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being a country and a people does not make one correct nor does it mean we should ignore it
However what if they regard themselves as being correct and that we in the west are corrupt and immoral. If they honestly believe that their children should not be exposed to something then they are quite entitled to protect said children. Look how overly protective people here are when children are concerned.
If athletes and officials were that bothered about the restrictions being placed on them whilst attending these games they could always choose not to go.
What about ?
If athletes and officials were that bothered about the restrictions being placed on them whilst attending these games they could always choose not to [s]go[/s]be gay.
Both obvious trolls but which is best?
Best response would be if the official British kit carried the words "British Pride" on the back in large letters. And the US kit said "American Pride". And so on.
After all why shouldn't the British team be proud? But Putin would know we were all laughing at him and his small minded laws on international tele.
Edit. Never going to happen of course because the national IOCs will be more interested in money than opposing tyranny.
[quote=Junkyard ]
What about ?
If athletes and officials were that bothered about the restrictions being placed on them whilst attending these games they could always choose not to [s]go[/s]be gay.
Don't be stupid. Being gay isn't a choice. 🙄
Going to play games in Russia is.
Given the affectionate term used for russia by its population the could have 'mother[land]s pride'
Would the Russians have been justified in boycotting London 2012 because they consider the bedroom tax immoral and discriminatory? No international games would ever be held if every country had to agree with everything in the host country.
Loddrick - I've always had the same attitudes, regardless of my religion. I don't spend much time around organised religion anymore, mainly because of the continued cover up / denial of paedophilia in the Catholic church. I'm just trying to say I've come across far more homophobia in everyday life than I ever did in church, and I don't think the more vocal homophobes do what they do because it offends their spiritual belief systems. I just think they're thick ****s 😀
Good luck druidh
Being homophobic really boils down to a lack of confidence in ones sexual preferences.
Maybe Putin etc, are trying to sweep the issue under the rug in an attempt to bury their own feelings. If they can keep their heads buried in the sand maybe they wont face an overwhelming temptation to 'stray' into homosexuality.
If the homophobes in power built a culture that would allow them to come out in safety, and with the minimum of fuss maybe then they wouldn't feel so 'torn'.
Putin is the president of Russia. Three-quarters of Russians "believe" that society should oppose homosexuality. Russian president makes comments that we don't agree with....
...so who should change? Whose right? Us or them? Whose views should be imposed on the other?
Fortunately, Athletes of any sexuality will compete. Good luck to them all.
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Definitely not gay.
...so who should change? Whose right? Us or them?
What do you reckon? Pretty sure I know the answer.
Odd thread for gay beastiality inuendo.
Pretty sure I know the answer.
To what?
Wrote a big post then deleted it. Can't be bothered.
Boils down to: yes, religion has a lot to do with the hatred I get.
To what?
To who's right? Moral relativism can do one - persecuting people for their sexuality is wrong, and people need to be made aware of this if they're not already.
Sounds like a 21C version of a missionary idea? We are right, you (all 75% of you) are wrong and must be like us. Get it?
Frankly, I don't think anyone's sexuality or even views on sexuality are anyone else's business.
Still the glory that is the Olympic ideal will over trump anything else anyway. Citius, Altius, Fortius and all that....
Sounds like a 21C version of a missionary idea? We are right, you (all 75% of you) are wrong and must be like us. Get it?
Except that all we're asking now is to leave people alone not persecute them.
I assume you think we should show similar respect for FGM or stoning adulterers to death, or torturing prisoners. After all it's their culture and who are we to tell them what to do?
Frankly, I don't think anyone's sexuality or even views on sexuality are anyone else's business.
Shame the Russian government doesn't then. 😕
Indeed.
Fully grown and mature adults seem more affraid of gay people than children ever do,unless theyre brainwashed from an early age that all single men or women may be a pervert or homo, it still happens in some households possily to cover up the familys own inner feelings.
Lots of gay people want their own children and adopt,and make great parents, some parents get gay children and love them.
I think that,sadly,there's still a lot of truth in this,
and a lot of hypocrisy inside society in general about accepting people's sexuality for what it is.
Being homophobic really boils down to a lack of confidence in ones sexual preferences
that's not true - loads of people are homophobic because of religious reasons, others because they feel it is not 'natural'.
I would say lack of confidence in ones own sexuality is probably one of the least likely reasons.
I was shocked when the BBC reported that he'd said this in the same sentence as paedophilia and then called for solidarity with other nations against terrorism. The man is a Terrorist himself!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25785161
No harm at all in asking them to change the law. I think they should. Equally though I don't like the tone of moral superiority that assumes our moral code is best. As I said, it's their country.
You're a moral relativist and a sap.
First, a moral code that doesn't lead to stupid antigay laws isn't better because it's "ours", it's better because it's smarter.
Second, the antigay laws are sod all to do with Russians' moral code, and everything to do with distracting attention from the huge amounts of money that are being spunked on the Sochi games (with a large chunk being embezzled by him and his cronies) for no good reason, the worsening economic situation, the failure to adequately diversify away from natural resources, the endemic corruption and the huge social inequality that exists.
?? ???????!!
Nonsense. The views of the Russian people on the morality of the subject existed way before the Olympics.
I don't agree with their views, but I also appreciate that the morals of one people may be very different from the morals of another.
If I were Russian and reading this thread I'd be quite offended and upset by he sheer intolerance and racial superiority that is being directed at them by, and this is the ironic bit, people who claim to stand for tolerance and equality. As long, of course, as everyone conforms to their relativistic moral view of the world.
Loddrik: yeah, that's easy for you to say.
Kennyp: great sketch by "goodness gracious me" writers regarding moral relativism. "Your husband wants to chop you to pieces? Ah but that's your *culture*, ok no problem!"
And I guess those people who do FGM, let's not dare say owt about that as we may offend.
Or, as I say: so what? Be offended. If you're wrong, you're wrong.
The moral viewpoints of many different countries, peoples, races, political parties, religions (atheists included) and other groups has varied massively over the ages, as well as geographically. For people here to say that the morality of this country, at this particular time, is absolutely the correct one and that all others are wrong, is an act of outstanding arrogance.
That isn't to say the Russians are correct either, it's to say they are entitled to their views, as are we.
Adam, I used the word "offended" deliberately. My own view is that it's become the most overused word in the language and the default fall back position for anyone wanting to curtail free speech. Hence me using it in a counter intuitive way. Thanks for spotting that, I didn't think anyone would. 🙂
Oh, and moral relativism does also have limits, at least my interpretation of it does. And that would apply in the example you mention, though admittedly that's just a comedy skit.
And finally, as I'm off to bed, by all means argue and debate the Russian stance. Personally I hope they change their views. However don't describe them as barbaric or I'll educated just because they take a different view than we do.
They are a very educated and cultured people. My favourite classical composer was Russian. He was a musical genius. Oh, and he was gay too!!
If I were Russian and reading this thread I'd be quite offended and upset by he sheer intolerance and racial superiority that is being directed at them by, and this is the ironic bit, people who claim to stand for tolerance and equality. As long, of course, as everyone conforms to their relativistic moral view of the world.
I stand for tolerance of all but the intolerant. You could argue tolerance as i watch a country commit genocide for purity reasons, FGM on women, rape and any number of abhorent moral acts that I am happy to call wrong and not tolerate. Your broad point is a good one but it really does depend. Somethings are just wrong
For people here to say that the morality of this country, at this particular time, is absolutely the correct one and that all others are wrong, is an act of outstanding arrogance.
the problem is the russian people are imposing their morality on other people . They are equally as guilty of the charge of arrogance so you are left picking the moral code you prefer and imposing it - I am not sure anyone other than russia is actually imposing anything in the real world either
Tolerance is a great thing but we cannot idly stand by and watch bad deeds be done in the name of tolerance
For the triumph of evil all that is necessary is good people do nothing
I think a lot of what goes on on here is because of how 'absolute' a lot of religious people are - it feels like throwing a wall up to debate. "This is how the world is, full stop" when it doesn't reflect others experience or views.
If it's not written in their holy book, then it either doesn't exist, or it's unacceptable; there's no grey, only black and white.
Of course, despite what's written down being in black and white, there are people who spend entire lives 'interpreting' the words of their holy prophet, or deity, in order to use those words to increase their own power over others; they are, after all, chosen to spread the words of their God, and are, as such, in a much more advantageous position to know exactly what was meant by those words, even if that means killing an unbeliever, who has chosen to interpret those exact same words, but in a different fashion. Shia/Sunni conflict, anyone? Or Catholic/Protestant?
All the same God.
loddrik - Member
What, you don't think Putin is a churchgoer....Seems to be that the most homophobic people are also 'god fearing'.
Putin's a Communist, whatever makes you think he's a church-goer?
Homophobia: The fear that another man will treat you like you treat women.
We could do with giving the kids a break from the "hetero" portrayal of the genders come to think of it. As Spinal Tap said; "There's a fine line between sexist and sexy".
The majority of people in Britain believe the Russian view of the matter to be immoral.
The majority of people in Russia believe the British view of the matter to be immoral.
Who is right? Who is wrong? What should we do? Go to war or agree to disagree and tolerate the views of the other.
the problem is the russian people are imposing their morality on other people
But they aren't. They are only applying their views to their own country and asking visitors to respect their views and their laws.
Kennyp: cultural relativism is crap. Utter crap.
"Oh, those people there! They're doing female genital mutilation, but that's their [i]culture[/i]!" (Or choose anything you like. Christian persecution? Female persecution?)
To quote someone recently:
[i]They are only applying their views to their own country and asking visitors to respect their views and their laws.[/i]
No, I do not respect their view or their laws. Fortunately I won't be going to Russia but fear for those who are gay *in* Russia, where it appears you are happy with whatever happens to them.
What research there is on how/why people are gay would suggest that there are likely to be as many gay people per 1000 in Russia as there are in Brazil, UK or Uganda. Whether they know they are gay/bi or understand they might be etc is part of and indeed due to this 'cultural relativism' if you want to call it that.
Personally I am not happy with the idea that your society's values might mean that you try and live a heterosexual life with a load of unwanted sexual impulses and ideas about "what if..." pushed to the back of your head because it is too risky to explore them properly. Which if you ban 'propaganda' in the Russian way might not mean all that much for already 'out' and settled non-scene gay folk, but will leave loads of young men and women somewhat unhappily exploring fooling around with the wrong gender for them or just having no sex life at all. Never mind that these laws in Russia may just be the thin end of the wedge, and do not exactly discourage homophobia via discrimination at work or worse.
oh fwiw perhaps it is 'cultural relativism' that means i don't really understand Putin with his top off looking all shiny and manly, but if i had a gaydar I reckon Putin would flash up as a potential "doesn't realise he is bi" 😆
I don't know why they have a problem with people being gay, it's not like they have many other options. The myth that there are Russian women is just that, a myth. There are no Russian women, only Russian men without penises. Putin is actually a typical Russian woman.
If you did a list of countries with anti-homosexuality laws ordered by severity, worst at the top where would Russia come? A bloody long way down I'd imagaine.
So why not aim all the angst at the top of the leader board?
Because ripping on fellow crackers can't be construed as racist? If we made jokes about Nigeria we might get banned.
That's my take too. Liberal racism. You couldn't possibly criticise non-white-european looking types. [s]They don't know any better[/s] That would be racist.
Yes, it's a different form of racism - ethnic minorities actually tend to find the "they don't know any better" kind of racism more offensive than genuine criticism. It's actually an insidious low key form of racism, one that believes who you are debating cannot debate with you on your level and that you are simply an imperial westerner talking down to them. It strikes me as being similar to the "noble savage" myth.
5thElefant - MemberIf you did a list of countries with anti-homosexuality laws ordered by severity, worst at the top where would Russia come? A bloody long way down I'd imagaine.
So why not aim all the angst at the top of the leader board?
Assuming you think homophobia is a problem, and that you 5thelephant are not just doing a labrat/zulu/ninfan for cantankerous opposition's sake, then you should consider how many coutries below Russia on your list have pretensions of being a true first world democracy, hosting the most important and recognised international event (well, apart from the summer games 😉 ) and imposing your morals and rather hard-to-enforce-consistently laws on the countries competitors you welcome. Your favourite historians' accounts may vary of course, but there is an acknowledgment in some quarters that the hosts of the 1936 olympics consicously (if rather cycnically in hindsight) toned it down a bit just before and during the games, and everyone muddled through trying not to rock the boat. I just don't think we should make it as easy on the current hosts.
where it appears you are happy with whatever happens to them.
As I've said, I don't agree with the Russian viewpoint or laws. I hope they change them and think that people have every right to try and persuade them to do so. Equally though, if they decide that is the society they want then I will respect their right to choose.
hen you should consider how many coutries below Russia on your list have pretensions of being a true first world democracy
You've got that all wrong, they're a semi-democracy with Putin having pretensions of it being a true dictatorship.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/ivan-krastev/is-china-more-democratic-than-russia
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russians-sick-and-tired-of-phony-democracy/486094.html
Qatar next then?