't the best in the Six Nations, but if you realise that different types of players can excel in the same position then there is no question he is right up there.
Owen Farrell is rubbish
Couldn't agree more. 😉
Oh - you wrote more.....
I think Ma'a Nonu is the epitome of what an inside centre should be but, failing that, how about someone who can run AND pass?
I really don't get it. If Ford was a better kicker would Farrell still be at 12? If Farrell was England's best 10 why isn't he at 10?
Look if the only score available in rugby was a try and no kicking allowed would Farrell still be in everyone's team at 12? What does he bring to the centre position that makes him so invaluable?
He's not a bad passer and not a bad kicker - anything else?
All the discussions about Georgia - Romania won 6Nb!
Ah missed that! Didn't Italy smash Romania recently too? (Maybe in the last RWC?)
Edit, it was at the RWC, but was only 32-22. I'd argue that Italy have gotten worse since then too....definitely think that they play off thing is worth looking into.
The main reason that Farrell is at 12 is the lack of alternatives, and that Ford can't play there.
Since MT got injured, england have suffered with a lack of centres, see the selection of O'Teo. EJ obviously didn't fancy giving Barritt more caps.
Given a proper 12, I think ford might be warming the bench.
The main reason that Farrell is at 12 is the lack of alternatives
It is not it is because he is very good in the position, he may not be line breaker, but his combination of being straight onto the defence, rather than crabbing. his range of passing and kicking gives England a wide variety of attacking options. Matt Giteau performed a similar role for Australia with some success as have others - there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I think Ma'a Nonu is the epitome of what an inside centre should be but, failing that, how about someone who can run AND pass?
IIRC, Nonu was first a brilliant runner, and crash ball artiste a la Tindall, and had a lot of attention in NZ to work on the rest of his skills to keep him in the AB's.
He's not a bad passer and not a bad kicker - anything else?
He's a pretty good defender, and a bit edgy, and kids copy his haircut.
It is not it is because he is very good in the position, he may not be line breaker, but his combination of being straight onto the defence, rather than crabbing. his range of passing and kicking gives England a wide variety of attacking options. Matt Giteau performed a similar role for Australia with some success as have other - there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Funny you shoud say that - a while ago I said Jones wanted Farrell as a Giteau-a-like, but was poo pooed. Just like my prediction of the Irish turning us over.
See, I'm right some of the time.
Given a proper 12, I think ford might be warming the bench.
Indeed, anyway Ford and Faz seemed to do alright v Scotland!
Slade could be the answer for England.
Sorry guys - Farrell is nothing like s good as Giteau
Ford and Farrell also did pretty well against Wales, especially in the last few minutes I seem to recall 😀
Sorry guys - Farrell is nothing like s good as Giteau
Who said he was?
Matt Giteau performed a similar role for Australia
Good point but Giteau was also a threat with ball in hand and had all the attributes Farrell lacks.
He's a pretty good defender, and a bit edgy, and kids copy his haircut.
I don't think he's that good - IIRC he's fallen off plenty of tackles. You don't want your 10/12 edgy, you want them cool but I'll concede the haircut point..... 😉
Slade could be the answer for England
Hallelujah! Takes a flippin' Welshman to spot what's under our noses! Slade could be good. Eastmond could've been good too but I think he's heading back to RL.
We either need a 12 with the skills to be a second fly-half but also to be a threat on his own or a bosher like Te'o (and his armguard) who can get over the gainline but also distribute when required.
....meanwhile in the actual real world, Farrell keeps winning plaudits from those seemingly in the know.
...meanwhile in the actual real world, Farrell keeps winning plaudits from those seemingly in the know.
Ignoring experts is flavour of the month
Ford and Farrell also did pretty well against Wales, especially in the last few minutes I seem to recall
👿
Indeed they did but in a Lions context I dont think we need to put up with Fords weaknesses. He just doesnt seem to stamp his authority on the game imo.
We either need a 12 with the skills to be a second fly-half but also to be a threat on his own or a bosher like Te'o (and his armguard) who can get over the gainline but also distribute when required.
Time machine and Henson!!
Tom B - Member....meanwhile in the actual real world, Farrell keeps winning plaudits from those seemingly in the know.
Seemingly is the key word. The english rugby establishment want a poster boy to take over from St Jonny and Farrell is the guy they picked
Farrell certainly divides opinions like few other players with a very marmite view of him
No denying England flow better without Farrell at 10 so I can't see him there for the Lions. Ford/ Farrell seems to work but I can not imagine them lining up like that in red. Sexton/ Farrell would be a waste of Sexton's unique attributes IMO unless you have a very hard working attacking back 3 to do the job Farrell should be doing in attack in the centres, running clever lines, which I guess is actually possible this time around. Very talented at what he does and rarely makes a mistake... hard to fit in a Lions side but hard to leave out too if we are honest.
No denying England flow better with[s]out[/s] Farrell at [s]10[/s] 12
FIFY
There are some players who just aren't flashy or don't do enough eye-catching stuff for some people to notice them. They don't run like JJ, or throw a huge loop pass every once in a while like Ford but they are consistent.
These players are eternally under-estimated, particularly by those who don't know to look for this stuff. Players like Robshaw, Kruis and yes, Farrell (Haskell too until recently). Every year they seem to be down talked before a competition and then they prove themselves once again. England may have reverted to the form they showed in the first game, but Farrell has had a positive tournament. He exits the competition with as much credit as any of the england backs, perhaps except Daly.
Faz, whilst not anywhere near as good or sexy!!! as Henson is similar in the way that he doesnt seem to do that much but players around him seem to start playing much better
Indeed, anyway Ford and Faz seemed to do alright v Scotland!
Slade could be the answer for England.
Slade could well be the answer, but I think Exeter are going to shunt him to 10 and so far I'm yet to be convinced by him at 10. He looks like a quality centre but hasn't quite shown the form that won him plaudits before his injury.
Meanwhile, Tigers have sacked off Mauger with five games left and bought back O'Conner. They're in a proper pickle at the moment.
Meanwhile, Tigers have sacked off Mauger with five games left and bought back O'Conner. They're in a proper pickle at the moment.
Quite! First they sack Cockerill in favour of Mauger then they sack Mauger. Perhaps cockers wasn't the problem?
Farrell certainly divides opinions like few other players with a very marmite view of him
If marmite divided the world like owen farrell, they would be over the moon; their sales would rocket. I am yet to find a Lions XV he is not chosen in.
I've seen a few mefty - although I am very surprised at the amount of support he has amongst the pundits.
Link one then
Farrell? There's something wrong with his eyes. Reminds me of Murdoch from the A-Team.
Or Frankenstein
Times pundits pick their Lions XVSTEPHEN JONES
R Kearney, G North, J Joseph, S Williams, A Watson, O Farrell, R Webb, B Vunipola, S Warburton, M Itoje, C Lawes, AW Jones, T Furlong, D Hartley, J McGrath
LAWRENCE DALLAGLIO
S Hogg, G North, J Davies, O Farrell, E Daly, J Sexton, C Murray, B Vunipola, J Tipuric, S O’Brien, J Launchbury, M Itoje, T Furlong, D Hartley, M Vunipola
STUART BARNES
S Hogg, G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, A Watson, J Sexton, C Murray, B Vunipola, S O’Brien, S Warburton, M Itoje, AW Jones, T Furlong, K Owens, M Vunipola
PETER O’REILLY
L Williams, G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, A Watson, J Sexton, C Murray, B Vunipola, S O’Brien, M Itoje, J Launchbury, AW Jones, D Cole, J George, J McGrath
How anyone can pick Itoje at 6 is beyond me. He has been outplayed a number of times Warburton, POM, Stander are all better...first name at lock though surely. Suprised AWJ gets picked so much. What does Daly have to do to get a look in?
Steven Jones is clearly bonkers or trolling with Karney, he couldnt tackle a kebab and no Launchbury. Not sure what Dilly Dally sees in Jonathan Abu Hamzar Davies.
Loving Stephen jones picks above - actually different to his picks in the ST article next to it!
I am getting a hair cut today, I will ask for a Farrell 😀
You might need laser eye surgery to go with it Pigface
There are some players who just aren't flashy or don't do enough eye-catching stuff for some people to notice them. They don't run like JJ, or throw a huge loop pass every once in a while like Ford but they are consistent.
These players are eternally under-estimated
I totally agree. Remember Paul Dodge? He was exactly like that.
I still don't see what Farrell brings at 12 - if you took kicking out of the equation.
What about relegation if a team is whitewashed? Means every game means something to the team at the bottom, and if you are whitewashed then maybe you aren't at the standard required for 6 Nations. It doesn't happen that often (think Italy were the last team to be whitewashed and that was 4 years ago? Sure someone will correct me though!) and if you are winning at least a game then you have a right to be in the competition
Pretty sure Italy were whitewashed this year and last year. Scotland were whitewashed in 2015.
Yeah OK happens a bit more than I thought...but only to Scotland and Italy, so that is fine
😉
No one caught for the bite. Now looking at this theres only 2 people it could have been and he certainly didnt do it himself as Noves suggested
https://mobile.twitter.com/daibaker/status/843831227031412737/video/1
I'm still putting my money on Huget.
Leicester going through changes
I am surprised by inclusion of AWJ as Launchbury has played better, Ijote is better in second row ( so many good back rowers including Watson) Lawes has upped his game.
I am not denying that AWJ is a wonderful player and an asset to a team but he has a quiet tournament by his standards, I wonder how much the captaincy took the edge off?
Experience will count in the selection of the lions so AWJ will be in the plane.
Jones says that the lions should have four captains!!! Well why not they appear to have 2 head coaches from the amount he talks about it...someobe should tell him his time on stage is over for a few months and to shut the **** up and spend sometime thinking how to get England a decent backrow....
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39347452
https://www.thelocal.fr/20170322/irish-kiwi-and-aussie-rugby-players-held-in-france-over-rape
French rugby is in a right state, isn't it?