UPDATE: Reviews section refreshed, redesigned, searchable: Go take a look
Probably a random question! Does anyone have experience of attending a Prince2 course in person?
Reason being MrsRNP is wanting to do the course but she is dyslexic and the online providers I googled seem a bit dubious hosting basic presentations with little knowledge of the material.
Any info gratefully received!
Yes. What does she want to know?
i did it recently-ish (last year), but mine was all online.
It was far more intense/harder than i expected.
i would highly recommend buying the book before hand. I ended up reading it front to back and i still only scraped a pass (might say more about me though!).
Yes. What does she want to know?
did you do it in person? whereabouts? How did you find the course/presenting company? Would you recommend them?
We are funding this ourselves with my hard earned money hence the due diligence that I wouldn’t be normally bothered about if my employer was funding the training.
I had a dyslexic and slightly autistic staff member take the course. She found it pretty intense and exhausting, found the language OK but has good ways of working with grammarly etc.
What I would say is we are moving on from Prince2 as I am not convinced of the return on investment it has brought to the organisation or project leaders in their role. We are looking at alternative, but finding a course that treads the 'project lead and middle manager' line with a healthy does of 'real world' is proving almost impossible...
I did the APMP version in person, a few people on the course had done Prince2 previously, they're very similar just with different names for certain things. Prince2 was developed by the civil service (and is apparently popular in IT) , so which course you pick might depend on what industry you work in. Some of this may be useful, some might not be applicable.
The course was good, ~24 hours of teaching, a day of Q&A, discussion and exam prep and then the exam on Friday morning.
The exam was hard work, the content was easy enough if you're logical and can understand the processes, I know a few struggled because they learnt by just memorizing the facts and flowcharts. I learn by understand the how of why things work so find that sort of exam easier, I just start writing and my brain fills in the facts as I go. It was a LOT of writing though, I had a blister on my finger after 2 hours! There's basically no thinking time, just enough to bulletpoint plan your answer, and then write the essay. I didn't stop writing the entire time and still only scored 80something%.
It's usefulness afterwards; depends where you work. I worked in a huge engineering contractor, we basically already had our own in house systems which were probably even more rigorous and detailed than Prince2 or APMP. I think the biggest beneficiaries would be people in SME's or growing companies that need to implement some sort of project management system from scratch. Or for onboarding in companies that already strictly follow those systems. If you don't already work within those systems you'd be just as well off reading a couple of books and the companies project procedures.
I did a few in the 90s, so have nothing up to date to contribute… except that I’m surprised it’s still in use! My experience was that it was a tick boxing exercise for the employer, who then expected you to just get on with things the way they’re always done there anyway.
I did it at least 15 years ago so might have changed. It was a five day in person course with an exam after two days which was easy and provided a basic qualification. The fifth day was mainly exam I think and used the sizable folder of course content and notes from the week. I think there was evening work to keep your brain in the PRINCE2 mode.
Edit: Remarc group were the providers and I have the folder on my lap.
Day 1: Introduction content mainly plus start up project, roles, quality.
Day 2: Config mgt, change control, risk, documentation.
3: controls, stage boundaries and other stuff then afternoon exam for foundation qualification.
4: Practitioner exam prep plus tutor led practice exam.
5: More exam prep then break then Practitioner exam.
Is she already a Project Manager?
I did the APM course about 20 years ago. The final exam was very tough, never stopped writing for the 3 hours. I managed a pass. I've heard it's not as tough now. However, the tools and techniques I learnt were very useful for the rest of my career, which was in "projects" but in a very off the cuff, ad-hoc style.
I followed it up with Prince2. Absolutely useless for me, as others have said, it's a bit of a tickbox.
Trying not to be too cynical here, did some kind of Prince 2 awareness for managers type thing over a couple of days probably 20 odd years ago. Learnt that project managers are a very very different breed to me and found it deathly boring, but that's more about me than the content I guess.
Had some sort of test at the end but it wasn't the proper qualification. It's very processy indeed but was helpful for me in that job for some of the language and thinking (critical paths etc) and structures (sponsor/pm/board). I carried on using some of it (ah - "tools and techniques" as per above post) but I'd be reluctant to spend my hard earned without seeing where the RoI comes from.
did you do it in person?
Yes
whereabouts?
Manchester
How did you find the course/presenting company?
Pretty good
Would you recommend them?
Yes, Insofar as I would recommend any PRINCE2 course, which is not at all
Tbh I'm gobsmacked you're thinking of spending your hard earned on this. I'm surprised tbh that they even still run courses in it I assumed it had died a death.
What industry?
If you are self funding I'd want to be sure that it's used in either what she is going to/is doing. It's a pretty old school approach to Project management that may still be in use in formal environments.
Can't comment on courses other than to say providers vary and reading the manual beforehand (or whatever form of learning works best for her) so she goes in know a fair amount of the context/content would likely help.
For reference, studied it as a methodology at uni 25ish years ago, have never once used it more than partially having spent my time working in e-commerce, medical tech and bio tech in a software capacity ever since.
Just had a look on office shelves and I still have the textbook from the course from 2005. I don't think I've opened it since!
It's the official OGC one.
You can have it for the cost of the postage if you like?
Yes. What does she want to know?
did you do it in person? whereabouts? How did you find the course/presenting company? Would you recommend them?
We are funding this ourselves with my hard earned money hence the due diligence that I wouldn’t be normally bothered about if my employer was funding the training.
Yes, in person. I'll have to check back to find out who the Training Co was - 2006 according to the cert!
Is she a Project Manager now? I.e. does she do it for a living as a 'proper' job? Not meaning to be rude but a lot of people go for the quals (this and PMP or whatever it's called now) for their CV.
I was a PM first and foremost and got P2 and PMP as it was expected of me working in a Consultancy environment.
If she's not doing it now, she'll have to learn all the P2 process gobbledygook and project management logic. They spend a lot of time teaching you the P2 process which is what you're examined on on the last day of 5. It's open book (or was) but you have to plop your theoretical project into the P2 method and show working/the steps all the way through. That'll be tough if she's winging managing projects as well (I'd have thought).
I'm not current having been idle since 2020 but make sure P2 is still the flavour of the month. A lot went over to Agile as it keeps 'Management' happier by showing theoretical progress instead of 'wasting time' doing the who/what/why/when stuff up front... <dives for cover>
Happy to answer any questions she has 1:1 if you/she prefers 👍
I can't imagine any PM course that concludes in an exam where it's required to write essays for 2-3 hours is going to have any practical use - other than earning a certificate.
I can't imagine any PM course that concludes in an exam where it's required to write essays for 2-3 hours is going to have any practical use - other than earning a certificate.
That's what I was driving at. If they're trying to teach you to be a PM, forget it. It's a formal methodology that 'some' places pretend to use and sift their suppliers (partners - gah!) via it. I say 'pretend' as most abandon it as soon as the smelly stuff hits the fan and they start running around with their hair on fire...
You'd also question, when it was (is?) primarily used in Govt and psuedo Govt, why are their projects and programmes ALWAYS massively overspent and late if it's so effective? Simplistic question I know but...
It was flavour of the month when I did it in central government especially as I was working in project support. It wasn't a career I wanted to pursue as it just wasn't me. I'd suggest trying to manage or shadow someone who does this for a living. As others suggest there are other methodologies and P2 I think should only be dipped into where it suits rather than rigidly followed. There are probably free online project mgt courses available.
At best certifications like these will provide common ground for project participants to choose whether to ignore most or all of the requirements from these models.
Prince2 now only last for 3 years (version 7 onwards, previous versions lasted your lifetime). I am not sure what the recertification is like, but if its another weeks course, plus an exam, the juice might not be worth the squeeze.
The P2 exam was multiple choice, but all the answers couldve been correct. There were really small nuances or wordings which made the answer right or wrong.
I work in composites as a PM, in a small to medium sized company, and whilst some of the theory of P2 helps in certain situations, most of it doesnt, as it feels geared towards huge companies and projects.
You can have it for the cost of the postage if you like?
You can have mine and I'll pay the postage
If you are self funding I'd…
…not bother. In fact, unless an employer is paying for you to attend… do anything else instead.
Thanks for the replies. Our / MrsRNP thought process is that she has done a lot of project management in a variety of roles/employment/industries and has always overdelivered. She isn’t formally qualified in the role (her degree is completely unrelated).
Her latest project had an opening ceremony on completion with movers and shakers of the industry that I attended so got to see my Mrs at work.
As the project was finished and she seeks new challenges she left the business and has been looking for a new job - however the job market seems to have shifted and employment isn’t as forthcoming as previously.
I mentioned starting up her own ‘project management consultancy’ which then lead to her thinking that Prince2 qualifications would help get established.
This is not going to be very helpful. I did PRINCE 2 and an APM qualification on an intense course in the mid 2000s as resettlement training when leaving the army. It was my choice, I could have spent my resettlement allowance on any accredited training course (I knew someone who did a PADI diving instructor course). At the time I wasn't sure what I was going to do after leaving, so just felt I should do something potentially useful, rather than a jolly.
I found it tough and borderline incomprehensible but somehow passed, I hated it though. It only served to let me know a career in project management was not for me. My failing, no slight on those who enjoy it. At the same resettlement centre, a bunch of fellas where having a great time on a home renovation and DIY course, consisting of taster sessions on bricklaying, plumbing, plastering, etc. I still regret not choosing that course, which would have come in useful so many times since!
I went on to work in the Civil Service, though not in PM. It's possible I suppose, that the qualification was vaguely useful in padding out a very thin CV!
Like lots of others on the thread, I did mine and MSP and MOR 20 years ago. 3 weeks spent in stuffy hotels in Edinburgh, Bracknell and Birmingham. I somehow managed to scrape passes at Practitioner in all of them.
I know mainly work as a Product Manager in agile environments, many of the principles P2 and the rest teach you are still sound - configuration management, writing down what you want to build etc., even in the most ****y full on agile organisations.
But, if I was looking from a personal development perspective now, I'd be considering more agile or hybrid qualifications/courses, maybe starting with an introduction to Agile Project Management or something similiar.
Of course this assumed that Mrs RNP works in areas where agile approaches are embraced or at least tolerated.
mentioned starting up her own ‘project management consultancy’ which then lead to her thinking that Prince2 qualifications would help get established.
So if I was interviewing for a PM ( which I have done numerous times) I'd be exceedingly sceptical about any candidate who mentioned PRINCE2 qualification in the top half dozen reasons I should give them the job. Fair enough, chuck it on the 2nd page of the CV, but it's real world relevance is miniscule IMHO
For example, if anyone answered any of the following questions:
- Tell me what makes you the best candidate for this job
- What relevant experience do you have for the role.
- Tell me about a time on a project when....
- What are the first five things you instantly want yo know about the next project you are given to manage
- Show me you have the ability to...
With " I've got my PRINCe2 Practitioner ticket", they'd be straight on the No pile
That's all true but it's a bit like having a degree in boat building when the quals requirement says 'must be degree level educated'. If you're an experienced whatever and to enter a specific market need specific credentials, this may (would when I were a lad) stand you in stead. It's not going to turn a donkey into a race horse but might open the door in specific circumstances or maybe differentiate in others.
For me the whole quals thing is a bit like PADI. An entire industry created to 'demonstrate capability' whilst everyone makes a nice living off it...
I spent about eight years working for a large IT consultancy from 1999 who used an adopted version of Prince2. The PMs were largely ignorant of what networking projects (my speciality) involve so I ended up writing all the product descriptions which nobody else read in detail.
These projects typically involved less than six people but were run as if we were delivering HS2. The PMs travelled in packs and always had someone in a meeting acting as a "scribe" to take notes.
It just seemed to quadruple the costs of delivering projects and I cannot recall ever being challenged in the approach I took or having my work independently verified.
I do think project management is a good thing but now prefer to use lightweight tools like Asana where all tasks etc. can be seen on a portal and things can be raised and dealt with far more quickly than an old fashioned methodology.
Obviously AI is having a big impact on PM - having a bot that joins meetings and can draft a pretty decent summary and list of actions means that much of the PM's drudge work has disappeared.
If I wanted to work in the PM field nowadays I would be looking at how I can leverage AI and be able to demonstrate that at interviews. Also "Green PM" is worth looking at where you can deliver details of the sustainability benefits that a need project can deliver. Many companies are looking for this type of info although it has become less of a focus in the Trump era.
Did mine in the early 00’s just before the exam went to multiple choice. I was in retail banking at the time and about to move to specialist insurance- at the time it was (along with MSP & MoR) the tick box on your CV to say “this guy does projects good” but the very harsh reality was that outside of the civil service, the real world doesn’t work like that.
for a while APM and Scrum was flavour of our times (for them too)
more recently it’s SAFe6 - got that one too
Nobody has ever said at interview “have you got prince2 - oh splendid that’s good news” and I doubt the AI filters have that as a criteria either.
so was it worth it for me? Yeah sure, 20’years ago
would I recommend it now? No way
just have a good honest CV showcasing what you did, what you learned and what your style is.
I think the world has moved on from Prince2
If I wanted to demonstrate independent certification of my PM capabilities I'd be looking at chartership e.g. ChPP from APM.
Most places looking for a consultant PM are going to really only care about experience. You might get the odd role that wants PRINCE2 if they strictly adhere to the methodology, but I see more and more moving towards AgilePM or other competitors.
The world may have moved on but when I did mine many years ago it was just a tick box thing. As far as I ever worked out it was applied common sense stuffed into a framework with each stage given fancy titles
As far as I ever worked out it was applied common sense stuffed into a framework with each stage given fancy titles
Not easy when common sense is not easy to find nowadays. I wonder if that has something to do with AI?
