Whilst I can see the benefits of giving school leavers direction, it would of course be tax payer funded, requiring uniforms, accommodation, food, training, equipment, weapons etc.
Could we have similar initiatives in more positive and constructive industries?
Conscription to Greggs?
All well and good if it includes national service in non-killy roles such as the fire service as well. Why should we conscript people who don't want to take part in illegal wars?
Also, it's a bit ****ing rich coming from Harry who's risk in Afghanistan was heavily managed by his superiors.
Next up, workfare for fighting in Afghanistan.
That'd sort out those pasty faced youths
Conscription to Greggs?
That'd sort out those [s]pasty[/s] pastie faced youths
😆
I just woke up
Oh C'mon!
Conscription to Greggs?
That'd sort out those pasty faced youths
Fire service is a good call though.
How about national service to the renewable energy industry?
I just woke up
You need a job.
How about national service to the renewable energy industry?
Doing what exactly?
Fire service is a good call though.
Yup. Instead of sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle they can be paid to do it.
Totally fine with it if they can choose emergency service roles.
My problem with Harry saying this, is that it will be posh ****s like him inside a command bunker/vehicle sending a bunch of conscripted working class cannon fodder to their deaths. This is fine when it's totally voluntary as some people like fighting, but I have a real problem with it if it's via conscription.
The army's not all about war. I've seen the adverts, you jump in a helicopter deliver some aid , the locals wave at you and off you go.
Bit like Father Christmas.
Doing what exactly?
Assembly, installation, site surveying/allocation, research, development... many people with varying skill levels could fill a wide range of roles
All well and good if it includes national service in non-killy roles such as the fire service as well.
Doing what?
Nah Drac we're too busy proppin up the Ambo service, going to calls you cant be arsed going to once we've sorted you lot out we're onto emptying bins and sweeping the streets.
FYI
Homes under the hammer
many people with varying skill levels could fill a wide range of roles
Not really, this is for unskilled young people who will not yet have any real world skills.
What about the real people they replace?
You would be basically looking at an apprenticeship or manual labour.
This thread is like Alan Partridge pitching TV shows, just shouting out possible ideas with no thought behind them.
Youth Hostelling with Chris Eubank?
Arm Wrestling With Chas & Dave?
Monkey Tennis?
Surely the fire service could have a covert department that fills the same role as the intelligence services do for the army...
Create a problem which needs rectifying
But instead of starting wars, they could start fires...
Father Christmas in an Apache would be awesome.
Surely the fire service could have a covert department that fills the same role as the intelligence services do for the army...
Create a problem which needs rectifying
But instead of starting wars, they could start fires...
We do its called the retained fire service, need some holiday money, big credit card bill? Well start a fire in your local area and get a turn out fee
public service for the unemployed under 25's is a good call.. hospital portering, cleaning, carer support, casualty security, fire and rescue service, ambulance service ( maintaining vehicles work places etc) school crossing patrols, school janitors
loads of roles that would gain work experience and are all local so folks could stay at home and so they could attend job interviews etc
wouldnt seem unreasonable..
Not really, this is for unskilled young people who will not yet have any real world skills.
Are people trained in the army, or do they just get lumped with a gun and some grenades?
What about the real people they replace?
Who said anything about replacing anyone... the facts are, if we are to continue living in the style to which we are accustomed, changes to our energy supply are required sooner rather than later.
You would be basically looking at an apprenticeship or manual labour.
It's just a different use of the same human resource
Prince Harry, in favour of a system delivering more peasants for him to shout at?
There's a shock.
He mentioned that he could have made bad choices. I think his baseline for that might be a [i]bit[/i] skewed compared to most.
Are people trained in the army, or do they just get lumped with a gun and some grenades?
Of course you are trained in the army, however, the Army currently recruits volunteers. A big difference.
The Army don't want conscription, why should they bother trying to get unmotivated and disinterested teenagers to do stuff they don't want to do?
The standard of basic training is a lot higher now in the Army, than it was when we had conscription.
It's just a different use of the same human resource
Are you thinking of a "strength through joy" type approach?
I like the idea of the Pompier system here in France. It takes the pressure off Police and Ambulance services and instills discipline and sense of community in places where there may a shortage of worthwhile employment as society changes.
Not really sure how that measures out in cost to the community, but when I had a big off on the bike I was glad to know ten Pompier were legging it up the mountain to cart me off.
Very few just get given a bangy stick and boom balls anymore - they get mechanical skills, life skills, education, etc.
Far more than civvies of the same age get.
I have no issues at all with a "National Service" - be it forces or public service - far too many wander out of school/college/etc and do sod all expecting a handout.
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Are you thinking of a "strength through joy" type approach?
So by your reasoning, when I suggest an alternative to the National Service which has been suggested by a member of the Royal Family, I resemble a Nazi?
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Goodness me!
Is there a shortage of, for example, hospital porters in the UK?
Nah Drac we're too busy proppin up the Ambo service, going to calls you cant be arsed going to once we've sorted you lot out we're onto emptying bins and sweeping the streets.
FYI
Homes under the hammer
Damn! I was close.
**** me the world has gone mad.
Is there a shortage of, for example, hospital porters in the UK?
Not the ones i go to....reasonably well paid too with the usual NHS benefits and scope for overtime.
This kind of idea always goes the same way....
Somebody invariably suggests National Service as they enjoyed their Army career and felt it gave some discipline and direction to their life....somebody else cries foul as joining the Army obviously means becoming a baby killer and fighting in 'illegal' wars.....others chime in with suggestions of service in other emergency/essential/statutory roles, people who are already paid professionals in those services scoff at the idea of untrained/unemployed kids doing their job....gradually the ideas for jobs that kids could be 'conscripted' into spirals downwards until we arrive at street sweepers, cleaning graffiti etc etc....at which point others then chime in to declare these roles as demeaning, humiliating etc and we end up back with the status-quo where we pay our unemployed youth to stay at home doing nothing.
Yawn.
we end up back with the status-quo where we pay our unemployed youth to stay at home doing nothing.
Is that the status quo?
As an aside: Harry would have a valid opinion on what to do with unemployed youth, as he comes from a social background in which it's rare to go to university, none of his family ever had a full time job, he grew up in government housing, was reliant on state handouts for most of his life...
How about we give all school leavers a trust fund, some palaces to live in and a go at being in line to the throne and see how they get on?
I like that idea!
I'll get my pencil out and write Cameron a letter. He's bound to read a letter from me.
How about we give all school leavers a trust fund, some palaces to live in and a go at being in line to the throne and see how they get on?
To be inline for the throne you need to a blood relation to the current queen.
I could see some advantage to something compulsary for all young people, not just the unemployed. It could potentially provide a great life experience if you could throw an eton prefect in with a kid from a comprehensive in peckham, and get them doing something constructive together for a year or two. The problem with litter picking or grafiti cleaning is that it will motivate nobody. The armed forces, despite the moral question, can at least provide a decent sense of real consequences if you dont try hard and work together, even if you're not sending them out on active duty.
Of course a much better solution would just be to spend more on education, provide better teachers and better schooling in deprived areas, as well as a load more support for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Make them feel like they can be part of society, like they can make something of themselves. Much better to give them aspirations early, than just to try to scare them straight at 18.
So we give the youth work experience that costs little or nothing & remove paying work from the job market. That's going to work well and impress those whose jobs get done for nothing or lower cost.
Or we put them in the forces where a sizeable number won't be keen and will use resources that could be better used on those that wish to be there.
As usual a badly thought through idea from those who should know better. To make it work will take more thought and effort than is usually used for such schemes.
That's a no from me.
Why should Harry know better?
"They should do national service" is always directed at the young (ie those who can easily be forced into compliance). Why not at a broader age range if its so useful and beneficial?
People calling for national service make me angry. Usually such people are well clear of the age limits of call up, so they are happily volunteering others not themselves. Quite often they have never themselves been anywhere near the services and would never dream of taking part in them out of choice. Its so much do as I say, not as I do.
It seems deeply wrong to use enforced labour, esp when such labour placed in the military is at risk of severe psychological and physical damage or of being killed. It also seems unethical to force people into positions where they might be required/forced to severely injure or take the lives of others.
National service demands are a cop out on social responsibility. If people have social or employment issues they should be addressed by society and the government for what the problems are, not by the suggestion of sending people into what would be effectively a prison/labour camp by any other name.
Prince Harry - well maybe best to feel sorry for him on some levels. He was born into an unhealthy, self indulgent yet rigid system where his every life moment is documented by the press. He grew up in an environment (the institution of royalty) I think is cruel to children and their mental health and well being. Its a background not conducive to useful independent self development or self direction on many levels and places extremes on self discipline - either way too much discipline or almost none at all, not much normal middle ground.
I think if he had mixed with a larger number of normal people (not those personality types drawn to powerful control structures such as the military or obedient to obsessive royal protocol) he might find that thousands and thousands of everyday young people have self discipline, self awareness and the wit to moderate their own lives perfectly well without getting into difficulties and without being forced into a military structure to protect them from themselves. He is assuming his own poor decision making is by default endemic to all others.
It should also be said that unlike others, Prince Harry is always in the position of refusing to take part in any military activities he does not fancy, can walk away from the job at any time with no penalty and would always be provided with a 'legitimate' excuse for the benefit of the press and public. He also has no need to fear getting trapped long term in the military when wishing to move on - no worries about struggling on the dole or going down the food bank when he cannot find a civilian position. No homeless and unsupported with psychological illnesses.
I am not hugely convinced by his extolling the virtues of military life either - if its so great, why is he leaving at all? He is not a significant heir to the throne any more, he is not genuinely needed for official engagements (much better public relations for one of them to actually do some kind of visible job surely?) so why not spend his whole 'working' life within the military? Frankly he has nothing else useful to do other than pass his time in self pleasing ways. I saw he is helping to set up a games event for injured military people. I started off thinking that was really good, that he would do something long term useful for others, but then saw so many times in the papers that he only saw this as lasting a couple of years before it would be 'handed to others' to do instead. I foresee a long string of very very short 'helpful' careers, like the conservation work which could be an admirable and truly worthwhile multi decade job but which is already turning out to be timetabled to last months, not even years. Where is the self discipline here, in this already growing string of short term time filling toys?
What he needs is some self discipline, learned for life. Maybe he should join the military to learn some.....
Prince Andrew is one shining example of early military life creating the man long term.
Made sense when we had an empire full of savages to save from their own stupidity and build no strings attached railways for them 😆 except "most" (yes not all) of them got sick of it and violently opposed us carrying on as we were for some reason!
The whole things laughable and the kind of tripe you hear from pensioners living in bygone age.
totalshell - Memberpublic service for the unemployed under 25's is a good call.. hospital portering, cleaning, carer support, casualty security, fire and rescue service, ambulance service ( maintaining vehicles work places etc) school crossing patrols, school janitors
Good idea, let's make all the hospital porters, cleaners, carer supporters, casualty security guards , fire and rescue servicemen, ambulance services ( maintaining vehicles work places etc) school crossing patrols, and school janitors unemployed, then make other people who don't want to do it, do it instead.
If only there was some kind of organised national system of activities for the young that could give them the same skills and attitude that national service supposedly instills. We could make it a legal requirement that all kids aged 5 to 18 have to attend for 30 hours or so evey week.
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/prince-harry-called-up-to-join-the-fall-2015032396574 ]i thought Mark E Smith was sorting him out? [/url]
Man born into life of luxury and privilege wants kids to be press-ganged into the military?
that's clearly the answer 🙄
Confirms my opinion that Harry is a total cheb end. Always good to get input on what should be done with the mainstream youth in the UK from one of the most cosseted and entitled people in the country, whose life has been full of opportunity and privilege.
****!
Excellent idea which sadly is unlikely to happen.
.
National service belongs in the past , as does the monarchy.
The sooner we adopt the French attitude to the monarchy, the better, as we'd no longer have to listen to drivel like this
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Obviously the attention seeking grandson of mrs windsor wants some media attention, just like his fool of a dad got. Neither of which have ever had a proper job,had debts or a real life yet tell the rest of society what we should be doing, back to your jewel covered palace for you both.
“France needs powerful tools to help promote integration, mix young people of different social backgrounds and levels, and to instil Republican values and national cohesion”.
What better way to promote harmony and understanding than to potentially get your brains blown out for your country?
Best leave that stuff to the professionals who want to be there.
Or the drones.
To be fair, the main thrust of what he said is that he thought being in the services did him some good. As it happens I'd say the same myself about me. And I've never lived in a palace! I too think others might well benefit from the experience too.
I wish there had been some sort of national service when I left school.
I like the idea of it not just being military as I fully agree with it being a waste of time for those who do not want to be there but putting people into a public service type role - fire, police, coastguard, hospitals, military, education etc could help focus school leavers and would probably be beneficial to both those going to uni and those who aren't. Personally I would have chosen the military as my biggest regret it choosing to go back to Uni for a phd when i was offered an EO role in the RAF.
To be fair, the main thrust of what he said is that he thought being in the services did him some good. As it happens I'd say the same myself about me
Which is fine.
Personally I would have chosen the military as my biggest regret it choosing to go back to Uni for a phd
An important word used twice!
I wish there had been some sort of national service when I left school.
There are any number of volunteering opportunities available for those who feel they need some shaping of their character.
When I left education, I got a job.
Presumably those who support the idea would be happy to take part?
I support compulsory military service, but only because I don't trust professional armies.
ernie_lynch - Member
I support compulsory military service, but only because I don't trust professional armies.
How many armies, though? Surely that's the question. Makes you think, doesn't it?
There are any number of volunteering opportunities available for those [b]who feel they need [/b]some shaping of their character.
As someone who now spends the majority of him time dealing with people between 16 & 18yrs old could I respectfully suggest that not all folk of that age are particularly good at appreciating what they need, despite what they think at the time. Those that 'feel' anything other than their own groin are probably the least in need of help!
Presumably those who support the idea would be happy to take part?
I would presume that a considerable chunk of those that think its a good idea probably have (experienced the military in their youth, though the number who did it as national service is dwindling now), that's why they appreciate what service life can do for you. Most who have not, understandably, have a very hazy understanding and make rather wild assumptions - it's quite funny sometimes, I blame the movies.
I'm not in the compulsion camp for the good reasons many have described and it's not for everybody. But at the same time there are plenty that could benefit but would never do so without a push, which is a shame.
Never happen. The govt (and the previous one) seem to think the TA should do it all 😆
I can't see there ever being an acceptable way of having compulsory military service. A kind of civilian service corps without the stabby shooty stuff could be done I suppose but how without it affecting people currently employed to do the stuff which could be taken on; I don't know.
I've long thought that NATO should have a rotation for units to do the non war stuff like natural disasters, anti poaching, even construction in areas that need it. The Uk could even have their own dedicated organisation supported by the military for the shooty stuffs. Pie in the sky I'm afraid.
[url= http://www.ncsyes.co.uk/ ]current David Cameron plan for Natioan Citzenship Scheme[/url]
2013 cost
[quote[i]]The Office for Civil Society spent £62m, almost half its total budget, on the National Citizen Service in the year to March 2013,[/[/i]quote]
brief overview
[i]National Citizen Service (NCS) is a voluntary personal and social development programme for 16 and 17-year olds in England.[1] It was piloted in 2011.
The scheme takes place in the spring, summer or autumn coinciding with school holidays. Groups of 60 teenagers undertake a residential visit to an activity centre for an Outward Bound–style course in the countryside involving hiking and team-building activities. This typically lasts for three weeks in the summer, or 4–5 days in the autumn and spring version. After this volunteers undertake a residential week of volunteering work. Finally participants undertake a series of day trips at home and create a community-based project to raise awareness of a particular issue. Those completing the course receive a certificate.
[/i]
wrecker - MemberI can't see there ever being an acceptable way of having compulsory military service.
There could be, if there was some need. But the entire british armed forces consist of 184000 people including reservists, so exactly what they'd do with 4 times that many kids on national service, every year, who knows.
I don't really agree with making people train to kill others if they don't want to (as every single member of the armed forces is, from chefs to the posties). It would have a negative effect on the forces too.
The govt would never agree to it in a million years, the pension fund alone would be unmanageable.
If you're talking WW3, then that's an entirely different proposition.
Deleted.
I wish there had been some sort of national service when I left school.
The armed forces existed when you left school, you chose not to sign up, live with that choice.
Don't force others to do something you didn't bother to do yourself.
I wish occasionally that I had made the choice of a short service commission - would have taught me a lot. Ended up in Tokyo instead! A different lesson altogether!
Best, (and worst) 12yrs of my life in the Army.
kelvin - MemberThe armed forces existed when you left school, you chose not to sign up, live with that choice.
Don't force others to do something you didn't bother to do yourself.
Eggsactly.
To be fair, the main thrust of what he said is that he thought being in the services did him some good. As it happens I'd say the same myself about me. And I've never lived in a palace! I too think others might well benefit from the experience too.
Going to uni did me a lot of good and others would probably benefit from doing the same. I wouldn't make it compulsory, though.
If nothing else, Harry's family do seem to have accumulated a lot of medals:
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National Service? In a miltary where numbers are constantly being cutback, who's going to train these people?
Re-employ ex-instructors? That costs. Clothing and equipment? That costs. Boost admin and HR? That costs
I understand the sentiment but it doesn't stand scrutiny. The military is way more technical than it was in the 1950s and two years (as it was then) just about gives you a reasonable skill level at which point you leave
You could make everyone join the TA, one evening a week and the odd weekend only
...missed a bit...to maintain their skills, in a similar way to the Israeli military, for a further few years, but that's a massive commitment by all concerned
^Is that 2 of the 3 generations of a family that have lived on benefits? As mentioned by A Blair and ID Smith.
I understand the sentiment but it doesn't stand scrutiny.
To be honest I don't think anyone thinks it does, Harry included. I think most understand that logistically it is a complete non starter so that's not a particularly interesting thing to debate. The more interesting issue to debate is if some sort of theoretically compulsive period of time for all at the beginning of your adult life that involved some sort of instilling of discipline and public duty would be a good thing or both for the nation and the individual. A sort of right of passage into society as an adult.
Personally in the right context it would seem a good thing (though I acknowledge logistically it's a non starter). I'd also have all folk doing jury service on receipt of their first pension payment relieving the working population of the duty and bringing back a sort of judgement by your elders element to society.
Yeh, just what the fire service needs. More unmotivated, disinterested five year service firefighters.
Despite what some people think the fire service has evolved into a highly professional public service covering everything from fire, road accidents, hazmat, rescues from height, trauma care, marauding terrorist response etc etc.
But what we really need is people who don't give a flip joining our ranks.
P.s anyone who voted in the Tories - well I hope you never require a public service again.
We do its called the retained fire service, need some holiday money, big credit card bill? Well start a fire in your local area and get a turn out fee
If you genuinely believe that, I think you may have a somewhat inflated view of how much we get paid to do the same job as our wholetime colleagues!
The more interesting issue to debate is if some sort of theoretically compulsive period of time for all at the beginning of your adult life that involved some sort of instilling of discipline and public duty would be a good thing or both for the nation and the individual.
Don't we have that already? We call it "school".
Should there be cash/time made available for schools to take kids on outward bound courses, and to get involved with the local community? Yes.
Should we spend money on delaying young adults from getting on with their lives? No.
Sadly, the "schools as exam factories" approach that we seem to be heading down is removing opportunities for experiencing a wider curriculum.