The Metaliica cover of SFW lyrics come to mind
[url= http://www.lyricsfreak.com/m/metallica/so+what_20092017.html ]Here but not work safe[/url]
I haven't read all of this.
****stan means "Land of (the) Pure" in Urdu and Farsi.
Tajikistan means the "Land of the Tajiks" in Persian.
The name Afgh?nist?n translates to the "Land of Afghans".
Guess what "Uzbekistan" means.
The inhabitants of "****stan" are, in some sense, "****", and when they so describe themselves it appears to be by way of congratulating themselves on being such a great country having shoved out all the hindus. I'm not suggesting that going around calling people "****" should be encouraged, but the etymology is reasonable enough.
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[i]etymology[/i] you cant go around using words like that in this day and age
Having watched the video, and read the article, it's a complete non-story as far as I'm concerned. The army, as skid-mark has pointed out does have elements that can be perceived as racist, but equally, that's part of the bonding element within it - you bond with the people you're working with there, as they're the ones that'll have your back in a firefight. I'm personally not in the army, so I don't know how this evolved, how endemic it is, or the tone / intent in which it's generally used. And yes, the army is an old school establishment, and the vast majority of any operations overseas, with a live and active enemy will encourage the use of derogatory terminology to describe those "enemies". And that will be blanket terminology.
It's 3 year-old footage, the family of the guy who's referred to have openly said it's was never mentioned, and equally, others from that family have been in the british forces. None of this has been raised until this video arrives.
Whilst I can accept that this term may be considered offensive, and it's not one I personally use for that very reason, I do very much object to the removal of words etc from use because some people take offence, and that is a far bigger issue. As has been said clearly, it's the intent that's the problem, not the word. In this instance, I don't believe that there was any real intention to offend, it's more a combination of naivity from Harry and malice from the video poster.
But equally, that's part of the evolution of language. Words that are in common use can have different meanings over time, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. Look at the evolution of the word "gay" - it's been rapid over the last 30 years or so, and different groups of people use it with different connotations.
What I also object to is the reactionary stance of all the racial equality groups etc, calling for heads to role, claiming total moral outrage and the like, as they may have an element of a point, but are solutions being offered? At the present time, with the economic climate as it is, job security at a pretty low level, and a perceived loss of immigration control equally promoted by the media (the same media that's suddenly bashing harry over this) I have a fear that we will see increasing racial conflict over the next couple of years. That's a pretty scary thought, but one that can only be avoided by understanding and tolerance from all sides. That's what I fear we're losing, and this story just adds fuel to both sides.
That's my opinion, whether you agree with it or not is another thing altogether.
The excuses, I find more distasteful.He said he regarded "**** as an abbreviation" and the prince, in his mind, had "not crossed the line".
If I needed to refer to a ****stani I knew I'd abbreivate to **** too. Same for ausies, yanks, wops, paddies, taffs, jocks and brits. I wouldn't use the abbreviation to someone I didn't know but someone I knew, sure.
Why's it rascist?
Who cares? Inbred toff shown to hold childish racist views
😆 oh the irony.
"Look at the evolution of the word "gay" - it's been rapid over the last 30 years or so, and different groups of people use it with different connotations."
Without wanting to open a general debate on "gay", presumably it would be more offensive to call someone who was in no way, shape or form ****stani if you did it so as to label them with whatever racist connotations you would usually say applied to "****s". So, if I think "****s" are, say, smelly, sadistic and illiterate wife-beaters, calling them "****s" is less than charming, but my racist intent is actually much more obvious if I call Wayne Rooney a "****". 😕
If I needed to refer to a ****stani I knew I'd abbreivate to **** too
What, as in 'I'm off down the **** shop, want anything?'
'Bloke at work's a ****; his wife makes a lovely curry'.
I can't see anything inherently wrong with the use of the abbreviation, in such contexts. There's no malice or abuse intended.
(Although '****' shop often means a paper shop, grocers, off-licence; I've found the term is used merely because the shop in question is being run by Asians/****stanis)
But I somehow doubt you'd be too willing to use it in a place like Bradford, or Stepney, for example.
Sheldona; if, what you mean by posting that link, is that you personally don't care, that's fine (why bother posting on the thread at all, is what I'm wondering), but I, and obviously several others, do care.
PK; that's a pretty balanced and well-thought out piece, actually. Thank you.
wally not racist.
Plus it was 3 years ago - dontr think anyone can argue that he hasnt grown up considerably since then.
Its right for the army to conduct a review but cant think of any positives that can be gained from taking it any further.
Bigdummy, oh dont be gay! 😛
But I somehow doubt you'd be too willing to use it in a place like Bradford, or Stepney, for example.
Because nobody would know which shop you were talking about?
(Although '****' shop often means a paper shop, grocers, off-licence; I've found the term is used merely because the shop in question is being run by Asians/****stanis)
I think that's where ignorance (racism?) comes through - calling all brown-skinned people ****, as if they're all from the same place. I'd say it was generally ignorance, rather than racism, though. Similar to calling a maccam a geordie?
Can we not just call everyone who doesnÃt have a valid up to date British passport Jonnie Foreigner? Like we used to before the PC brigade got a voice. Then we wonÃt leave anyone out and therefore should end this whole debate in one giant flag waving, Rule Britannia singing, cricket bat swinging, Port sipping, square bashing parade.
Or he could just say sorry and we go back to Gaza for some real news.
UK os so PC it's boring. There are the Frogs, the Poles, the Jews, but try to say anything about a non-European and/or their culture and you're called a racist.
You lot will end up without right to say anything whilst people like myself, foreigners, will be allowed whatever they choose.
The young Prince said what many think but are afraid of saying. He's NOT stupid, malicious or wrong. It's the BBC, The Sun and politicians who should shut up, not him.
And just the fact you talk about someone saying what Lib-Dems find offensive is worrying.
Can we not just call everyone who doesnÃt have a valid up to date British passport Jonnie Foreigner? Like we used to before the PC brigade got a voice.
Define 'we'.
miketually, similar, yet different.
I'll simplify this, as some people appear to be missing the point a little bit:
Us 'brown-skinned' people don't really like to be called '****s'. We'd prefer it if people didn't.
I think I can speak for brown people, although myself, I've never been anywhere near ****stan.
I'm from Hackney.
Can we not just call everyone who doesnÃt have a valid up to date British passport Jonnie Foreigner?
The '****' in question will have a British passport, won't he? So he's not a Jonnie Foreigner...
Us 'brown-skinned' people don't really like to be called '****s'. We'd prefer it if people didn't.
Seems fair enough.
Miketually - to get a British passport is a piece of cake. Pretty much anyone can have it.
RB - so why do you Brits allow them to call you whatever they please if they're so blooming sensitive?
It's the British belief that as a former Empire you should feel guilty, if the media are to be trusted (I know, a big IF). Therefore, if you go to ****stan you obey their rules, if you go to USA, you respect their laws, but if you live in UK, you don't give a monkey about not hurting natives.
If you tried it back at home it'd be painful. Here, in London at least, a through-and-through Englishman is victimised constantly, especially by local authorities and officials.
Enough, off the topic.
Eh?
😯
Here, in London at least, a through-and-through Englishman is victimised constantly, especially by local authorities and officials.
Explain, please, because, as a 'through and through Englishman', I don't feel I am constantly victimised.
Fred, what do "brown-skinned" people call the pallid natives of this damp island? I've been called a "honkie" and a "white see you next tuesday" by persons of more exotic extraction, but it always sounds a bit forced and silly...
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The term 'Brit' has never really been seen as offensive
Really???
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Try again.
BigDummy, I think the word in Bengali is 'Gora', or 'Goora' (pronunciation is a very complex thing, on a subcontinent with over 800 officially recognised languages and dialects). It just means 'white'. It is sometimes used in a derogatory context. Sorry, I don't actually speak and Asian language myself, so I can't tell you about all the others.
IME, Some 'Asians' can be some of the most narrow-minded, nasty, xenophobic ****s around. The Hindu caste system is based on [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_determinism ]Biological Determinism[/url], and many other Subcontinental cultures can be very insular and exclusive.
Racism is not the exclusive preserve of white, working class people.
I have, during my life, encountered some disgusting attitudes from people of all colours and creeds. Sadly, it seems ignorance and fear are prevalent in most communities.
through and through Englishman
I don't think I'm a "through and through Englishman". My maternal grandad is Scottish and my paternal grandad's grandad was Irish, so I have an Irish surname*. I'm just lucky not to be a ginger, I suppose 😉
* McTimoney. Apparently, it was made up when he came over here and no trace of him can be found in Ireland. I assume he was in the IRA or something.
Us 'brown-skinned' people don't really like to be called '****s'
I'm english. I have, on several occasions, been mistaken for an australian. Doesnt bother me. Never even set foot in Aus. As mentioned in a post above, the use of "****" as an insult or in a derogatory fashion (labelling anyone not white as "a ****" for example) is a different kettle of fish.
Indeed, my mother in law, who is a gujarati parsi, once remarked that "at least you are not black"...
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Indeed, my mother in law, who is a gujarati parsi, once remarked that "at least you are not black"...
Or ginger.
Or fat.
Unless you ride a full sus, then it's OK.
BigDummy, I could sit here for hours, and regale you with tales of some of the most horrendous prejudice, that I have encountered from people including members of my own family, but I have to go to the bank, then have other errands to run.
I hate racism and prejudice in all forms, regardless of where it comes from.
You can't give offense, only take it. All the people on the news are IMO idiots for jumping on the offended band wagon. You need to hear the opinion of the person it was directed to. Lot's of people have nicknames that other people may find offensive but in fact aren't to the person involved.
He describes him as his friend so hardly insulting him. It's just banter amongst friends that was never meant to be public. Oh, and it was 3 years ago?
I laughed when I saw the mock phone call on the news, thought it was very funny.
No one seems to worry when you see the Royals firing machine guns at Muslims
in Afghanistan.
Perhaps they could shout go home Ragheads and go back to ****stan.
Who ever released it is nowt but a s**t stirrer and beneath contempt. if the full word ****stani was used, would that be wrong. It's nothing but an abreviation. Indeed in areas of the Uk where I have worked that have a large asian based community , the word **** in reference to corner shops is common. Amongst those labled by that word. Complete rubbish and I have demeaned my self by rising to it.
My mate who is ****stani recently referred to himself as a "Blind ****". There's regularly a contingent of ****stani supporters at their cricket matches who have signs saying "****Power" etc.
So why is it ok for ****stanis to refer to themselves as ****s when it's not ok for everyone else? In fairness, the castigation of Prince Harry came from the ****stani soldier's uncle and from the self styled "Muslim Council of Britain".
My view - I wouldn't call someone a **** and I didn't like hearing my mate calling himself as such either.
When exactly did **** become offensive? Also, why would it be any worse the calling someone a jock, yank, pom, ozzy, kiwi etc...?
It's all quite ironic really, if his mum had a better driver than the alcoholic french guy he might have had a 'raghead' for a stepdad.
The term 'Brit' has never really been seen as offensive, whereas **** has a legacy of nastiness.True, a fair point, but how far do you take it. Black has also been linked to nastiness. Ginger has. We're ruling out whole swathes of dictionary because someone else at some point used them offensively.
Like Blackboard can't be blackboard. Get to **** if thats offensive. Any black person who finds it so needs bagging up. And not because they're black, because they're soft as shite.
A mate's brother was expelled from school a few years back because his black friend put some glasses on and he said "You look like Trevor Macdonald!". Who's the racist, the kid or the teacher for bringing way too much undue attention to the fact the kid's black? Boil's my blood sometimes, tells ya.
Racism and banter is a fine line, but why is it any different to calling me bald? That gets my goat, but can I report them for being hairist?
Farmer John; it's a bit like black people calling each other '****', I suppose. If the word, which can often be used in an abusive context, is used by someone the same as yourself, there can surely be no harmful intent. I see it as possibly similar to homosexual people re-appropriating the pink triangle symbol, as a symbol of their sexual and social identity. Maybe I'm a bit out on that one, I don't know. IE, it takes the negative aspect of the word away, so it no longer hurts.
Interestingly, I grew up with the term 'Chinky' being quite popular. I don't ever remember it being used in a negative derogatory manner, simply a term of description 'oh, you know, that Chinky bloke lives at number 12, he's good with cars and stuff', or 'fancy a Chinky tonight?', when planning a meal. It is not a term I use nowadays, as I'm not sure it's at all appropriate. But we had Chinese and Vietnamese playmates, at school, who we'd refer to as the 'Chinky kids'. We all got along fine, actually, and the Oriental children didn't seem to mind at all, as the term was never really used in a negative abusive context. More, a term of affection, I think.
This has actually been a very interesting discussion. Very sensible, for the most part, and intelligent.
The boy was loose with his tongue and it was all probably acceptable within the company he was in, so, so what.......... BUT..... I was a bog standard police officer for a goodly while and I am certain that had I done the exact same thing I would have been sacked BIG TIME. I do not think that is going to happen to him and I think he is in a far more responsible position than I ever was. The boy is probably "connected". Thursday night meetings blah blah blah, band of brothers on the bloody square, blah blah. Level playing field? I don't think so!
Bitter?
Yes please, mine's a pint.
When exactly did **** become offensive?
I think during the 1960s and 70s, when gangs of racist skinheaded thugs would rampage through Asian populated areas of London and other cities, going '****-Bashing'.
Myself, my father, some friends and several members of my family have been physically attacked for being '****s'. Every member of my father's family have, at some time, been racially abused. My mother was attacked and called a '**** Lover', one time, when she and I were coming back from the shops. I was about 4 years old, at the time.
Sorry I can't be bother to read all the comments, but I still want to say my two pennies worth (yeah bad I know)
A lot of fuss about not very much imo.
Yes calling someone a **** to their face is undoubtedly offensive. But he didn't do that. And he wasn't speaking in public. He's in the army ffs, not ****ing finishing school in ****ing Switzerland ❗
And it was several years ago - who gives a toss ?
......... well they wouldn't have, if it wasn't for the NoW - they are the ones who are the trouble makers. The poor guy probably didn't even know that he'd been called a '****'
And another thing, there's nothing wrong with referring to a '**** shop' I do, and I love my **** shop - the people are always very polite, and hard working, and open late, and very reasonably priced too. God bless **** shops I reckon.
And oh yeah, the scene in East Is East when the little **** boy comes running in saying the "the ****s are coming" is one of the funniest scenes in the best british movie [b]ever[/b] made. I reckon that too.
oh btw, I'm pretty sure that the people in my '**** shop' weren't actually ****stani, but that's beside the point - I still like them.
Ernie, I get where you're coming from, but you can appreciate the hate wrapped around that word.
Got to say, if I heard someone say '**** shop', I'd prefer them to just say 'corner/paper shop / offie' or whatever, to tell you the truth.
That scene in East is East had me on the floor. There were moments of that film that made me cry, too. Bit close to home. Brilliant film, though!
I worked in sales (a long time ago) where we had a client who was as bl8ck as the ace of spades and whom my colleague called 'you bl8ck b8stard'. He called my colleague 'h0nky' and when I met the guy in question he seemed one of the nicest guys I've met. We got on really well.
Have heard other stories like mine as well.
Can't we all (not the STW massive as this is a very good thread) just get over it and get on? The world would be a much better place... Sadly it seems the 'papers can't.
As a Royalist and someone who dislikes trash of any colour, I'm happy to be friends with someone who is nice whatever their colour or creed and I think most people feel that way. All my friends are like that anyway.
who was as bl8ck as the ace of spades
LOL ! "black" isn't a swear word !
You don't have to write it as "bl8ck" !
Thought it might not through the filter...