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320,000 new cases in 2004 (TJ)
410,000 new cases in 2006 (TJ)
170,000 new cases in 2008 (avert.com)
Are you really calling that exponential growth?
clubber, this is pointless, let's say cyclists then. Cyclist are a contributory factor in road deaths so they are a Bad Thing. Magnitude to be ascertained
Yep, cyclists who make choices that cause crashes deliberately are a bad thing.
The CC knows that banning condoms will cause deaths. It is completely in their power (if not their egos) to avoid doing this.
No need to disaggregate the cyclists here clubber, you didn't with the CC.
CC contributes to death therefore is a bad thing
cyclists contribute to death therefore are bad thing
Couldn't watch the news today without wanting to blow chunks. Daily Mash to the rescue...
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/queen-to-have-lunch-with-insane-criminal-201009163093/
deliberate policy of the catholic church is responsible for deaths. That this policy will cause deaths is well known and indisputable. I doubt many cyclists deaths are the responsibility of deliberate policy.
TJ, you forgot about the epidemic and the data and the exponential growth
Cyclists are not an organisation with edicts and rules so your point fails.
Fine, now deal with the main issue
but you say that the CC contibutes to deaths, so it is a bad thing.
The CC also contributes to saving lives, so it is a good thing!
Oh no! this simplistic approach leads to cognitive conflict!!!!
Charlie. I merely gave up trying to correct your misunderstandings and deliberate distortions.
You have tuned yourself into an apologist for an organisation with blood on its hands - in the fdace of all teh evidence and expert opinion.
Mind the back door doesn't hit your ass on the way out TJ.
Still, feel free to come back and justify your guesses about epidemics and growth rates whenever you like.
and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back
an organisation with blood on its hands
Same could be said about the NHS couldn't it?
Its not my guesses. its the expert opinions of those wha actually work in the field.
and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back
And the relevance of this is?
Shouldn't today be a public holiday? I mean it's an important day after all? Everyone gets an extra day off and get paid too. No? 
Society has already sorted that for you Charlie.
You can save 100 people from being killed but murder one and you're a murderer. The church claims to be there for good. As such the good it does is implicit and it should cause harm. To do so knowingly is not therefore not acceptable.
Epidemic: The occurrence of more cases of a disease than would be expected in a community or region during a given time period. A sudden severe outbreak of a disease such as SARS. From the Greek "epi-", "upon" + "demos", "people or population" = "epidemos" = "upon the population." See also: Endemic; Pandemic.
[i]You can save 100 people from being killed but murder one and you're a murderer. The church claims to be there for good. As such the good it does is implicit and it should cause harm. To do so knowingly is not therefore not acceptable.[/i]
I'm glad that you accept that the church does good.
Epidemic: The occurrence of more cases of a disease than would be expected in a community or region during a given time period. A sudden severe outbreak of a disease such as SARS. From the Greek "epi-", "upon" + "demos", "people or population" = "epidemos" = "upon the population." See also: Endemic; Pandemic.
good...
now explain how it applies to Latin America, where the data shows that in fact the number of new cases per year is declining
Oh and don't forget to show the exponential rise too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515
/p>
Afterwards his spokesman Federico Lombardi said: "I think the Pope knows rather well what the Nazi ideology is".
Yeah I bet he does.
Here's an idea for the pope - perhaps 'aggressive atheism' would be a bit less popular if him and his mates stopped abusing kids then covering it up?
druidh - beat me to it!
I am glad that the pope visited edinburgh and glasgow today. I timed my journeys so that I was going out of edinburgh and he was coming in and going out of glasgow as he was going there. I have never seen roads so quiet.
[i]and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back[/i]
And the relevance of this is?
Really?
Catholicism causes catholics and (you say) HIV. So you would expect to see high incidence of them together, and low incidence of them together.
You don't. Why not?
Surrounded By Zulus - Member
I am glad that the pope visited edinburgh and glasgow today. I timed my journeys so that I was going out of edinburgh and he was coming in and going out of glasgow as he was going there. I have never seen roads so quiet.
Which makes you wonder....why is there so much traffic at other times? It's not like all the shops, schools and offices were shut.
Charlie- thats not what the data says.
On the avert site you keep refering to it refers to hiv in latin america as an epidemic.
You took two differnt data sets from two differnet sources with two different methodologies to try to make your point - a classic piece of distortion.
I'm glad that you accept that the church does good.
Of course it does. That's no excuse though. It actively chooses to do bad.
Really?
Catholicism causes catholics and (you say) HIV. So you would expect to see high incidence of them together, and low incidence of them together.
No I did not.
I said catholic doctrine on condom use reduces the distribution of condoms and thus increases HIV infection rates - this is simply indisputable.
to say catholcisim causes aids is stupid. To say that reducing the distribution of condoms increases infection trates is a proven fact.
druidh - MemberSurrounded By Zulus - Member
I am glad that the pope visited edinburgh and glasgow today. I timed my journeys so that I was going out of edinburgh and he was coming in and going out of glasgow as he was going there. I have never seen roads so quiet.Which makes you wonder....why is there so much traffic at other times? It's not like all the shops, schools and offices were shut.
Summer sales ending?
🙄
Is it just me, or does CharlieMungus sound awfully like a certain Mr SFB ?
Just as bloody irritating if it's not him.
1) But, analysing the data critically, and following your definitions, we can see that it is not cant we?
2)Still waiting to see the exponential growth.
3)Not sure what you mean by 'not what the data says'
I took data from too different sources because it is not possible to find all the data from the same source. Which data is it you don't believe and why?
Woody - Member
Is it just me, or does CharlieMungus sound awfully like a certain Mr SFB ?Just as bloody irritating if it's not him.
I thought it was just TJ with two logons
I said catholic doctrine on condom use reduces the distribution of condoms and thus increases HIV infection rates - this is simply indisputable.
If this simplistic model were the case, we would see the reduction of the distribution of condoms in catholic countries and a high incidence of HIV infection rates in those countries wouldn't we?
Woody, you don't need to read it if you find it irritating
Woody - MemberIs it just me, or does CharlieMungus sound awfully like a certain Mr SFB ?
Just as bloody irritating if it's not him.
Mr SFB does argue well but most just don't understanding him that's all. 😯
If this simplistic model were the case, we would see the reduction of the distribution of condoms in catholic countries and a high incidence of HIV infection rates in those countries wouldn't we?
Doesn't that depend on to what extent the people in different catholic countries listen to the pope's silly advice? Aren't African churches often much more hardline than in other areas?
druidh - MemberWoody - Member
Is it just me, or does CharlieMungus sound awfully like a certain Mr SFB ?Just as bloody irritating if it's not him.
I thought it was just TJ with two logons
That would be great - TJ and CharlieMungus is fact a Schizophrenic, in an attempt to have the world's most pointless argument with oneself.
I feel better for having found a rational explanation.
I try to miss your bits out but due to your prolific output it is rather difficult as the thread will lose it's context. As usual ?Simon your pedantry is mis-directing the focus and potential breadth of argument and ruining what may have been an interesting discussion.
Yes grum, you are right and that is my point.
African churches are more hardline, but few people are catholic in Africa. Lots of people in South America are catholic, but it seems that they 'suit up' because there is not so much HIV there. So, if the catholic church changed its teaching, it wouldn't really make that much difference to the incidence of HIV AIDS, because either folks are catholic and don't listen or because they aren't catholic. So even in areas where the catholic church has strong influence on govt. policy, Philippines and some of latin America, it has little effect on how they conduct their sex lives
Not Simon, sorry.
Pedantry? Nah.
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If people keep dipping their wicks without wearing socks with various partners they are bound to get whatever it may be sooner or later ... a probability game really. Simple. 🙄
I took data from too different sources because it is not possible to find all the data from the same source. Which data is it you don't believe and why?
Shows your ignorance. You need data collected with the same methodology to provide a meaningful comparison - very basic stuff.
"I said catholic doctrine on condom use reduces the distribution of condoms and thus increases HIV infection rates - this is simply indisputable."If this simplistic model were the case, we would see the reduction of the distribution of condoms in catholic countries and a high incidence of HIV infection rates in those countries wouldn't we?
Nope - other factors are at work. I tend to believe the analysis of experts in the field of HIV and epidemiology.
The catholic church applies pressure on governments and NGOs to attempt to prevent condoms being used in harm reduction. This clearly has a significant effect. condom usage is proven to reduce aids transmission. Therefore reducing condom usage increases aids transmission rates. This is simple and indisputable and accepted by experts in the field.
Old Benedict has ignored/forgotten the Catholic Churchs Concordat with the Nazi party...conveniently!
Level of education is missing from all this. Unfortunately so called 'moral' people to go around mis-educating, telling people that condoms are ineffective to people who know no better is disgraceful. Only the other day (monday or tuesday) on Newsnight or something similar a Catholic woman was going on about how condoms are porous so let HIV through! However people here, inlcuding the Catholics would probably have thought WTF.
I suddenly realised why I keep forgetting things. I have been so blonde lately its ridiculous.
It's soooo obvious. I'm just 'disordered'.
Yay!
😆