Actually, I think that the abiding lesson from the opioid crisis is that the addiction leads to the chaos and not the other way round in many cases.
If you are rteffering to oxycontin in the US then yes - prescribed opiates led to addiction and chaos. However the heroin addicts from the sink estates in the UK its shit life syndrome IMO
I think that the abiding lesson from the opioid crisis
The opioid crisis is an entirely different issue to the harm caused by recreational drug use. Addiction to opioids is mostly a result of aggressive marketing and dubious research by big pharma than the result of people choosing to use drugs and then falling victim to them.
There’s massive crossover between the two.
Well it's funny but I don't know anyone in the UK who uses opioids recreationally. I know loads of people who frequently use weed, MDMA, mushrooms, coke, alcohol etc but I've yet to come across anyone using opioids so I don't think it's the problem you're making it out to be. The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors. It's not a recreational drugs issue.
The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors.
I do not think that is true at all. UK doctors are very careful about prescribing opioids to the point they may be under prescribed. In the US this might be true
*klaxon* Irony alert *klaxon*
this has been a nice polite debate - can we keep it that way ta?
can we keep it that way ta?
You're telling the wrong person TJ.
Addiction to opioids is mostly a result of aggressive marketing and dubious research by big pharma than the result of people choosing to use drugs and then falling victim to them.
And
Addiction to heroin is mostly the result of aggressive marketing by drugs gangs rather than the result of people choosing to use drugs and falling victim to them
Aren't actually that far apart...
Addiction to heroin is mostly the result of aggressive marketing by drugs gangs rather than the result of people choosing to use drugs and falling victim to them
In over 30 years of taking various recreational drugs (although admittedly not heroin) I've never once come across a dealer or gang aggressively pushing (or 'marketing') a drug. If anything it's the other way round, the demand from users often outstrips supply and the people selling them are reacting to that demand rather than generating it themselves.
As the US surgeon general noted, “Tobacco is more addictive and damaging than heroin”.
Afaik, the govt in the late 1960’s proposed measures to wean heroin users off it.
When the conservatives took over, these proposals were abandoned. Deliberately trying to create ‘Kaoss’? Who knows.
In Scotland, it’s merely furthered what is basically ethnic cleansing as a means of whittling down the population and staving off any expansion back into the highlands.
As for cannabis…
In Canada, the cultivation and distribution is still in the hands of criminals.
The legal growers are still playing catch up.
From my brief experience in the Netherlands, the police don’t so much turn a blind eye, as condone its use.
They appreciate it when tourists use the coffee shops, as it saves the police from having to waste precious resources, chasing people around town.
Theres always an argument when a progression policy is mooted of “well what about the teenagers? Won’t they all become addicts?”
Doesnt seem that way for the Dutch. The ‘yoot’ don’t cluster around, passing doobies.
Without a coherent message from the drinks lobby, the Dutch seem to respect the weed and its smokers.
Were not revered quite like sports stars, but there’s a healthy sense of astonishment from the residents.
Priest-class?
And whatever you smoke, there’s always a risk of cancer. More so with tobacco, but always present.
Kind of odd when the German tourists snort with derision at the smell of a doobie, but when they return home, they’ll spend four hours perched over their barbecue???
And ironically, it’s that demographic (retired), are probably the ones who’ll receive the most benefit from the weed.
They’ll be able to run diagnostics to their hearts content.
As for psychosis, it’s alcohol that makes people paranoid AF.
But I’d argue that psychosis is hard wired into the human psyche. Part of the human condition.
When push comes to shove, most people of all ages have absolutely no concept of reality, in any way, whatsoever.
Its not surprising that people can undergo psychosis.
Mental fitness, whatever, is just as much of a hard won struggle as gender identity.
Ive experienced verbal gender reassignment from my peers, even when in my twenties. That kind of nonsense, I had already dealt with in my very, very early youth.
When the conservatives took over, these proposals were abandoned
I think they were happy to let it carry on, IIRC it was Regan personally who lent on Thatcher to put a stop to it, as it was out of step with his own policy (the war on drugs) Folks in Liverpool were sacrificed to transatlantic relationships.
In Canada, the cultivation and distribution is still in the hands of criminals.
That's not strictly true... I Know first hand from a Canadian friend.. He grows a few plants on his land, just for personal use really...
Much like someone might grow tomatoes or whatever. He doesn't sell it.. But he does trade small amounts and cuttings with like minded friends who have grown a different strain or whatever.
No cartels or big pharma in sight.
Of course you need a garden or allotment or something to do that otherwise you have to buy it from somewhere if you want it.. Be that a licenced operator or traditional black market dealer.
In Canada, the cultivation and distribution is still in the hands of criminals.
I am not sure how this can be as the industry is now legal ie both growing and selling is fully legal in a controlled and regulated market. do you mean its the same people? Weed is tested, stuff is taxed, there is a high degree of regulation
I am not sure how this can be as the industry is now legal ie both growing and selling is fully legal in a controlled and regulated market. do you mean its the same people? Weed is tested, stuff is taxed, there is a high degree of regulation
I'm guessing he means legal dispensaries that may be sourcing bulk product from producers that are not always totally legit, possibly even proper criminals.
That's more a commercial supply chain issue, and not the experience I have from 'informal co-op's' for want of a better term, who are basically just very small scale home growers who help each other out, rather than growing it to sell for profit as a business.
I'm not sure how that can be as the stuff in the shops has a tested and approved type seal on it like cigarettes in the UK with the tax paid seal on them.
Its not dispensaries really - its shops. I do not see shops knowingly selling black or grey market stuff - if caught they would lose their license to sell and there is plenty of legal product to sell.
Its a tightly controlled market. I am willing to be proved wrong but I don't see how it could be a major issue.
I think a lot of the growers may have been illegal growers before the legalisation but that is surely a good thing as they will now be paying taxers and being inspected and the products tested.
In Scotland, it’s merely furthered what is basically ethnic cleansing as a means of whittling down the population and staving off any expansion back into the highlands.
wow! Scotland has a drugs problem. The problem is not unique to the big cities. I’ll buy that governments of all colours and all locations don’t give it the priority they should - and often regard it as self inflicted harm. BUT as a policy of intentionally removing an ethnic group it’s a pretty shit one: which ethnicity is it targeting? what %age of that group has it removed?
Well it’s funny but I don’t know anyone in the UK who uses opioids recreationally.
do you think that’s because your social circles don’t involve injecting drug users?
The people in the UK who are addicted to opioids are mostly people who were prescribed them by doctors. It’s not a recreational drugs issue.
i don’t think that’s true. Its quite possibly true for the US but in the UK we never really had the same drug company opioid push here, and a healthcare system that’s funded in a way that doesn’t benefit doctors by overprescribing. Moreover, if you end up addicted to prescription medicine in the UK there’s much less reason to resort to street drugs - in the US once the meds (or the underlying health issue you were taking them for) mean you lose your job - you lose your healthcare insurance and access to the doctor who got you hooked!
but it’s not a “fun” or “party” drug issue - people taking opiates are doing it to escape a miserable life probably inflicted on them by others and with no easy way out; so yes not a “recreational” drug in the sense of it being a game but very much not usually starting with prescription opiates.
I’m not sure how that can be as the stuff in the shops has a tested and approved type seal on it like cigarettes in the UK with the tax paid seal on them.
Its not dispensaries really – its shops. I do not see shops knowingly selling black or grey market stuff – if caught they would lose their license to sell and there is plenty of legal product to sell
You might well be right, I'm not disagreeing, all I can say is my own experience, if you get to know people in certain circles, there are networks of very small scale personal growers, which is technically 'black market' but it's not a money making scheme, it's just groups of people who grow a handfull of plants for thier own use, and help each other out.
My friend for example, if his few plants get eaten by a marauding goat or just die or something, then he can lean on some friends to get some new cuttings etc, as you can grow your own as long as you don't get silly with it, the police really won't give a damn.
My friend just grows his own as it's totaly legal in small amounts, and so do his friends, as long as you don't go commercial with it, it's a better way of doing it.
Ah - yes I am sure that still happens - and thats legal to grow a small amount at home and gifting small amounts Is again I think OK
The sooner we move to a legalised production model for consumers the better, this is how it’s sold in Canada, comes in a sealed package with exact THC/CBD terpenoids listed on the packaging (my aunt sends these over) so you know exactly what you are buying.
My opinion on drug use/decriminalisation has been done to death before on the forum and I imagine most are aware of my experience in growing so I won’t bore you all with it again, growing for personal use/clubs with friends should be totally legal.
Drugs other than cannabis/hash/oil should also be decriminalised and made available to users, the idea of a state deciding what I am allowed to consume/take is utterly absurd and throughout my life I have ignored the law
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Re:Canada. What I heard was that whilst there is legal weed, most of the cultivation facilities know-how, etc, is still in the hands of the criminal gangs.
Re: Scotland. There’s been about a thousand drugs deaths per annum. Maybe they were the direct descendants of Robert the Bruce?
Such affrontery!
I guess at a level above the Scottish govt, someone decided that it would require too much resources to combat generation upon generation of poverty. So they hit reset, handed out ‘hot-shots’, and hived out any kids to better-heeled foster parents.
As for any perceived population, encroaching onto the highland estates.
The theory is that the USA feared an increase in the African population. Was AIDS engineered to achieve population control?
Who knows.
Certainly, by stigmatising the use of condoms, the papacy was instrumental in those countries holocaust.
Re:Canada. What I heard was that whilst there is legal weed, most of the cultivation facilities know-how, etc, is still in the hands of the criminal gangs.
As they are licensed and inspected I do not think that can be true. Is it that its the same folk growing but they have moved into the legal market? that may be true ( infact I think it probably is given that the legal market has such high quality products. people who know how to grow good stuff are growing it) but then they are no longer a criminal gang - they are a legal and licensed grower paying taxes etc. One of the key things was to get the money out of the hands of the criminals to avoid the situation they have in the netherlands
colorado tried to freeze out anyone who grew in the black market and as a result the legal product was so poor no one wanted it. They had to backtrack
I do not know the details tho and am not certain.
I must say I find this very refreshing that we have no real " all drugs are bad just say no" nonsense and a nice willingness to consider harm reduction approaches. also interesting that a few folk would go further than I would on this. Clesarly there is an appetite for a change in the laws
Nice discussion
Anyone watched Murder Mountain on Netflix? Covers some of the growers trying to go legal, really good series, it's a totally outlaw part of California.
As they are licensed and inspected I do not think that can be true. Is it that its the same folk growing but they have moved into the legal market?
Back in the late 90’s/early 2000’s there was a web forum dedicated to cannabis growing/production called Overgrow that proved so popular that it was shut down/raided by the Canadian government around 2005, I was on it a lot in the early days and occasionally worked as a moderator/tech and nutritional advice for the hydroponics forum and out of this came an explosion in home growers.
A mate from Ayrshire moved over to BC in 2004 to work on an illegal grow and now has a few large legal grows supplying the commercial market, the amounts of money generated from the production/sale of what is a weed is quite staggering.
If Labour wanted to generate a few billion then legalise it in this country, follow what has worked in other countries and do it now.
I guess at a level above the Scottish govt, someone decided that it would require too much resources to combat generation upon generation of poverty. So they hit reset, handed out ‘hot-shots’, and hived out any kids to better-heeled foster parents.
? I’m not saying you are wrong that fixing multigenerational poverty is a huge challenge and people at a loss to do anything other than intervene on a case by case basis might well feel it’s too hard to solve so do little - but that’s not quite what ethnic cleansing is about and suggesting it is does a disservice to all the victims of genocide globally as well as making it too easy for government to shrug off the legitimate complaint of institutionalised poverty as ridiculous exaggerations.
As for any perceived population, encroaching onto the highland estates.
drugs are problem in every small highland town, indeed they might be more of a problem there than in the big cities. I’m sure that most highland estates would actually welcome working age population growth now.
The theory is that the USA feared an increase in the African population. Was AIDS engineered to achieve population control?
ah, sorry I didn’t realise we were dealing with conspiracy nonsense.
the idea of a state deciding what I am allowed to consume/take is utterly absurd and throughout my life I have ignored the law
How about if the state needs to pick up the pieces / cover the costs? There is a point at which your freedom to do as you wish impinges on other folks freedoms. Speed limits are an obvious place where this sort of principle is used.
I am particularly thinking of the human wrecks I have seen in the big cities worldwide. Their healthcare costs must be huge.
How about if the state needs to pick up the pieces / cover the costs? There is a point at which your freedom to do as you wish impinges on other folks freedoms. Speed limits are an obvious place where this sort of principle is used.
Where did you pluck the speed limit simile from? - it doesn't belong nor make sense in this discussion, I was commenting on the understanding we were talking about drug regulation and illegality, personal drug use does not impinge on others safety (with notable exceptions).
Living in a small fishing community here in kirkcudbright i've lost 6 mates, and could name another 3 from drug overdoses, could legal heroin on prescription have saved them?, in a few cases, yes for sure.
I think we’ll see decriminalisation at some point in the U.K. Not smoked weed for ages but if I could pop to the shop for an edible on a Friday night to chill out I might once in a while.
Amazes me how many younger folk are into Coke and I see it everywhere in my town. Obvious trips to the toilet etc. Dealers mass marketing via WhatsApp etc. Easier than ordering a pizza.
OK maybe a poor simile - its where restrictions are put on personal freedom for the good of all. absolute personal freedom does not really exist. I'm with you on prescription heroin. I thought you were advocating full legalization of everything.
personal drug use does not impinge on others safety (with notable exceptions).
Thats the point - about where we draw the line. I think cocaine in combination with alcohol is responsible for a lot of violence. I see no harm reduction argument for liberalising laws on it, I see good reason to keep it illegal I think in the case of cocaine useage of it does impinge on others with the possibility of violence
Was it not the case that marijuana was criminalised in the US because it was feared that post-slavery black people using it might become rebellious? I believe Queen Victoria consumed dope to aid her in childbirth, fair oot! Drug laws are all tied up with politics, business, the DM, hypocrisy. Blimey just think of all the deadly crap that is fast food, sugar, alcohol and fizzy pop. The legal availability of graded, light to heavy duty weed could keep people away from the more dangerous stuff. MJ is not a gateway drug any more than mother's milk is.
Was it not the case that marijuana was criminalised in the US because it was feared that post-slavery black people using it might become rebellious?
Yes . J Edgar Hoover the head of the FBI and Harry J. Anslinger in the 30s completely racist. As much against Mexicans and Black fork I believe but different accounts vary
MJ was the gateway to smoking bloody cigarettes in my case. I'd made it all the way to 19 without smoking, it took me 10 years to stop!
In the end I quit both and my life miraculously improved.
TJ after I wrote that it occurred to me it came from 'Whose Law, What Order' by Chambliss and Mankoff. Without recreational drugs we may well have missed out on the lakeland poets, Sigmund Freud, William Burroughs, Ernest Hemingway, Hockney, but with legalisation we may have saved the lives of Hendrix, Joplin, Jones, etc etc.
Legalising weed solves the smoking side of it as good reliable edibles are suddenly an easy option. I'm not sure whether impatience would mean a rise in smoking it or not, though
Pretty hardcore ritualistic stuff, but as it’s an endangered species, it’s incumbent for us to legally cultivate it here in the uk.
Consumption is another matter:
This is why we need a rational drugs policy based around harm reduction. many of these synthetics are pretty nasty
That is grim reading. I got a load of vape awareness stuff from my daughter’s high school, I thought they were overreacting tbh. But those are worryingly high percentages to be full of shite.
but with legalisation we may have saved the lives of Hendrix
Jimi died as a result of taking sleeping pills and mixing them with alcohol, vomiting in his sleep and choking to death. Not alone in making that mistake.
Worth purchasing a kindle for this alone:
The Emperor Wears No Clothes: A History of Cannabis/Hemp/Marijuana https://amzn.eu/d/0hPCvgzE
Hemp was too much of a rival to the emerging petrochemical fibres (rayon, nylon).
though, imho it was more about centralising revenue streams, to be channeled into the arms industry, Israel, etc).
I've not really read most of this to be honest and I'm not sure if my point here is even relevant but I'd just like to say that the hard drug scene at this moment at least in Britain is awash with synthetic drugs called nitazines. These are found in most pill or powdered substances and are bad news.
According to my wife who works for Milton Keynes addiction recovery services the staff are now seeing this synthetic drug in pretty much everything sold on the streets.. even in cannabis!
Apparently there is pretty much NO heroin on the streets right now and it's been substituted for this synthetic stuff which is in many cases way stronger than heroin and the users often overdose as they have no way to know what amount is safe. The Taliban have almost stopped all heroin production which is what Britain was being supplied with so that's the reason for the disappearance of traditional brown heroin. Like I said I'm not sure if this is valid to the initial points raised but it certainly puts a slightly different stance on things if you don't even know what drugs you are even being sold?
That might apply to drugs like weed or LSD but it currently appears that pill/powder stuff is being cut with this stuff before it gets to our shores so any legalised or regulated agency may not be able to obtain "clean gear" so users will still be forced to use what's going around.
