[Closed] Police Kettling Cyclists outside Olympic Opening

So why not meet up and then ride off in several smaller groups? You still get your rides, no-one else is inconvenienced, everyone's happy. No?

Why can't I ride with who I chose, regardless of group size?

[i]I do if I am given a legitimate and legally justifiable reason for the officer's request. Other wise I ignore (and have done so on numerous occasions) the request. I would do so safe in the knowledge i am breaking no law. [/i]

Those Southern police are far too nice...

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in my opinion, these are the things that have happened to increase cycling in Britain's cities and make it better for cyclists:
- cycle to work scheme
- a recession
- increasing tube/ train/ petrol prices
- companies providing changing facilities for cyclists/ joggers
- Lottery/ British Cycling investing in and raising the profile of cycle sport in the UK

Not Critical Mass.

Did the police have 'reasonable suspicion' that a breach of the peace was indeed going to take place? Because CM is almost always peaceful with no arrests and without any breach of the peace occurring.

I saw a fairly extensive BOP in that video posted earlier.

Did the police have any other information to suggest this? Because in order for a police officer to arrest somebody, 'reasonable suspicion' must be justified. I have not seen or heard anything so far which supports this

Failing to heed requests to stay away from the olympic routes and repeatedly blocking them, plus the behaviour seen in the video is more than ample proof that there was a reasonable suspicion that there would be a BOP if steps were not taken to rein them in.

Then there are numerous allegations that people were denied food and water, adequate toilet facilities, and access to legal representation.

Which makes them sound like a bunch of whiny little children.

As foryour point that the EDL are different and CM have no history of public disorder.... I've not seen any video of the EDL assaulting police officers and repeatedly breaking the law by riding through red lights and obstructing the highway, or standing in the street shouting '**** the police' and '**** the olympics'

Mikeconnor - I'll offer you one simple challenge... Give me [b]one[/b] reason why every single [s]protester[/s] celebrationist that I saw on that video should not be prosecuted for cycling through a red light.

Why can't I ride with who I chose, regardless of group size?

You can. But it's selfish. No-one's stopping you though (other than for one day in one small area).

We're going round in circles here now. What do you gain with such a large group over a couple of smaller ones?

What would you lose over a compromise that makes everyone happy rather than just your group?

Critical Mass is all about people who enjoy cycling in London meeting up once a moth to enjoy riding in a group of other like-minded individuals.

I ride once a day with thousands of other like minded individuals on my daily commute. On this evening's edition, not one of our number assaulted a policeman. And, yes, while there are a minority who are still RLJing asshats, none of us deliberately blocked large junctions for a long period of time. Also, when the police were calmly and politely asking people to use a different route around some Games related diversions, no one that I saw told them to **** off.

I like to think that we, as a group, contributed to making cycling better.

mikeconnor - Member

Did the police have 'reasonable suspicion' that a breach of the peace was indeed going to take place?

In fact as a point of accuracy the power of arrest for Breach of the Peace is ‘reasonably believes’, which is a HIGHER test than mere suspicion.

On this occasion the CM counter culture were playing at being agent provocateur’s (without a great deal of sophistication) - and it backfired. Simple as that.

No surprise there then, how about your own members twitter feeds? about disruption of the olympics...is that evidence enough? Or is it just vitriol on my part? Also, I am still waiting for you to justify the cases I pointed out...But you can't can you? Of course I was not there; but am I not part of the general public to are trying to convince of your cause? Sorry forgot you don't have one. And again you claim the police cannot act as they will yet again ignoring the very fact that your own members..sorry people who just happened to turn up for an informal ride.You are full of it, trying to claim,as you have done right through this thread, that anybody who disagrees with your groups methods is wrong.

Just so we are clear,these are my "prejudices" and "deeply entrenched views"

1) An arse is still an arse if they own a bike
2) Your demo WAS designed to disrupt as much of the Olympic ceremony as possible
3) The blocking of junctions is and was more than ensuring that the riders can stay together.
4) Your members deserved to be arrested for that, as it is a breach of the peace,despite any claims you were making that the police can't do it,I am afraid they can.
5) CM is an organisation,having both a press officer and access to QC's is a wee bit more that a Thursday ride.
6) Your members assaulted and crowded the police who were trying to move you on from the junction your members had chosen to block.
7) As stated above, your members took to twitter to boast of the disruption they were going to cause.
8 ) Your members assaulted the police.

I have taken part in the Edinburgh rides many moons ago, couldn't be more different to that one.

Go on then challenge my prejudices; It would seem far more people on here share at least some of them than side with you. In your second post you admit that there is an element that is out for trouble, yet seem to want to justify their actions,despite the damage they do your perceived cause, sorry; you don't have a cause,do you? That is strange IMO.

OP here. I started this thread with no knowledge of Critical Mass (hence the title, it could well have been 'Asshat hipsters on fixies punch policeman' or 'democracy in tatters; the story of a gentle bikeride' by the sounds of it. I hope this demonstrates that not all (if any) of STW are reactionary bigots)
Mike, thanks for coming along.
I don't want this thread closed, let's keep it civil.

One thing though - It seems CM are trying to change some perceptions. I don't understand why they are getting rolled up in the (forgive my airquotes) 'pro-democracy', 'anti-police telling us what to do' scene. It's all very anti-establishment. Surely the best course of action would be to work [i]with[/i] the establishment (including complying with coppers' reasonable, polite requests) such to bring about change quickly, instead of seemingly rallying against authority. Yes I appreciate the arguments that CM is not organised, that it HAS contributed to change in an establishment friendly way. But why has this anti-establishment incident occurred, unless there is some culture inherent to the bikeride that permits it?

Whereas i saw a video of a police officer using disproportionate force against the first guy with the bike, a woman trying to get him to calm down perhaps, then the officer seemingly losing control and becoming quite agitated

Do they give out the Acid before the ride or do you need to bring your own?

I am inconvenieced by motorists practically every journey I make by bike, yet i accept that as part of riding in a large city.

Compromise is the key here. But the main problem which exists is that instead of sharing the space on our roads, we end up having to compete for it. Which is why we arrive at a position of conflict.

Do you who oppose CM align yourselves with those who oppose mountain bikeing, or do you believe you are entitled to act as you see fit?

but when even other bike users condemn your tactics,it is a sign you are getting it badly wrong.

I still feel there's too much judgmental prejudice going on, and people expressing their own individual views as that of greater society's, and I would like to try to help people see an alternative view of things.

do think it's very important that people fully understand the extent and limitations of police powers as well as their own legal obligations. Because if everyone did so, there would be less confusion on both sides, and less cause for conflict.

See that bit i said earlier about you being aware of your rights and not aware of your responsibilities...it still applies ut now in bucketloads
You rright its the cippers fault you are not at all bolshie or provocative...they are just misinformed

Oh dear. Mike - you're on a cycling forum. This is meant to be your natural audience. Your core support! See much of it, do you? Does that not tell you something? Like Maybe you should try changing your approach. If its winning you sod all sympathy with a group who would be your natural allies, then you're getting something very very very wrong.

But don't bother taking any of this on board. Just dismiss us, in a very messianic, blairite style, in the most condescending manner imaginable, as all being wrong. As you clearly couldn't possibly be wrong, could you?

I'm prepared to go out on a limb here and guess that the people on here readily criticising you, are people who probably have a lot more knowledge on the subject, about riding on city streets. And compromise is indeed the answer. Though, despite you claiming this, I see precious little of it from CM.

Do you not find it ironic that James Murdoch in sponsoring the Skyride etc, and Boris Johnson and Barclays for that matter, have done more for cycling than you?

ok binners, no need to twist the knife.

I often find when Hippy/anarchists/pothead types have run out of rational argument they appeal to me to be open minded whether talking about ley lines, druidhs, aliens or any other guff they are spouting. it is never convincing

I do if I am given a legitimate and legally justifiable reason for the officer's request. Other wise I ignore (and have done so on numerous occasions) the request.

And the 99% of us are not wiki lawyers, haven't read up on the exact intricacies of police powers, the full extents of the road traffic and rights of way acts, the acts and specific legislation for London covering gatherings and protests, etc. etc.

And I'd wager that if CM really is just a group of cyclists meeting for a ride with no agenda, then a significant portion of them won't have read up on those exact applicable bits of legislation either.

Fair enough.

And the 99% of us are not wiki lawyers, haven't read up on the exact intricacies of police powers, the full extents of the road traffic and rights of way acts, the acts and specific legislation for London covering gatherings and protests, etc. etc.

And I'd wager that if CM really is just a group of cyclists meeting for a ride with no agenda, then a significant portion of them won't have read up on those exact applicable bits of legislation either.

In your second post you admit that there is an element that is out for trouble, yet seem to want to justify their actions

Sorry, where exactly have I justified or condoned the actions of those who use CM as a platform for their own political agendas? Unlike you, I don't blanket all CM riders as 'troublemakers', as you seem to. Did all 'members' set out to cause disruption? Did all 'members' assault police? Or was it in fact, as is evident in the video footage, just a very small minority who were actively involved in any incident?

You weren't at the ride, yet you claim you 'know' that " Your demo WAS designed to disrupt as much of the Olympic ceremony as possible". So, once again, do you have proof that all those who participated were intent on causing disruption? And I have made no claim to be a 'member' of what you apparently perceive as a political movement. I have merely stated that I have participated in CM rides, is all, and am a supporter of the concept.

What is clear from this, is that CM riders need to be critical of how they are perceived, and for individuals to make decisions on the nature of their involvement. That there will always be individuals such as yourself who jusge from behind your keyboard, is not something that anyone else can be held responsible for. No matter how law-abiding, peacful and non-disruptive CM might be, there will always be those who oppose it. Such is the nature of our society.

Now, if you were to direct that same apparent ire at the taxi drivers protest, would you not argue that these people set out to cause maximum disruption, and should therefore have been similarly arrested? Because that protest (as opposed to simply a gathering) caused far more disruption to other Londoners than Friday's CM did.

Go on then challenge my prejudices; It would seem far more people on here share at least some of them than side with you.

It also seems that far more people on here have absolutely no experience of CM from a participatory point of view yet feel quite free to express their views. As is often the case, a lack of actual experience and knowledge of something leads to ill-informed opinions and unfounded prejudice.

Duckman; have you ever been on a London CM ride?

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CM went out looking for trouble. They found it. They cried about it. Boo hoo.

What surprises me most of all about this thread, is that Cougar hasn't posted anything.

He usually pops along with a few pertinent questions, and I'm surprised he hasn't asked the CM press guy anything.

Perhaps he's on holiday?

What surprises me most of all about this thread, is that Cougar hasn't posted anything.

He usually pops along with a few pertinent questions, and I'm surprised he hasn't asked the CM press guy anything.

Perhaps he's on holiday?

Now, if you were to direct that same apparent ire at the taxi drivers protest, would you not argue that these people set out to cause maximum disruption, and should therefore have been similarly arrested? Because that protest (as opposed to simply a gathering) caused far more disruption to other Londoners than Friday's CM did.

I didn't see the taxi drivers assaulting police officers or chanting '**** the police' or '**** the olympics'

The CM [s]protesters[/s] gathering were not arrested for causing disruption to traffic, they were arrested for behaviour likely to create a breach of the peace - the video of that police officer being attacked was absolutely disgusting, and in trying to defend what happened there, you serve only to damage both your own argument, and the reputation of the entire Critical Mass movement

I'm prepared to go out on a limb here and guess that the people on here readily criticising you, are people who probably have a lot more knowledge on the subject, about riding on city streets. And compromise is indeed the answer. Though, despite you claiming this, I see precious little of it from CM.

Do you not find it ironic that James Murdoch in sponsoring the Skyride etc, and Boris Johnson and Barclays for that matter, have done more for cycling than you?

I'm equally prepared to 'go out on a limb' and suggest you don't know me, and have no actual idea of my involvement in promoting cycling in London. I suspect it's possibly more than you have achieved. And i'd also hazard a guess that I have somewhat more experience of riding in London than you, if you are a Manchester resident. Have you ever been on a London CM ride?

Oh dear. Mike - you're on a cycling forum. This is meant to be your natural audience. Your core support!

This is a forum that appears to cater for a particularly narrow demographic of all cyclists, from what I can see. As I've now mentioned several times; cyclists are not one homogenous group, rather a disparate collection of diverse individuals. We come from all walks of life, social backgrounds, cultures and political affiliations. There is never going to be a truly universal and harmonious consensus amongst us. To believe such would be foolish.

What I have noticed, is that by challenging perceptions, I have provoked many reactions, and whilst overwhelmingly opinion may be contrary to mine, it still appears that most people commenting here have no personal experience of CM other than what they see repeated in various media, not all of which can be claimed to be at all impartial, let's face it.

So, is it not better to actually find out for yourself, rather than basing your opinions on what others tell you?

Do they give out the Acid before the ride or do you need to bring your own?

Are you incapable of accepting someone may have a differing viewpoint, without resorting to cheap insults? am I not entitled to have my own opinion, as you are? We see things differently. Do you have a problem with that?

Mike, you're just replying to the people who are the most inflammatory. Be careful; they're veterans of this sort of thing 😉

Free acid? yippee!

This is a forum that appears to cater for a particularly narrow demographic of all cyclists, from what I can see. As I've now mentioned several times; cyclists are not one homogenous group, rather a disparate collection of diverse individuals. We come from all walks of life, social backgrounds, cultures and political affiliations. There is never going to be a truly universal and harmonious consensus amongst us. To believe such would be foolish.

There seems to be such a harmonious consensus against your opinion and against CM in general though, doesn't there? 🙂

When the likes of Junky and I (a disparate, albeit small, collection of diverse individuals) agree with each other, etc....

Your experience of this forum is one thread, where you've been a sock puppet.

I'm equally prepared to 'go out on a limb' and suggest you don't know me, and have no actual idea of my involvement in promoting cycling in London. I suspect it's possibly more than you have achieved. And i'd also hazard a guess that I have somewhat more experience of riding in London than you,

And I'd wager that I've got more people with their bums on saddles and enjoying riding bikes than you, but then that's just my opinion. As someone who rides across town every day, as well as having a job that involved riding all over town a couple of years back (A job in the bike industry, where I helped make people's experience of cycling better, as it happens), then I'd also wager that your experience of cycling in London is irrelevant.

I've been on CM rides in the past, but ever since the "movement" was taken over by asshats, I've avoided them. This recent spat of asshattery has done nothing to encourage me to return.

Mike, you're just replying to the people who are the most inflammatory. Be careful; they're veterans of this sort of thing

Oh, am i being 'trolled' or whatever it's called? Ah. Maybe time to just ignore certain people then, and go and do something more productive, like fit new lights to my bike; can't be riding around without lights at night now, can we? Because that would be illegal.

So, is it not better to actually find out for yourself, rather than basing your opinions on what others tell you?

I have experienced a few London Critical Masses, not as a participant but as an observer (in a car, on a bike and as a pedestrian) and they seemed rudderless and pointless so I won't be an active participant as I have far better and more constructive things to do with my time.

Oh, am i being 'trolled' or whatever it's called? Ah. Maybe time to just ignore certain people then, and go and do something more productive, like fit new lights to my bike; can't be riding around without lights at night now, can we? Because that would be illegal.

So, once again, do you have proof that all those who participated were intent on causing disruption?

Well, given that Critical Mass is not 'organised' by anyone how would you get that proof? A quick googling shows that quite a few people were promoting this as an attempt to disrupt the Olympics. But of course that is just the view of a few individulas (who happen to come together to celebrate cycling), not the view of CM itself. Becuase it apparently has no views although it does seemingly have an objective.
As I said before. Your disingenuousness won't win you any friends.

It also seems that far more people on here have absolutely no experience of CM from a participatory point of view yet feel quite free to express their views.

I have absolutely no experience of CM, my views are formed solely from this thread. Specifically, I've seen a lot of rebuttal about what CM [i]aren't[/i], but what CM [i]are [/i]seems to be thus far elusive. Is it a secret?

Oh he's up there, waiting for a satisfactory response to his pertinent question

I get that a lot.

This is a forum that appears to cater for a particularly narrow demographic of all cyclists, from what I can see.

I'd be hard pressed to think of a demographic not represented on STW, to be honest (inside or outside of cycling). Swiss lifeguards, perhaps. But I wouldn't like to bet on that.

is it not better to actually find out for yourself

Oddly, that's exactly what I'm trying to do.

This is a forum that appears to cater for a particularly narrow demographic of all cyclists, from what I can see.

Quite the opposite, I'd say. Especially compared to a more road oriented forum.

Far more variations of mountain biking, plus a quite significant road cycling contingent too. Everything from sick to the power of rad BMXers, to downhillers to out for a ride in the hills to cyclocross to towpath riders, XC racers, roadies, long distance tourers, commuters (in and out of the city), chain gangers, ... all on here. People that drive to go cycling, people that out of principle see cars and bikes as mutually exclusive, ...

And many of us tick many more than one box there.

Mike--the vast majority of antagonists on here enjoy baiting, its their little pleasure, so when a new fish comes along they get very excited, but its a waste of time 'reasoning' , they have a set of prejudices that are reinforced all around us in daily discourse, media, websites, forums, so they feel righteous in their ignorance, and any who disagree with this path ....well they're, asshats !!!

For what its worth where i live, n wales, we had a couple of 'mass' rides years ago protesting against a proposed by-pass, among the fifty or so riders was a CTC campaign officer, a bloke who now is part of sustrans wales, and other assorted activists. Like most CMs' passed off with no problems, and was nice to feel safe on some A roads for a change, -- the by pass wasn't built but thats another story.

As you must already be aware cyclists are a weird lot, and for every friendly one there is an opposite.......

I wasn't at that particular junction, and i have already stated that there are times when the group stops and blocks junctions, however they don't usually do so for very long, just a few minutes, then move away. How long was that particular junction blocked for?

So why does it matter how long the junction was blocked for?

The fact that they chose to block a junction at all makes your statement that they are "Just out for a ride" sound like total b0ll0cks wouldn't you say ?

As it happens it was probably somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes (didn't time it as I was a pedestrian observing it, not a driver)

That's a he'll of a long time to be sat watching the traffic lights going red-green-red-green etc.

All the while the CM Members (I'm not going to believe there is no organisation- sorry) were goading the drivers that were being held up and laughing at them [b] trying to provoke a reaction so they can then Cry "assault" etc etc.

As I said before, complete bunch of Nobbers, adolescent toss bags.

(this was my first experience of CM, never heard of them before, and that's the impression that I went away with)

You lot need a new PR department, because currently, you are ****ing it up completely.

Mike - you are certainly not being 'trolled'. That would actually be a lot easier for you. This is a cycling forum, that while often being cynical, contains a lot of people who are passionate about the subject. I'm one of them. At the time when I was working in Manchester city centre, commuting by bike every single day, we all, without exception regarded CM as a bunch of misguided idiots, and opportunists, who not only achieved absolutely nothing positive, but managed to turn public opinion against us

If you're incapable of seeing this then you need to take a step back and take a long hard look at the reality of the situation, not the ridiculous and cloud-cuckoo-land 'ideals'

but what CM are seems to be thus far elusive. Is it a secret?

they are the rag-tag crew of a rudderless ship on a mission to do nothing whatsoever at all and in doing so raise awareness of their plight.

So, once again, do you have proof that all those who participated were intent on causing disruption?

Really if you cannot get us on board and you manage to unite as broad a church as me , Zulu, binners and Cpt....i salute you, i thought i was impossible never mind over a cycling issue

I know you will ignore all this but there is some useful information here on how you could at least not alienate you natural supporters never mind what you do to car drivers/other road users.
I know you feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall. trust us it is a mutual feeling 😉 but at least reflect on the fact that even cyclists disagree with you - to say we are not reflective is arrogant pish which no doubt comes easily to you if your posts are anything to go by- I dont mean to be personal but nothing posted so far seem to have made you think or reflect

You do a great disservice to cyclist with your actions though your aims and motivations are noble your methods are as stupid , not well though out and it counter productive...but hey you know your rights and everyone else can go **** themselves right

PS Rudebowy seems to hold some strong opinions about the forum for a new poster who has only ever posted on this issue

they have a set of prejudices that are reinforced all around us in daily discourse, media, websites, forums, so they feel righteous in their ignorance, and any who disagree with this path ....well they're, asshats

Mods - please check the IP addresses of the brand new anonymous members on this thread. They are the virtual equivalent of a bandana'd protester 😀

Lol!

Dylan from Bangor just signed up to say how much he supports the opinions of someone from London.

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Proper LOL at crikey - 'chinny reckon'. I've not heard that for 25 years 😀

Is it too late to tutt disapproving?

Can't claim the idea; it was used on here a week or so ago, just recycling the goodness... 🙂

Critical Mass have done nothing wrong a group of cyclist's is how threatening?

Certainly living in E11 my thought are with them hope they all get off they've done nothing wrong!

Locog have shut off rights of access for years why shouldn't people protest about that at the least opportune moment?

Why should they be physically abused for riding bikes, I've ben at parties that have been pigged and been treated better...

I've ben at parties that have been pigged and been treated better...

Really should have mass protested Box hill. I mean think of the impact and good will you could have generated sticking it to the man , LOCOG and standing up for your inalienable rights...I mean there was only a million or so there to watch the race but **** them you got rights, right

Was there any jelly?

If they want to protest against the Olympics, then * me! Good *ing luck to 'em! But WTF has this got to do with cycling? Opportunism. Pure and simple. They're idiots! Who are doing considerably more harm than good

If you're going to protest, then do it!!! But FFS grow a pair and stop hiding behind other people to do it, you shithouses!