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I think you're all thinking arse about face
In the fifties, a huge proportion of people still went home for lunch - because work was located at, pretty much, the end of the street.
Yes, it massively restricted your career options, made employees virtual serfs etc. But the principles that housing and employment went hand in hand during the planning process were sound. No more offices/factories located on motorway junctions or business parks, no more massive housing estates in the commuter belt.
Flaperon - Member
Completely agree. In addition...- Force bus operators to invest in buses with working heaters and air conditioners to keep them cool in the summer months and dry / warm through the winter.
- Employ drivers with an element of driving skill and customer service (looking at you, TFL)
- Congestion charge for any non-electric vehicle driving into a big town or city. Live in the middle and drive a noxious banger? Bad luck. Sell it, or pay the charge. Happy to provide a free G-Wizz or something though to people with disability.
- Change the public perception that bikes are second class citizens on the road.
- Force big companies turning huge profits to offer the cycle to work scheme, along with lockers / showers / secure storage.
- Make walking easier. Fit pedestrian crossings and don't force people to walk through knee high muddy grass to cross the road. Oh look, London again. Wonder where the money is going?
- Stop giving cars priority at pedestrian crossings.
- Have a sliding scale for road tax, enforced by GPS, that aggressively penalises short journeys for non-disabled users.
- All towns / cities to run 24 hour public transport.
- Force a minimum essential service during strikes.
- Sort pricing out for rail journeys. I can get a return flight from t'north to London for £60 by booking on the day. That'd be £250 to a rail company.Unfortunately, I think the transport industry would arrange for an unfortunate accident involving me and a runaway bus should I ever come to power with the intention of implementing the above.
New investment in buses is not needed. I am a bus mechanic and when I come across a bus with cold/ incorrectly operating heaters I don't repair them as I'm told not to bother as they aren't safety critical, given the time and spare parts I bet I could get every buses heaters working right in our 200 strong fleet. The operator isn't going to get their arses kicked for cold saloon heaters and doesn't want buses of the road because they are struggling to make service as is, because they are a backwards and inefficient.
Distance based taxation for cars is a simple thing to implement. Scrap VED and put more tax on fuel, this then simply increases costs to people who rack up mileage, or undertake short fuel inefficient journeys, which would hopefully make people reconsider their driving habits.
The main issue with this is the ridiculously strong fuel lobby, and peoples willingness to blame others rather than to take responsibility for their actions.
In my opinion this is the fairest way to tax vehicles, the more you use it the more you pay.
I work in the bus industry, used public transport all my life and also cycled and now own a car.
Firstly public transport is ****. Run by different companies each with their own ideas on how to fleece customers and generally be inefficient and waste money. Transport needs to operate as a network, you purchase a ticket for your journey and use the best mix of public transport to get there. Buses should feed into rail links, maybe even forget bus timetables use an app based service to give 'next due' times. Also restructure transport companies, far too many managers and departments mixed in with union members. Also free parking at train stations, why would I get the train when I have to pay some extortionate amount to park my car at the station, nah I just drive where I need to go.
Cycling, not amount of cycle lane will prevent you getting killed, the problem is cyclists are seen as second class road users who's lives you can endanger with no consequence. The problem here is that the police don't care that you were nearly killed on your commute until you actually are. Educating road users that cyclist have every right to use the road and prosecution of bad driving.
As others have said cycle to work, great! Showers and good secure lockers are also required.
Taxing, fining, congestion charging, bashing car users for getting to where they need to go as the alternatives are dog shit is just about the worst idea ever.
Lets not improve other modes of transport, no, lets just make using the car equally expensive and shit
Also free parking at train stations, why would I get the train when I have to pay some extortionate amount to park my car at the station, nah I just drive where I need to go.
Merseyrail have free parking for cars and small vans at all railway stations along with fre secure parking for bikes at a lot of their railway stations, they also have a walrus card, taht allows you to pre pay your daily weekly or yearly bus , train and ferry fares, both off peak and on peak services.
Fine/ban any motorist who cannot drive at the speed limit. Some dozy knobber at the front of a massive queue dawdling along at 40 in a 60.
Tax parents higher for clogging the roads at rush hour as they cannot let their lazy chubber of a snowflake kid walk/ride to school.
The roads would be much better then.
i work at a place with about 4 thousand other people, and there are 4 main towns nearby where a lot of those people live. Obviously there is only one half arsed cycle lane from one of them. i have tried cycling in a few times. i dont enjoy it as the traffic is fairly aggressive - south east syndrome. Also when i get there, only one shower, right at the other end of the building which was shut for a year because of legionaires. oh and the bike sheds are shite too. and everyone moans the carparks are bursting at the seams.
So, to improve my lot, i would compulsory purchase a couple of meters strip of farmers field from my house all the way to work, and turn it into a cx/gravel type of road, just like we have in one of the local parks (maybe with a bit of single track on the dh bits) and make work pay for some of it.
improving cycle lanes is more than possible but there isnt any political will. every time i go to europe, and visit one of the plants there (same employer) i am amazed at how awesome the facilities are for cyclists - HUGE sheds, right next to the door, not million miles across the carpark. and the cycle lanes they have are to die for
Jamie have you tried asking? I work for a big company and we have a green committee where stuff like that is discussed so we have showers and bike storage. It reflects well on the company so it gets done.
I realise that wouldn't help with cycle lanes but one shower for 4000 people is ludicrous!
The easy way to tax motorists fairly, is via fuel, if it cost twice as much, people would really think about downsizing the X5, or making fewer journeys at least.
Buses couldn't cope with a massive increase in passenger numbers, certainly not at rush hour anyway, (im a bus driver)
I assume trains are in the same situation.
Many people incorrectly assume that they couldn't cycle 1-2 miles, but I've seen folk who haven't ridden a bike in decades manage a few miles just fine.
The main problem is cars are actually pretty cheap, while public transport is really not.
ninfan - Member
I think you're all thinking arse about faceIn the fifties, a huge proportion of people still went home for lunch - because work was located at, pretty much, the end of the street.
Yes, it massively restricted your career options, made employees virtual serfs etc. But the principles that housing and employment went hand in hand during the planning process were sound. No more offices/factories located on motorway junctions or business parks, no more massive housing estates in the commuter belt.
Great point. See my previous post as well- how many of these commuters could actually WFH? I suspect many.
Thank goodness I live in Scotland. Integrated public transport that is cheap and efficient with lovely new hybrid busses and doing as I do cycling and using public transport is much much cheaper than using a car, its nicer and its usually quicker.
Everytime I cycle past a traffic jam I smugly laugh at all the lemmings in cars. What a waste of time and money
One example - My aging parents live 55 miles away. To drive there ( I have done it) takes on a good day 1hr 20mins, on a bad day or time of day 2-3hrs cost £12 ish in fuel ( return), same again in all other costs of motoring
Public transport? £1.60 bus to town that leaves every 5 mins from outside my house and takes 15-20 mins to drop me at the station 10 trains an hour some you have to change some not taking around 1/12 hrs cost £14 return..But I can have a coffee and read my paper on the train or enjoy the free wifi. Nice and relaxing
Or I can skip the bus bit and take my bike
why would I drive?
Tj, you do not speak for the whole of Scotland. Lets look at my journey eh?
Wifes folks live in Cumbernauld, we live in Largs. Assuming we have luggage thats £3 to the station by taxi, about £20 for a return for two adults, hourly train. One hour to Glasgow. Ten - 15 minutes transfer from central to Queen Street with daughter in tow and onother 30 odd minutes to Greenfaulds. No bus again so another taxi at around £3. Assuming a round trip on the same day thats £32 and about four hours travelling (not including waiting on trains).
We can make the same journey for about half that in the car, both in cost and time, so why wouldnt we? And thats living in a town WITH a train station. Public transport is shite here, you just happy to be lucky in Edinburgh.
squrrelking - nowt to do with luck. Its about organising my life so I ain't dependent on cars but some folks descriptions of public transport simply don't make sense
BTW - according to traveline cumbernauld to largs takes 2 1/2 hrs and cost 9.90
No-body wants to cycle or walk because it's always raining in the UK.
Invent a weather control system so that it only rains between 1-5am. Make it always sunny between 7-9.30 and from 3-6.
jekkyl - weather doesn't stop low countries cyclists
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not really safe though is it Tj, what about strong wind or where the journey is more than 5 minutes.
This is a perceived problem rather than a real problem but it is something non cyclists say. Cycling rates aren't higher in dry, sunny countries aiui. My own experience of cycle commuting is that you just get on with it. Rain or shine, just wear the right clothes. Good infrastructure and decent facilities at the workplace make a difference though.No-body wants to cycle or walk because it's always raining in the UK.
Its also astonishing how infrequently you get rained on commuting. OK Edinburgh is a relatively dry part of the UK but I commute by bike and I have been rained on less than half a dozen times this year.
Despite working in the centre of Manchester there's no way i can get there using public transport.
Maybe not from your front door, perhaps, but what's your reason for driving right into the middle of the city? Are you genuinely saying that as you drive into work you don't go past a single bus stop, train station, or tram stop?
Manchester has fairly reliable public transport through the night - I used to live there and used it regularly.
Manchester has fairly reliable public transport through the night - I used to live there and used it regularly.
Only if you live south of the city.
The rest? No chance.
Thank goodness I live in [s]Scotland[/s] Edinburgh. Integrated public transport that is cheap and efficient with lovely new hybrid busses and doing as I do cycling and using public transport is much much cheaper than using a car, its nicer and its usually quicker.
FTFY
The main problem is cars are actually pretty cheap, while public transport is really not
Here in Southampton, there has been a bus price war going on for ~18 months between Bluestar; First; Red Bus, which has been great for the local population who use the buses.
The Bluestar 18 covers ~7.5 miles, going through the city centre, which can be used for the bonkers price of £5 per week. It's a handy viable alternative for me during the winter months for my ~4.5 mile commute, but by late February this year, I was chomping at the bit to start commuting by bike again.
Cycling into work saves me ~15mins in the early morning (~0600), while the bus home including waiting for the bus can easily take ~60mins (~1400), during which time I can do an extended ~15 mile ride home with ~980 feet of hill climbing.
Cycle commuting is saving me time, money and getting me fitter. 🙂
Only if you live south of the city.
The rest? No chance.
Good point. 😀
[I]TheotherjonV - your comparisionbetween public transport and car use shows why the huge subsidy on cars from general taxation should be stopped.[/I]
We've been here before, there isn't a huge subsidy on cars from general taxation.
There is infrastructure spend on roads etc, and without it where would your buses/coaches drive?
IMO any increase in costs of using your car will just be that, an increase in costs on folk to travel.
- Stop giving cars priority at pedestrian crossings
I like this one, imagine the chaos if lights turned to red the instant a ped pushed the button, reckon people would soon see the light!
BR - yes we have done this before and yes we have shown there is a huge subsidy from general taxation to car drivers.
Making car drivers pay the full cost would not increase transport costs overall as that same subsidy could be used on public transport
[I]BR - yes we have done this before and yes we have shown there is a huge subsidy from general taxation to car drivers.[/I]
You repeatable saying something isn't 'showing', we're still waiting for the evidence.
Even this pro story gets to zero, since £9bn is charged to 'cars' when in reality without roads you'd have no buses/coachs/taxis etc.
Manchester has fairly reliable public transport through the night - I used to live there and used it regularly
Loads of services cut over the last year or so.
[url= http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/256-bus-flixton-late-night-9380838 ]http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/256-bus-flixton-late-night-9380838[/url]
People will most likely spend more on food and of the better kind * more frequent commutes when cycling to the supermarket as opposed to driving there once a week and loading up...hike in metabolism, hollow legs etc.
Kind of illustrates how out of touch those in the retail sector are with cycling.
These are the same people who grovel before the car drivers whilst ignoring the grandparent getting into the family car with half the meat counter under their jacket. Well 'every little helps' when it comes to subsidising car use.
Though so far there seems to be two different transport problems here.
Those living in cities.
Those living out with the cities and travelling to cities or other outlying areas.
I'd get the pension firms to take a stake in city wide public transport...its a captive 'audience'. Like mortgages, it's a stable income.
I'd also get a roads czar to tackle unwanted/ unnecessary road journeys at the city centre and work outwards to the city limits.
[I]Though so far there seems to be two different transport problems here.
Those living in cities.
Those living out with the cities and travelling to cities or other outlying areas.
[/I]
And a third set, those living rurally and just travelling locally.
In cities easy - public transport / car sharing / bikes / car clubs. Between cities - the same. Your third case BR is much harder to solve. short distances bikes inc ebikes - but only for some not all and only for short distances.
The sorts of change I want to see would take a generation to take effect. remeber in the 70s the dutch and the british had similar levels of cycling
the other thing is as Ninfan alluded to - workplaces near to housing, no out of townshopping centres etc
Gradually removing the subsidy from cars and putting it onto public transport will help a lot and it would also make local shops more viable again. Its not an overnight solution tho. 25 years would seem like a good timescale but then we are in political la la land 'cos no politician can think that far.
Make me dictator and I'll sort it out. 😉
TJ - Scotrail says £12 each (off peak). So £24 plus £12 worth of taxis making £36. I can get 300 odd miles out my car for that and travel in easily half the time (journey by train is 2-2.5 hours). If my daughter decides she's not playing ball its an hour onto the journey.
It must be great to have so much free time to organise your life around shit public transport. Oh wait, we already pointed that out, you don't. Edinburgh is the exception, not the rule.
Wonder why trainline said 9,90?
[quote=tjagain ]Thank goodness I live in Scotland. Integrated public transport that is cheap and efficient with lovely new hybrid busses
I understand you also have a wonderful new tram system which was carefully designed to integrate well with other forms of transport...
🙂
Undo Beechings work to start with and with taxation and incentives force commercial traffic off the road and onto the railways. The country is laced with old lines. Ensure that to do so we have legislation that allows rurl lines to be run to Victorian standards such as fencing and construction. We would lose a few cycle tracks but the greater good would be worth it and the roads would be safer.
Make driving less attractive with speed limits and huge fines for breaking driving laws. Hinder recreational driving. To my mind every motorway should lose a lane each side which become a railway line. Discourage other uses of vehicles. Our shopping habits contribute to the problem. Small village shops and inner city supermarkets please not out of town retail parks. Penalise certain online shopping. I bet most of those vans deliverying are not working at capacity and are never driven economically and thus environmentally. Remove the idea that a car is a right. It won't work however as people are selfish to their own interest . For example, how many of you who cycle commute then put the bike in the car for recreational use? How many drive commercially? How many do all their shopping on line?
Well, because if a points failure I'm late by 40 mins in a train which means i miss my connection, which means a return journey and a car to finish the journey.
This is why people don't take the train, it doesn't work
Agreed but nothing is perfect and a more effective system might work better. Of course you could have been stuck on the M6 for hours with no option to swap.
It has to be about convenience more than cost. For a start, pricing cars out of the game will have the lefties whining and secondly cost won't stop many people. It will just become a business expense.
I would also like to see hotspots closed. Tourist areas would be one place, also major events. Driving to the NEC or where ever is silly.
And my pet hate. Kids should go to their closest school and the closure of schools should be reversed.
I take it that those who suggest just adding costs to fuel are a) city dwellers and b) well paid. I bet you are also those who preach fairness for all. Rural dwellers have no choice but to travel and public transport doesn't exist in many cases or not in a realistic manner in others. Sadly. Of course we could just save the countryside for the retired and those in a keyboard pressing profession.
Matt
By shifting subsidy from cars to public transport major changes will come - but this will be slow - a generation
Local shops become more viable so you don't have to drive to shop. Rural public transport becomes more viable
Ridiculous commutes become less viable so people change their behaviours. Commuter villages will see house prices drop in relation to city housing stopping rural workers from being priced out of living in the area they work in
In fife we have this ridiculous situation where people commute from rural villages into the cities to work but people who work in the rural areas have to live in the big towns and cities as they have been priced out of so end up commuting in the other direction
Facilitation would be a start - out and about i see so many bottlenecks to cycling, walking and mobility scooter use that would take relatively little money to solve and then open up networks. Plus pavement parking 👿 makes walking unpleasant whilst pram pushing, pavement cycling and mobility scooter use becomes impossible.
Can you tell i bought my dad a mobility scooter at the weekend 🙂
bamboo - Member
Offer tax breaks to individuals and companies to encourage working from home. Look at how much easier commuting is during school holidays.
I live in a popular holiday area my commute takes up to 30 minutes longer during school holidays.
[i]By shifting subsidy from cars to public transport major changes will come - but this will be slow - a generation[/I]
TJ, as said previously you continuing to repeat this 'subsidy' idea with absolutely NO evidence at all that car drivers are been subsidised is starting to make you sound like a cracked record - please show us the evidence as I can't find any.
How about banning all privately owned motor vehicles? Business vehicle use could still continue, but everyone would need to figure out how to get to work and utilise their leisure time without their cars.
There'd need to be a pretty stringent enforcement of the rule, and exceptions so that the Equalities Act wasn't breached and probably similar.
You did ask for radical approaches after all!