TJ
Cyclists habitually ride through red lights and don't comply with the law regarding lights etc.
Proven beyond any doubt.
Unfortunately squirrelking the actual data on cyclists shows it to be less than 10% from te only research I have seen whereas for grouse moors the data proves that criminality runs right thru it. Of course with driven grouse shooting its not the guns breaking the law but the organisers but with fox hunting its the hunters breaking the law.
Have you not seen the data? Is it worth my while linking to it or is your mind closed on it? The data is damning. Incontrovertible.
I'll look at the data quite happily but I'm unconvinced that literally every shoot is involved in criminality as you claim. It's as stupid as any other gross generalisation.
Where did I say every shoot? I said " criminality runs right thru it" ( the pastime) and it does. I'm tired and its late for me so I'll post up the evidence tomorrow
Scapegoat
The majority of the UK’s shooting organisations oppose it vocally, and encourage their members to report and disassociate themselves from estates and organisations where such criminality is suspected.
This is laughable
The new Moorland association chair lord Masham of the Swinton estate is a known raptor killer. 2 tagged hen harriers shot on the estate. ( So how many untagged?) One gamekeeper convicted for setting pole traps. He is the new chairman
Using data from 58 satellite tracked hen harriers, we show high rates of unexpected tag
failure and low first year survival compared to other harrier populations. The likelihood
of harriers dying or disappearing increased as their use of grouse moors increased. Similarly,
at the landscape scale, satellite fixes from the last week of life were distributed disproportionately on grouse moors in comparison to the overall use of such areas.
indicating that harriers were ten times more likely to die (I and N) or disappear (SNM) in areas dominated by grouse moors
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-09044-w
Shows a clear pattern of eagle killing on grouse moors
Overall, we conclude that a relatively large number of the satellite tagged golden
eagles were probably killed, mostly on or near some grouse moors where there
is recent, independent evidence of illegal persecution.
46. This illegal killing has such a marked effect on the survival rates of the young
birds that the potential capacity for the breeding golden eagle population
continues to be suppressed around where this persecution largely occurs. In
these parts, mainly in the central and eastern Highlands of Scotland, the
prospects for recovery are poor.
Thats just a couple of bits of the evidence. I'll do some more later
Ok not hard data but backed by hard data
But this is hard data accepted as such by the scottish government
Almost a third of golden eagles being tracked by satellite died in suspicious circumstances, scientists have found.
Scottish Natural Heritage’s report looked at 131 young golden eagles between 2004 and 2016, and found that 41 had disappeared in suspicious circumstances, with clusters of suspicious disappearances arising in six areas associated with grouse moor management
.
Ms Cunningham ( government minister)said:
“The findings of this research are deeply concerning and will give rise to legitimate concerns that high numbers of golden eagles, and other birds of prey, continue to be killed in Scotland each year. There is every reason to believe that similar levels of persecution affect untagged golden eagles, as well as those we are able to track via satellite tags.
https://news.gov.scot/news/golden-eagle-deaths
Widespread use of carbofuran baits to poison raptors. Carbofuran has been illegal to hold for years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-22846749
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/may/27/gamekeeper-banned-pesticide-fined
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/oct/18/hen-harriers-grouse-moors
Where did I say every shoot? I said ” criminality runs right thru it”
You do realise that means as near as the same thing?
I don't have time to read the papers, I'll be interested to see what the distribution of these killings is, whether relatively equal or concentrated in certain areas.
I don't doubt for a second it happens nor do I endorse it in any way shape or form however I prefer to see facts to back things up rather than blanket sensationalist statements. Whilst it's an emotive subject you're convincing nobody by using such unmoderated language.
Anyway, cheers for the links, hopefully I'll get some time to look at them later.
The killings are concentrated on grouse moors. 
Its incontrovertible
I prefer to see facts to back things up rather than blanket sensationalist statements
I think peer reviewed papers in Nature are as close to facts as we can get.
Scapegoat:
Organisations such as the RSPB, Raptor Persecution UK and LACS have a history of deliberate misinformation. Their agenda is to stop the practice of game shooting, and have gone about this in a number of ways.
And that’s a totally fine position to take. Animals should not be shot for sport, simple. There is not a single argument for sport hunting that holds water.
It needs to be said again. The data that shows the scale and spread of raptor persecution is robust and valid. There is no misinformation from that side
What there is is huge attempts at misinformation and attempting to falsify stuff from the shooting side.
This is also proven beyond all doubt.
You can hide the corpses, you can hide the tags. You cannot hide from the patterns of the data. Laying individual blame is difficult because of the nature of the crimes. Showing that grouse estates kill raptors as a widespread practice and in large numbers is proven
I don’t doubt for a second it happens nor do I endorse it in any way shape or form however I prefer to see facts to back things up rather than blanket sensationalist statements
Whilst TJAgain was incorrect to use the term "shooting" with regards to driven grouse moors the statement is clearly correct and, if you found the time to read those papers, it would be somewhat surprising if you didnt draw the same conclusion.
The history of poisoning, trapping and nowadays mysterious tag failures around grouse moors tell their own story.
dissonance - what term should I use? I guess shooting also includes deer stalking and the like so I see your point
"Driven grouse moor shooting" is one heck of a clumsy phrase. Pretty obvious what I was talking about
FWIW I have no moral objection to killing animals to eat. Even if folk get fun from it and so long as the populations can sustain the number of kills
I live in north west Leeds where there has been a successful Red Kite breeding program going for some time. A couple of weeks ago a Red Kite was found shot dead not far from here.Absolute stunning creatures that only take carrion and are no threat to anyone or anything.
Pretty obvious what I was talking about
It is a clumsy phrase but the problem is people will deliberately choose to misread it and try to divert the discussion.
In addition using Driven Grouse shooting makes it clear where one of the major problems is in terms of persecution and other negative impacts on the environment and separates it out from something like walk up grouse shooting which can be done sustainably and without massive negative impact on the environment.
Like you I dont have a problem with shooting as such but there does seem to be a tipping point where it goes from where someone can spend a day out on the hills or in the woods and come back empty handed but happy to something where the person needs to come back with the deer/suitable numbers of dead birds. Often a commercial thing but not always. Its at that stage that the persecution and manipulation of the environment skyrockets.
Ta
**** game hunting. Same as fox hunting. It’s a dinosaur practice
Squirrelking summed up the answer to thisAlthough I can’t imagine the excitement of shooting pheasant - creatures bred to have the survival instinct of a depressed Fleming.
I personally think killing raptors on shooting estates should be a strict liability offence with the liability falling on the landowner rather than the underpaid hired help paid to do what they are told.
It will never happen judging from the judgements and sentences handed out in the few cases where it has ever come to court in the past
Not really pest control, raptors get mobbed by all birds, just to drive them away from nesting areas, which aren’t threatened by buzzards or kites anyway, or at least not in trees; ground nesting is different, because buzzards and kites are ground feeding scavengers. The magpie was probably conflicted with the kite and the raven, because other corvids can and will mob ravens, I’ve seen it happen numerous times, including at work, where there’s a pair of ravens around, along with a bunch of crows, and I’ve watched three crows dive-bombing one of the ravens after it perched in one of ‘their’ trees.
Yeah, it's actually quite fun.
The Corvid's all play their own games and defend their own territories but they seem to have become way more organised against the Red Kites as it's harassed from one to the next. It's like they wait whilst it's driven from one to the next and the lone magpie looked pretty comical. Whereas I can see the Raven is a real threat and much more aerobatic than the Kite the lone Magpie looked somewhat out of it's depth.
Bloody raptors get all the attention/headlines...
It's also many other species. Grouse moors are covered in traps for smaller rodents and trailer loads of hare are shot (and dumped). The estates create a vast desert managed for only one purpose and are pretty sterile other than the grouse, the deer and a few sheep to act as tick mops.
Thing is, we're beginning to see what the alternative could look like thanks to the likes of the Cairngorms Connect project and the great example of Glen Feshie estate.
It is a clumsy phrase but the problem is people will deliberately choose to misread it and try to divert the discussion.
In addition using Driven Grouse shooting makes it clear where one of the major problems is in terms of persecution and other negative impacts on the environment and separates it out from something like walk up grouse shooting which can be done sustainably and without massive negative impact on the environment.
Please don't misread my intent as diversion, it's not, I just don't like lazy generalisations. As you point out, it's the driven shooting that is the issue here and I think it's important that we make that distinction. One is hunting and the other is sport, the two being rather different approaches and set of ethics (and sadly two very different levels of profitability).
My issue wasn't with the term "shooting" (though that's a good point) but rather that all shooting grounds are culpable. I can see sizeable areas on that map with shooting grounds not represented that tell me it is far from endemic, I would be interested to see that map overlayed onto a map of all shooting land, that would be far more informative and build a better picture.
Interesting thread. Having very recently moved from being surrounded by shooting estates (mainly deer stalking but some grouse) I've heard a lot from both sides of the argument and there us no doubt in my mind that the figures produced by both sides can be challenged. I'm no fan of 'field sports' but there would need to be a huge change in management of estates to maintain their viability and relatively small local employment.
Scotroutes - interesting you mentioned an estate owned by Povlsen as a good example. He was not a popular figure when mentioned amongst local estate workers!
Woody - an evidence to support the idea that the conservation sie figures can be challenged?
Squirrelking - the correlation between areas where tagged raptors disappear and grouse moors is incredibly strong. Tagged raptors die in all areas and obviously where populations are higher you do get more deaths. Outside of grouse moors the bodies are recovered usually. On grouse moors the bodies are rarely found. Grouse moors account for almost all unexplained loss of signal from raptors.
Look at population densities of raptors. Angus glens are prime raptor territory but successful breeding pairs are very rare. A few years ago I watched a young pair hunting there. They were killed before they could breed.
Every year young eagles adopt angus glens as their territories but successful breeding almost never happens
Its all out there the evidence. Google it. there is no doubt at all from the distri9bution of the birds and from the tag evidence that raptors are routinely killed all across grouse moors. No doubt at all.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/wildlife-crime-scotland-2018-annual-report/ for example
41 out of 131 tagged birds disappeared in suspicious circumstances on grouse moors.
That link is from the blog but its to the SNH report
Scotroutes – interesting you mentioned an estate owned by Povlsen as a good example. He was not a popular figure when mentioned amongst local estate workers!
Yeah, what he is doing is divisive and going against the old ways. No surprise he has upset a few folk.
Squirrelking – the correlation between areas where tagged raptors disappear and grouse moors is incredibly strong
I think you're misunderstanding my point. I absolutely agree that the disappearances correlate, what I was asking is what % of grouse moors etc. do these disappearances occur on?
ie. say I wanted to claim truancy is prolific in Scottish schools and show a bunch of hotspots on a map of Scotland with no reference to anything else. You wouldn't accept those figures without question so you rightly ask for all the schools to be marked and discover that there are far more schools than hotspots.
I know of no driven grouse moors where there is no correlation. Indeed the opposite is true. The correlation runs both ways in that on any grouse Moor there is an underpopulation of raptors
I absolutely agree that the disappearances correlate, what I was asking is what % of grouse moors etc. do these disappearances occur on?
That shows a misunderstanding of how it works.
The majority of birds dont have a tag. So they just vanish. This isnt helped by the fact some will die through natural causes (although with some species given the level of persecution this may well be a minority).
Those that do dont have constantly reporting tags. If a tag malfunctions generally they should get a hint of it from drops in battery power etc and (aside from the ones oddly chosen for the brood meddling trial) they are reliable. So if one reports one day thats all good but disappears thats a hint the bird has been killed. However a bird can cover a lot of distance during the reporting period. So you cant point at moor x unless the body is found there and even then its not always certain (since there have been cases where it looks rather suspiciously like a bird has gone for a drive).
The flip approach is pick a grouse moor, any one, and see how many harriers and peregrines have survived there.
Or as mentioned above look at who the moorland association has selected as their new chairman. It shows a certain lack of concern about raptor persecution.
That shows a misunderstanding of how it works.
Say something, present a map without all relevant info and conclude that it's absolute proof? I'm not asking for the moon on a stick here, I'm asking for an overlay of evidenced wildlife crime on top of shooting estates. If it's that prolific SOMEONE must have done it.
We have pheasant shoots around here and a good number of buzzards. See plenty of the former in a state of morbidity and never the latter. That doesn't gel with the info given.
I have anecdote to fall back on as well but that's worthless so I won't waste my time.
squirrelking - how about looking at some of the links and or following the data. Its all in there.
You will of course dismiss this I am sure
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/0f04dd3b78e544d9a6175b7435ba0f8c
Oh - and once again I did not say all estates - I said the criminality runs right thru the "sport" and it does. There may be pockets of good practice where they have intensive grouse moors with the expected raptor population but I know of none. If you do lets here it but do not try to pretend in the face of the evidence that this is not the norm on driven grouse moors to kill raptors because the proof is overwhelming
another set of maps showing the correlation
edit - crap link
In addition using Driven Grouse shooting makes it clear where one of the major problems is in terms of persecution and other negative impacts on the environment and separates it out from something like walk up grouse shooting which can be done sustainably and without massive negative impact on the environment.
Walk up shooting at least looks like it’s got more skill to it.
Oh – and once again I did not say all estates – I said the criminality runs right thru the “sport”
And I've already said that is tantamount to meaning one and the same thing.
And never mind, I found one myself, wasn't that hard.
Based on that, yes, it does seem endemic amongst a majority.
You could have saved a lot of hassle if you had just painted a full picture from the start.
Walk up shooting at least looks like it’s got more skill to it.
Yeah.
All those deer 'forests' without a tree in the way and massive overpopulation of any species you can shoot.
He was talking about grouse, not deer. And prolific or not, it still takes skill to land a clean, humane kill, more so when your quarry can clearly see you.
And never mind, I found one myself, wasn’t that hard.
Aside from that isnt an overlay since, for the reasons given, its quite hard to give your required level of detail not leasts because the information on grouse moors is pretty slim.
You could have saved a lot of hassle if you had just painted a full picture from the start.
You mean aside from TJAgain giving you a link to the paper. So about as detailed a picture as you could possibly wish for but which you failed to read.
That map gives a good overview of grouse moors so evidently not that ****ing hard.
I'm done. I asked a ****ing simple question relating to supplying empirical ****ing evidence, nobody could provide anything but ****ing grief then a ten minute sift through dross at the end of my 8th 12 hour shift in 10 ****ing days produced a map that backed the original point up and your still not ****ing happy.
No I didn't read the ****ing papers because unlike most on here I don't have 24h a day to sit on my ****ing arse being obtuse. Excuse me for having a real ****ing job to do and excuse me for not just taking someone's word on an emotive ****ing subject.
Happy ****ing Friday!
indicating that harriers were ten times more likely to die (I and N) or disappear (SNM) in areas dominated by grouse moors
Where would you expect them to die or disappear from?
City centres?
Hi
Ninfan
The evidence is clear. driven grouse moors are where the vast majority of raptor persecution occurs. 41 of131 tagged golden eagles were killed on grouse moors
Populations of raptors are much lower on grouse moors
The evidence is incontrovertible
Squirrelking
Sorry I took it that you were being deliberately obtuse rather than busy
Lost nuance in text again
41 of131 tagged golden eagles were killed on grouse moors
Did you notice that these moors were also, coincidentally, surrounded by sheep farming?
What risk do Golden Eagles pose to grouse shooting?
What risk do golden eagles pose to sheep farmers
Go figure!
Try whacking this through google translate: https://www.sunnhordland.no/debatt/kongeorna-tek-lam-i-fitjar/
My understanding is that about 50% of eagle mortality in Norway is out down to sheep farmers shooting them. I guess the Scandewegians can’t just conveniently point the finger at grouse moors.
Populations of raptors are much lower on grouse moors
Than where?
Hen harriers generally live and breed near grouse moors, it’s inevitable that if they are going to die or go missing, it’s going to happen from there. It’s like saying that French people are statistically more likely to die in France.
