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TLDR: Is my piano tuner taking bollox?
We got a free piano a couple of years ago. It's a bog standard upright maybe from the 1960s or possibly earlier. The person who comes to tune it says that it's tuned to itself, but is out relative to other instruments. We can hear this when the kids try to play a duet on trumpet and piano (I know, 1st world problems!). The piano tuner says that she can try to tune it correctly ie to other instruments, but she's worried that some of the strings will snap. The kids piano teachers says that this is unlikely and if it does it's only likely to be the highest (thinnest) strings which will snap, which can be replaced. Not sure how to proceed, I'm tempted to ask the tuner to just try and fully it tune it and see what happens.
Whaddya think?
A piano can be in tune with itself, but you could also ask for it to be tuned to the trumpet. Might be tricky for piano tuner.
Yep sounds legit.
Our solution to exactly this problem (albeit with 3 trumpets) was a second hand Roland RD-170 stage piano.
Never goes out of tune.
I would probably trust the person who has tuned the piano and can see the condition of it rather than a teacher who hasn't.
What if 20 strings broke? Are they expensive, do they take a long time to fit (never had a piano)
If you are going to play it with other instruments you don't really have a choice unless all the other instruments tune to your piano (i.e swap the trumpet for a guitar!)
I think it applies to most if not all instruments.
Standard tuning as I understand it is A at 440hz which is what the Oboe (?) in an orchestra gives out so that every other instrument can tune to that.
Download one of the acoustic tuner apps and check against that.
Look out for one that will give you note and octave unless you know your way round the keyboard and be aware of background noise as this will/can effect the display.
As Brant says, surely you just tune the trumpet to the piano?
We have a 120+ year old piano and it is in the same situation.
Regular tuning is just like truing a wheel up. Complete retune would be like completely retensioning the wheel - some of the spokes/nipples would be likely to snap. I wouldn't attempt that on a 60 year old wheel let alone a 120 year old one.
Don't forget that there will probably be 2 or 3 strings per key on the keyboard. That is a lot to tune/replace if they start snapping.
The tuner speaks truth. Our piano can be heaved into tune (with itself) but getting it spot on would be an effort and could cause a lot more expense.
Apologies if you are aware of this, but trumpets are usually tuned to Bb, whereas every other instrument is tuned to C, because reasons. So trumpet notation is written a major second higher than every other instrument. So if you want to play a 'C' on both the piano and trumpet, you'd play what the trumpeter considers to be a D (a whole tone or a 2nd higher).
If you have music scores that are written for a piano / trumpet duet this should have been accounted for, but if you're trying to DIY this may explain why everything is (a whole tone) out.
As Brant says, surely you just tune the trumpet to the piano?
+1 Its far easier to tune the trumpet to the piano, particularly if the piano is flat which is what the piano tuner is telling you, than the other way round. As above play a Bb on the piano and blow a C on the trumpet and adjust the trumpet accordingly.
if it's really out you can probably get a slightly longer tuning slide, go to a proper music shop or speak to someone like Rath trombones or a brass repairer
Thanks all, lots to consider here. I'm browsing digital pianos as we speak. At £100 a pop for tuning, a decent digital will soon pay for itself.
If your piano hasn’t been kept at A=440hz it might struggle to get up there or stay there. The trumpet will have been designed to play in tune at A=440. If the piano isnt far from 440 then maybe not a problem but if its too far out then things could sound funny, even if the trumpet can tune to the piano’s A or Bflat.
If its not a high quality piano but you like it, prob best to tune it to where it’s happy and accept that it sounds a bit funny if people try to play along with it...depending how far out it is.
Then save up for an electric one !
I should have said that the kids know how to tune their trumpet and cornet to the piano as they do that for performances, I think that our old plinky plonk us just too far out.
I think you'll only be able to tune the trumpet so far down, and getting a longer tuning slide isn't a solution I've ever heard of and I'm a brass player. Maybe the shank from a flugelhorn would work if the bore is the same?
As an ex professional brass player, I can state that most instruments are now tuned to A442 as this gives more leeway to accommodate different situations and instrument types/makers.
If you're tuning the trumpet to the piano, won't that just mean that you've then got two instruments out of tune?
(I'm not musical so I've no idea really)
tuning the trumpet to the piano
If you’re tuning the trumpet to the piano, won’t that just mean that you’ve then got two instruments out of tune?
Providing they are in tune with each other it'll be OK. Concert pitch has varied over the years and even now the International Standard A=440Hz isn't universally applied. German orchestras play sharper than UK ones.
The problem is that a lot of older pianos won't hold their original pitch.
If you’re tuning the trumpet to the piano, won’t that just mean that you’ve then got two instruments out of tune?
Yes.... but not really, no.
As long as the piano is in tune with itself i.e there's the right amount of seperation between each note then it'll sound fine in isolation. If you then tune the trumpet so that a C played on the piano sounds the same as the equivalent note on the trumpet ( not a C because reasons as above) then they'll sound fine together.
That's why an orchestra all need to tune up at the start so that they're all in tune together.
It seems to me that what your piano tuner hasn't told you is that tuning a piano to an exact tuning takes a lot of time and effort. Every string will have to be tuned and possibly several times as the frame distorts with the slightly tighter strings. The strings will only break if they're in poor condtion, i.e. rusty.
Just to update this, I picked up an as new Roland HP503 for a very good price and managed to get the old acoustic collected the day before Christmas Eve. Should have got one ages ago, so much more versatile. Thanks again for the all the suggestions.
Who collected the old piano? My wife has been thinking about this exact same problem, but when we've enquired about getting rid of the old piano nobody seems to want it, even though it's actually a fairly decent upright, leaving the tip as the only option which seems a terrible waste!
A digital piano would be usable later at night, could go upstairs and would never need tuning...
We had the same problem...no one wants old uprights. Ours went to the tip. (It wasn't great and wouldn't stay in tune, so no great loss really)
How far out is the tuning?
Download a guitar tuner on to your phone.
Play a note on the piano, one closest to A440 is probably the best choice there, let us know how far away it in from the A440.
The tuner should be able to tell you in "cents" and in hz, cents is probably easier to work with (There's 100 cents in a half tone ie, from A to Bb is 100 cents, etc etc.)
As people have mentioned though, just tune the trumpet, long as everything is in tune together is all that really matters. A440 is the modern standard, doesn't really have to be though. Might have issues playing along with things mind.
I was thinking that I’d need to pay someone to take it away, but I stuck an ad on Facebook (free to collect) and there was loads of interest, 3 or 4 serious enquirers that were trying to sort transport and it was collected within 18 hours of the advert being up.
Until recently you probably would have had to paid to get rid of one - I think we're arriving at the point where everyone that was going to get rid of a piano has gotten rid of it now (given not so long ago pretty much every home had a piano - so the ratio of people who want to get rid of a piano to people who want one (for free at least) is probably nearer to 1:1.
I had to work harder than I expected to find one when I needed one as a prop recently - ended up having to spend a whole £50 on a grand piano.
Sherwood Phoenix near me occasionally have uprights in that they give away for the cost of delivery only. They typically have around two hundred pianos in stock so they are a big dealer