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Must say I'm a bit disapointed that the OP has taken some legal advice, much more fun to represent yourself in court 😎
Quite exciting waiting for the next announcement tomorrow, my bet is on the letters having been delivered and binned by a third party................
What we may well have discovered is, who here actually works in the industry TP is in dispute with. I don't think he/she/they/it has admitted it in this thread but it looks as if the lady doth protest too much...
It’s quite likely the court never sent you any original notice of the case - they only do this (for an extra fee) if the pursuer requests it. A firm pursuing lots of parking cases is likely to serve the docs themselves rather than pay the court to do it.
Say what?! So what's stopping the ppc just saying they sent the letter but not posting it? They'd win by default every time?
the simple procedure rules for Scotland are all online. Intentionally lying on the form is likely to be contempt/perjury and have significant consequences if caught! There are rules on who can declare service was completed - typically a solicitor who has a duty not to mislead the court beyond that of an ordinary claimant. Knowingly not properly serving documents and implying to the court they were served would be career ending if you were found out, even without the perjury/contempt.
I can think of about half a dozen possibilities that don’t require wilful deceit. It might be slightly clearer after you talk to the Sheriff Clerk tomorrow.
ah, you may be surprised at the inefficiencies of our courts and our lawyers then! It could well be typed or at least copy and pasted - where missing the first digit of an address is quite easy. However simple address errors of multiple docs would often be spotted as the incorrect recipient is likely to send back a letter that says on the outside that it contains court documents.
Assuming an incorrect recipient actually exists, of course.
My door number is hyphenated. Cockups are more common than you might imagine, despite most processing these days seemingly being digital. Sometimes the dash gets lost (not a number, I guess), so "7-9" becomes 7 9 or 79. I've also read it out as "seven to nine" and had it corrupted to 729. That one lead to an amusing conversation with a delivery driver; the last house number on the street is in the 30s or 40s and then it gets a bit rural, he was halfway to the next county going "where are all these bloody houses?!"
(example here may not be my actual door number)
my bet is on the letters having been delivered and binned by a third party...
It is objectively plausible, likely even, that the partner in question was intercepting the mail and binning letters before tpbiker saw them. Now I'm not for a second suggesting that this is what's happened here, but if a bunch of cyclists are considering it then the PPC's lawyer surely will.
Ok..we have an update. It's not a great one but since you've all been on tender hooks to find out
Below are the simple steps in the process.
1 - PPC sends a simple procedure doc. I can either contest or ignore.
2- if i contest it goes to court, I get an invite. If not then I don't get a court invite, rather court automatically rules against me and I have 30 days to pay
3-after 30 days I get a ccj on my file
But here is the kicker....the court have a recorded delivery to my address for the simple procedure doc in point 1. its clearly not my signature, nothing like it. (Not even close when I do it on one of those machines the postie uses). I was not even in at the time.
But...my girlfriend also lives in the house. She swears blind she can't remember signing for a letter, it looks nothing like her signature, but she admits 'well I sometimes just put a squiggle in the box'
So basically, I'm pretty sure she signed fir something addressed to me, then binned it. I'm absolutely xxxxing furious with her. If you've read another post by me about her disorganisation this may not come as a surprise. But quite frankly I'm done with this behaviour. I can't live with someone like this
I can still appeal, based on fact I coukd claim I wasn't engaged even if they have confirmation of receipt, likewise there is still no sign of the outcome letter and ways to pay (which again comes from the ppc) but I imagine they've probably got another squiggled receipt in their files from another binned letter. Either way at this point I have zero to lose by appealing, court told me it was free to do, but my case is damaged
But tbh right now I'm more worried about what to do about my other half than a ccj because I'm absolutely fed up with this crap.
As a point of note..I noticed the parking co made zero mention of the fact I'd explicitly told then I wasn't driving on the form (which also went to the court). Obviously they didn't need to legally disclose it, much the same as I didn't need to legally disclose who was driving. Luckily fir them however the admin on their side is alot better than on mine..
Ahhh bugger. Some up there ^ speculated as such. Suppose the basis for the appeal is you didn't sign for it or know anything about the proceedings but you carry the can for the errrm, 'admin' snafu. Assuming no/low cost, is there anything to lose in appealing? Sounds like SWMBO will also be looking for someone else's post to torpedo...
If you've read another post by me about her disorganisation this may not come as a surprise. But quite frankly I'm done with this behaviour. I can't live with someone like this
The standard STW response is a new patio - but I guess you can't get a loan for one now. 😬
I just spoke to the companies solicitor. They sent a letter to my address on 25th Nov with the outcome, but this time it wasn't recorded.
Given I receive all other expected post, I'm now second guessing what's going on. Did that one genuinely not arrive, or is someone opening mail addressed to me and binning it when they don't like the contents. None of my other post is opened though, so maybe paranoia is setting in.
Hmmmmm...
Sorry to hear that tpbiker.
That’s horrible. Good luck with whatever this uncovers personally.
Gives me no real satisfaction that my speculation turns out to have been right, when the outcome is as shit as it is. TPbiker, despite my thoughts about the 'morals' of loopholing out of a legit parking ticket, the situation you are now in wrt both the ccj and your relationship has my sympathy, neither are easy to fix.
Hopefully you get one of those human Sheriffs that's able to apply some sense rather than just letter of the law, and can find a way to backtrack to where you pay the fine and have the ccj removed.
I think a few need now to wind their necks back in and leave TPbiker to sort stuff out.
And lesson to all - first find the ****ing facts, before starting the name calling
Oh, this is pants. I'm guessing there isn't much you can do with the CCJ now there is evidence of a delivered (but disposed of) letter ?
I just spoke to the companies solicitor. They sent a letter to my address on 25th Nov with the outcome, but this time it wasn't recorded.
Given I receive all other expected post, I'm now second guessing what's going on. Did that one genuinely not arrive, or is someone opening mail addressed to me and binning it when they don't like the contents. None of my other post is opened though, so maybe paranoia is setting in.
Hmmmmm...
Documents which require to be served have a stamp or label on the outside stating that it contains a court document - its hard to miss and certainly not going to be mistaken for junk mail. The outcome may still be in a similar envelope - we sometimes get 'earnings arrestment' notices for chaotic employees and they stand out a mile away, so if you were trying to intercept them, it would be obvious. Why you would do it is a different question.
Sorry to hear about this. I remember your other thread now. It really can't be easy so I hope everything works out in the end.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the sentiments. My op last week was born out of frustration as I've been having a shitty past few weeks (my dog died) so if my responses were curt then I apologise
Oh, this is pants. I'm guessing there isn't much you can do with the CCJ now there is evidence of a delivered (but disposed of) letter ?
I can still technically appeal according to the lady at the court. I can still argue i never got the chance to engage and im not liable. It will all depend if the sherrif believes i didnt see it rather than ignored it. Either way it is in no way helpful. The nice lady at the court gave me the forms.
Tbh right now I'm almost past caring about the ccj. More concerned about my relationship. This isn't about one letter, it's a clear trend of irresponsible behaviour
The standard STW response is a new patio - but I guess you can't get a loan for one now
You are correct unless I crowd fund a cement mixer.
I can't even go with the frozen sausages, as whilst I can afford them, it's my own front lawn they'd be going in.
What i will categorically say ..She'll not be getting any pudding though...ever..
But...my girlfriend also lives in the house. She swears blind she can't remember signing for a letter, it looks nothing like her signature, but she admits 'well I sometimes just put a squiggle in the box'
As someone who has a commercial mobile app being used in anger I can confirm that 99.5% of the time a digital signature bears very little resemblance to a paper signature.
(a cool app would record the geolocation when the signature was done .... just sayin 😉 )
As a point of note..I noticed the parking co made zero mention of the fact I'd explicitly told then I wasn't driving on the form
I think the form you completed was to dispute the issue of the parking ticket, but you simply said you weren't driving which does not invalidate the issuing of the ticket and so was not relevant.
Unfortunately, as with most things, the truth is normally a lot simpler than you may think. Hope you get your issues sorted and sorry for the loss of your dog ☹
All I can say at this point is fair play to you coming back here and posting what you have, if your integrity was questioned in previous posts I think we can put that to bed, took some strength of character to face up to what appears to have happened and post about it here. Good luck sorting the relationship out, you seem to know what needs to be done.
I think the form you completed was to dispute the issue of the parking ticket, but you simply said you weren't driving which does not invalidate the issuing of the ticket and so was not relevant.
Whilst not particularly relevant anymore, I think the last sentence of their justification for action is a bit misleading.. .
'despite repeated requests for payment, the respondent refuses or delays. This action is accordingly necessary,'
No mention of fact I'd stated categorically I wasn't actually driving! I'm not going to debate the 'despite repeated requests' bit mind you given i no longer have any confidence in what was or was not delivered
I'm waiting to hear back from my solicitor. At this point I'm definitely going to appeal, as there is no reason not to. If However there is anyway I could say to the company 'get the order overturned and I'll pay today, otherwise I'll appeal and you take your chances with the judge' I'd do that
Clutching at straws there mind you as I can't see a process for that to happen, but ultimately as someone pointed out, they want my money, they don't care about my ccj.
No mention of fact I'd stated categorically I wasn't actually driving!
But that fact is irrelevant to the actual issuing of the ticket.
But that fact is irrelevant to the actual issuing of the ticket.
All that is covered comprehensively in the first 3 paragraphs. I just think the last statement is misleading. But not unexpected. They aren't going to cite my defense for me after all. I take your point though.
That said, i doubt the sherrif even reads this form if it's unopposed, so it's probably completely irrelevant what's on it!
The issue isn't whats on the form, it the fact i didnt oppose it.
Going to be a very uncomfortable evening in my house tonight. The costs of this fine pales into insignificance compared to what I'll probably end up having to shell out to remove my girlfriend. As immoral as I may be fir not paying a parking ticket, I'm not going to kick her out without ensuring she has somewhere to live. Somewhere I suspect I'll be paying the deposit for given her current financial situation
@tpbiker I’m really sorry to hear this outcome. Hope you can sort things out.
Going to be a very uncomfortable evening in my house tonight. The costs of this fine pales into insignificance compared to what I'll probably end up having to shell out to remove my girlfriend. As immoral as I may be fir not paying a parking ticket, I'm not going to kick her out without ensuring she has somewhere to live. Somewhere I suspect I'll be paying the deposit for given her current financial situation
I hope you are joking. Or would you really throw out a girlfriend over a parking fine? It a minor matter. Stop fussing, pay the fee, tell her she should have told you sooner, then forget it.
its more than that, read the linked thread
It sounds like this all is an indication of a wider malais/the straw that broke the camels back etc - just reading between the lines.
It sounds like this all is an indication of a wider malais/the straw that broke the camels back etc - just reading between the lines.
I hope you are joking. Or would you really throw out a girlfriend over a parking fine? It a minor matter. Stop fussing, pay the fee, tell her she should have told you sooner, then forget it.
As has been indicated, I suspect it's far more than that. I'm not going to be rash, but this feels like the final straw.
Either way, nothing will be said tonight. My dogs ashes were just returned so this is not the right time
This always was a spikey thread, the outcome is pretty grim all round.
Hopefully the OP can get things can get things sorted the right way.
If I'm reading this right, TP, your Mrs incurred a ticket, ignored it and ****ed you over? Now you've got a CCJ?
That's pretty ****ed up. Get rid of her, pay the bill and move on.
If I'm reading this right, TP, your Mrs incurred a ticket, ignored it and ****ed you over? Now you've got a CCJ?
Not quite...
She didn't ignore it. I appealed it as it was sent to me not her. She then signed for, but didn't pass on a subsequent letter from the company that meant I ended up with a court order (scottish ccj equivalent)
Ultimately though, this sorry tale appears to be less about me not paying originally, nor my gf not passing on 1 letter, but a chain of things leading to this point.
I'm waiting to hear back from my solicitor. At this point I'm definitely going to appeal, as there is no reason not to. If However there is anyway I could say to the company 'get the order overturned and I'll pay today, otherwise I'll appeal and you take your chances with the judge' I'd do that
How good a friend is he? does he deal with litigious stuff in court regularly? It’s not impossible for him to call up the other party’s solicitor and explain the situation with the g/f and negotiate the sort of solution you are proposing. If he doesn’t normally do contentious work or he’s going to Want an hourly rate then it might not be a good start, although someone sending out parking ticket claims will be very junior and they may neither have the authority to agree anything or their boss may think sending them into the lions den with a sheriff and a litigant in person is good training which doesn’t cost them anything if they lose! But for the sake of your lawyer making a phone call.
How good a friend is he?
Honestly, not an especially good mate, just a girl I've known for years
But is there actually a process for that? Ie even if they wanted to, surely the sheriff had already made judgement so 2 lawyers can't hash out a deal to overturn that can they?
The recall process is pretty much explicitly for folks that don't turn up to defend themselves, for whatever reason. I'm not sure how much the other companies solicitor would be able to influence that either way. I can ask however.
Ultimately I suspect it'll be down to the sheriff and whether he thinks I just ignored the letter or not. Or if he's feeling in a generous mood on that specific day
It’s not impossible for him to call up the other party’s solicitor and explain the situation with the g/f and negotiate the sort of solution you are proposing.
Be sure to tell your lawyer that you’re getting advice from randoms on a mountain bike forum on the best way to for her to proceed with the matter, I’m sure she’ll love that.
"It wasn't me driving so in scotland im not liable, it was my girlfriend."
So liability is clear.
One of you is gonna have to pay.
So why all this posturing? pay it and move on. Or tap your girlfriend up, or sue her for fraud, I don't care.
This just seems like a massive waste of time and effort.
Fact of the matter is you and your girlfriend are both complicit/culpable, and running around in legal circles is just going to cost you more money and effort in the long run, as evidenced by the CCJ you now have, lol.
'cutting losses' and 'quitting whilst you are ahead' I feel are phrases you don't really grasp.
So why all this posturing? pay it and move on. Or tap your girlfriend up, or sue her for fraud, I don't care.
This just seems like a massive waste of time and effort.
I think this thread has moved on somewhat from 'just pay up and move on' . That ship sailed. The first time when I challenged the ticket, the 2nd when I never received the verdict so couldnt pay it within 30 days.
The money is irrelevant. The ccj is an inconvenience and something i definitely want rid of. My relationship matters far more than either of those however.
'cutting losses' and 'quitting whilst you are ahead' I feel are phrases you don't really grasp.
I'm not sure of you've fully followed this thread but I'm in no way 'ahead here' unfortunately. In any way whatsoever.
Just to be re emphasise though, I am at the stage now where 'cutting losses' achieves nothing. I have absolutely nothing to gain by paying up now vs appealing the decision.
Fact of the matter is you and your girlfriend are both complicit/culpable, and running around in legal circles is just going to cost you more money and effort in the long run, as evidenced by the CCJ you now have, lol.
'cutting losses' and 'quitting whilst you are ahead' I feel are phrases you don't really grasp.
The 'should have paid' faction (myself included) have had their say. All moot now and OP has more important things to worry about. Lets leave the pile on there.
Good luck OP, hope it all works out in the end.
Fact of the matter is you and your girlfriend are both complicit/culpable, and running around in legal circles is just going to cost you more money and effort in the long run, as evidenced by the CCJ you now have, lol.
'cutting losses' and 'quitting whilst you are ahead' I feel are phrases you don't really grasp.
The 'should have paid' faction (myself included) have had their say. All moot now and OP has more important things to worry about. Lets leave the pile on there.
Good luck OP, hope it all works out in the end.
I must have missed that bit in all the comments.. My apologies.
I'm not judging.. I'm the first person to wriggle out of a speculative invoice given half a chance.
Apologies again if I skimmed past a pertinent development.
It seems wild to me that for all the correspondence you may or may not have received and processes you may or may not have followed, ultimately this is about an offence which you did not commit. The CCJ is for non-payment of a fine you weren't liable for. People have been banged up for murder and released decades later when their innocence has been subsequently proven.
Anyway. It sounds like you've had a shit run of things, I think I'm most upset about the loss of your dog. Keep buggering on, mate.
Oh, for what it's worth,
But...my girlfriend also lives in the house. She swears blind she can't remember signing for a letter, it looks nothing like her signature, but she admits 'well I sometimes just put a squiggle in the box'
I do this sometimes. I'm reasonably confident that I'd recognise my own handwriting sufficiently to go "I didn't write that" even it was just a nonsense squiggle.
even it was just a nonsense squiggle.
Tbf I don't think it matters 'in law' who signs for it, could have been a burglar for all the difference it would make! And tbh, I can't argue the 'law is the law' when it comes to not paying originally, then question the fairness of a different law when it bites me on the ass!
, I think I'm most upset about the loss of your dog.
Thanks cougar. You and me both. He arrived back home yesterday which was quite emotional.
I've been having a shitty past few weeks (my dog died) so if my responses were curt then I apologise
And some of us (me!) were pretty unpleasant in response which by the sounds of it you didn't need. Sorry about that.
Sounds like you've had a tough run. I hope you can resolve your relationship concerns and keep everything in perspective.
Good luck in your self representation quest. I suspect we won't hear about the result.
Well I promised I'd be back with an update..
Self represented myself, Sheriff threw out the old judgement. If the parking firm wants to persue me they will need to appear at a follow up call in 4 weeks to prove I was the driver. Good luck with them being able to do that.
So no ccj against me anymore, no money owed.
Good for you fella. Glad it's worked out and sticking to your guns has paid off. I still smile over the 'moral indignation' comments up there^ - about... parking companies...! 🤣