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Didn't see it as the choice between a night ride or an England game is a no brainer.
It would appear that the choice between watching Harry Maguire or feeding your gonads into a mincer is too.
80 million we paid for that donkey. Given the games we've got coming up I hope Harry is going to have some time off to go on holiday to Greece or something
How do you spell ‘shocking’?
Ahh, that’s it - ‘absolutely unmitigated dreadfulness’
Seriously WTF is going on with VAR? I'm not aggrieved because I know sometimes they go Liverpool's way but Pickford cleaned out VVD and no pen, not even a yellow card, and the 'offside' was just absolutely bonkers.
It's an interesting one. If VvD and Pickford had challenged for the ball at the same time, Pickford walks. Because VvD plays the play first, he is offside first so that offense stops the game. While normally tackling someone when the game is stopped is not allowed, in this case it is. It exposed a flaw in the rules, not the reffing.
The VAR is weird. It looks like it has used the part if Mane's arm above his armpit, which is iirc a change to the rules this year ,- that part not counting for handball.
The lack of VAR in the Man city Arsenal game where Walker tried to put his boot up the Arsenal player's nose in the box is more mystifying
The one on VVD can't be a penalty because it's after the game should have stopped for OS as cromololly said.
Not sure if they could give a card for dangerous play though which it fully deserved.
The Mane OS is a shocker but then there have been loads like that so far. Should be used for 'obvious' errors. Then again, Managers, pundits & half the fans can get stuffed because it's what they asked for with constant moaning about the odd bad decision.
Nice to see some more fluid play from us today. I know Pogba came on for the late goals but we are generally much better when he isn't playing. How Mata doesn't get more starts is beyond me, he is looking as sharp as ever in this setup.
The offside decision was mental. There was millimetres in it and he’s got his back to goal. So how on earth is he getting any kind of competitive advantage? And that’s what the offside rule is meant to be about
@kamakazie Totally agree about Pogba. I was relieved to see him on the bench. He just doesn’t deserve to start for the sake of the 4 games a season he actually bothers to turn up
He’s like Ozil. Lazy. And look what Artetta has done to him. Given him a reality intrusion
While normally tackling someone when the game is stopped is not allowed, in this case it is. It exposed a flaw in the rules, not the reffing.
Not really, laws cover this. The main offences are relevant while ball is in play, when it's out of play or play is stopped then the usual offences can't be committed*. So you can't commit a foul and give away a free kick when the ball's dead, however serious misconduct / violent conduct etc. eg: if a forward is played through but offside, then play effectively stops at the offside, any foul after is irrelevant as a foul. But if a chasing defender then takes him down a la Pickford, it's still violent conduct in the same way that if he'd punched him in an altercation after the ref has stopped play for a foul.
So in this case correct choice should have been offside and freekick to Everton, presumably taken by a sub goalie brought on to replace an outfield player sacrificed because Pickford was sent off.
I think he'll get away with it; there used to be a panel that could review mistaken red card offences (both ways) but I think that was scrapped when VAR came in because that effectively enabled it to be done in real time. I can't believe Oliver wasn't requested to have a look, and if he gets away with it over that technicality then it'll be wrong.
* The main time this seems to be ignored is when a player is shepherding a ball out of play and the opponent then shoves them over trying to win the ball, and it's unclear whether the ball had crossed the line before the foul. If a choice between freekick or throw in, the freekick seems to get given even if technically the ball may have gone out first, because a freekick's more valuable. Incidentally if it's a freekick/goalkick choice, the goalkick is usually given because that can 1/ be taken centrally and 2/ you can't be offside from a goal kick.
I don't really see VVD as having been offside anyway but I see the point regarding the rules.
Man U looked great today but their pen was ridiculously soft, especially to be a clear and obvious error.
But if a chasing defender then takes him down a la Pickford, it’s still violent conduct in the same way that if he’d punched him in an altercation after the ref has stopped play for a foul.
So in this case correct choice should have been offside and freekick to
Not quite, and that's the flaw in the law. It cannot be violent conduct because the ball is in play, it is not off the ball etc. It isn't serious foul play because the ball is not in play, the game ceased when VvD touched the ball, however the play didn't stop until the ref. blew his whistle. So you can't do Pickford for either. It's the Schrodinger's cat of football.
It cannot be violent conduct because the ball is in play, it is not off the ball etc
I see what you say there, there is a slight loophole. I suppose the loophole that covers the loophole could be argued that it's no longer the Ref's whistle that signals ball out of play, that can be retrospectively considered by the VAR system, and so at the point of the offside the ball is not in play and so now Pickford's no longer challenging for the ball because effectively there is no ball? Even though he thought there was.
Although in reality it's covered by Law 18, and he should have gone.
I like Schroedinger's law.
I also like the cricket equivalent, a batsman is plumb lbw in front but the umpire's not sure if he got a tiny edge on the ball first so he can't give it. But the ball's popped up and a fielder catches it; however he's not sure whether he hit it so he can't give him out caught either. He must be out somehow but you can't be 100% sure of either, and benefit of the doubt must go to the batsman? So there's a Schroedinger's nick, you can either hit it, not hit it, or simultaneously hit it AND not hit it.
It cannot be violent conduct because the ball is in play, it is not off the ball etc. It isn’t serious foul play because the ball is not in play, the game ceased when VvD touched the ball, however the play didn’t stop until the ref. blew his whistle.
So the ball is simultaneously in play and not in play? I'd like to hear quantum superposition used as a defence against red cards more often TBH.
So, if I am to get this right, these two rules have different definitions of when play ends, for the (1st) foul play rule play ends at the first offence ie the offside. and for the (2nd) violent conduct play ends when the ref blows his whistle?
The trouble with that is that it would surely crop up all the time. Maybe it is technically correct but normally the ref deals with it in a common sense manner and ignores the loophole, this sounds to me that they have looked for a loophole to explain away bad refereeing rather than apply what normally happens.
That's law 18 (there is no real law 18, it's ref speak for 'use common sense') Trouble is that then players and pundits moan about consistency, which means applying laws rigidly.
I don't think anyone is using quantum superposition to explain the decision IRL, only on here for fun BTW. IRL I think everyone just thinks it was shit refereeing by Oliver and VAR.
So, if I am to get this right, these two rules have different definitions of when play ends, for the (1st) foul play rule play ends at the first offence ie the offside. and for the (2nd) violent conduct play ends when the ref blows his whistle?
Pretty much. Although technically, the game is stopped when the official decides it is, not when they indicate it is. That's how they are able to bring the play back to the first foul/play the advantage. Obviously fairness and common sense mean they would not penalize a player for e.g kicking the ball away until after they have blown the whistle and allowed for a player who was already in the act of kicking it etc.
This was all created when they changed the offside, to delay the moment of offence until the player actually plays or challenges for the ball. You can't penalize the defender for going into the challenge with an attacker who is offside because he isn't offside until he goes into the challenge and the defender has no way if Knowing if the offside will be called. There is a specific exemption written into the LOG. You'll note they use the very generic 'offence'. So technically you could punch him in the face, bum him/hammer frozen sausages into him but as long as he was offside you shouldn't be done for violent conduct. That will change soon I expect, or they'll modify it via advice to referees.
• where an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already
playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball,
the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
Oof! Pick that one out!
Blimey!! Talk about a game of two halves!
Contender for goal of the season right there! An absolute missile! 😳
Looks like Pickford may have opened up the title race.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54590771
Eat my goal! Another fairly crazy game, Spurs were rampant at the start.
They've done some tests and VVD potentially out for most of the season from Pickford's assault. Sounds like several months at least. 🙁
Edit: beaten to it
I know someone who did their ACL and the amount of physio he was doing was insane. 4-5 hours a day for weeks and weeks. Crazy that Pickford gets away scot free for inflicting that on someone
Big Virgil being out for a good while is massive for Liverpool. He’s the best defender in the premiership by a mile.
I still can’t believe Pickford got away without even a card. It was an absolutely horrendous challenge
I can't believe the fuss that's been made of it to be honest, its a bad tackle, but there have been many worse, it isn't an assault and anyone using that word to describe it needs to get a grip. If that is assault, the Mane tackle on Ederson a couple of seasons ago was attempted murder.
That was very spursy of Spurs.
How Loris got his fingertips on that is beyond me. How his fingertips are still attached is also a mystery. That had almost as much pace as Roberto Carlos' 40 yard free kick.
Ok so I'll run up to you on the street and do that MSP and you'll be fine with it presumably? Seeing as the ball was nowhere to be seen it definitely wasn't a tackle.
If that is assault, the Mane tackle on Ederson a couple of seasons ago was attempted murder.
Dictionary definition of whataboutery. Mane's was very dangerous but a genuine attempt to play the ball. He also got sent off for it.
Many worse that didn't even result in a foul or yellow card? Citation needed
- yet (that well known goalkeeping expert) Graeme Souness reckons he went with his wrong hand and 'would be a bit disappointed with his goalkeeper for getting beaten from there'
Dictionary definition of comparison for Liverpool fans claims as to what is a red card and what isn't.
Eh? I don't even understand the point you are trying to make.
I'm assuming it's that you are trying to compare two completely different incidents years apart and using that to try and claim that Liverpool fans are dicks and it's ok to injure their players? Did I get it right?
We also greatly enjoyed Graeme Sounesses goalkeeping masterclass.
I don’t think any keeper in the world could have stopped that.
Apart from Graeme Souness, apparently
Souness is an arrogant bastard, always has been. However, I would say that the keeper had a very good starting position, went with his wrong hand and the fact he got a hand to it, well mibbe if he'd gone with his left hand he could've kept it out?. At that stage of the game, in those circumstances, you'd be more disappointed that a midfielder didn't get to Lanzini, or striker didn't backtrack.
That said, there's no way I'd asy you could EXPECT your keeper to save that, exceptional strike.
no, top hand always in that situation. Try it, lean over at 45 degrees with top arm stretched and see if your bottom arm can reach as far. Your head's in the way.
It was astonishing to even get fingers on it, then it just hit the underside and bounced down about 2 ft over the line. A few millimetres further and it would have bounced out and been an astounding save.
Lastly - Lloris is astonishingly quick and agile, but he's only 6'2". A taller keeper may have had a better chance.
I know you were a keeper, so I'll take your word for it!
Are you trying to say that you know more on this subject than Graeme Souness?
As for height, I watched the last Liverpool derby that had a crowd. The Liverpool fans were all chanting at Jordan Pickford
He can't reach up to the crossbar
He can't reach up to the crossbar
He can't reach up to the crossbar
He's only got little arms
If you remember, he didn't have the best of games that day. He actually pulled off a couple of amazing saves on Saturday
He did, even if he shouldn't have been on the pitch.
De Gea's save against NUFC was pretty good too, good stop but scooping it away from the follow up really saved the goal
There is a poll on the BBC for craziest game of the season, it doesn't even include the Leeds Man city match which just underlines what a crazy season we are in so far, I guess for all the mad football in that game it didn't have the score line to match the others.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/54594216
Could the cup competitions be even more unpredictable?
i mean it's the mauling of LfC 7-2 isn't it. never in a million years could that have been predicted. Football, isn't it. hmm?
Also, when will we just admit that VAR is rubbish. it was an experiment, it didn't work, now take it out the back and give it a kicking
The 7-2 came right on the back of our 6-1 demolition by Spurs. It's fair to say that afternoon was a bit of a rollercoaster. 2 insane games, one after the other. I swore at the telly a lot during both games but for very different reasons 😀
Also, when will we just admit that VAR is rubbish. it was an experiment, it didn’t work, now take it out the back and give it a kicking
During last season we were told that it would settle down. It hasn't. Quite the reverse. Now they've added the bonkers handball rule in, you're getting those nonsensical decisions given as well as the inexplicable offsides
Chatted to my liverpool loving collegue about this today. He reckoned that it is at least two charges of ABH & GBH should be brought against Pickford along with a postponement of the premier league until Liverpool are reinstated to full strength. He reckoned 8 months should do it. Its only fair.....
I watched Liverpool play Man utd last season and VVD and Fabinho both took out that young lad James. They didnt just hurt him. They knocked him into next week and the lad looked punch drunk when he had to come off. It was a professional player knowing exactly what he was doing to inflict pain on another. I commented what goes around comes around to my Liverpool supporting son. Pickfords was a bad challenge, worthy of a red but was not nasty.
I just watched them again. Fabinho one looks nasty. VVD one James runs into him. They both got the ball before James though.
You'd have to have some serious ABL specs on to claim that somehow justifies what happened to him yesterday. Maybe it wasn't nasty but it was absolutely nowhere near the ball so reckless in the extreme.
I was also taught two wrongs don't make a right.
VVD knew exactly what he was doing. TBH it was just an example of them not being whiter than white but I just remembered how the two of them nearly rendered that lad unconscious.
No specs on for this, I am a spurs supporter so have no gripes either way. No justification for what happened yesterday other than to say Pickfords challenge, although reckless was no different to the kind of goalkeeping challenges we see from the like of kasper schmichael and others on regular basis. The keepers are taught to come out and spread. This time it went wrong and VVD leg got caught in a scissor action but I do not believe it had a any major intent.
Try having a conversation with Roy Keane about two wrongs don't make a right.
Also, when will we just admit that VAR is rubbish. it was an experiment, it didn’t work, now take it out the back and give it a kicking
VAR should stay but the guidance to the ref has to change. Should only be used to overturn clear & obvious errors. Clear being those you can spot on a slomo and confirm with a single line. Not by drawing 2 lines that are so close to each other that their placement and parallelism to the touch lines are bigger margins of error than the offside itself.
Nah VAR should go. We just have to accept human error is a part of football and refs will sometimes make mistakes. An assistant referee getting an offside wrong because a striker’s toe is half an inch ahead of of a defender is the same as said striker mis-kicking the ball in front of an open net.
Players make mistakes literally all the time, it’s the reason why goals happen, why excitement and the flow of the game is teh Awsumz so why do we expect officials to be absolutely flawless all the time? VAR is an attempt to make that happen, and the replays, delays, rewinds and decisions which make no sense – even to those who are on the right end of them.
“If you’re going into every game with an existential dread of some faceless technology, there’s something really very wrong with it.”
Not being able to celebrate because VAR may rule it out is ruining it. Keep goal line tech, ditch the rest.
VAR was sold to everyone as a way of rectifying the real howlers, but what we’ve ended up with is every decision being over analysed. There’s no way they are ever going to scrap it, so we’re going to have to live with it.
In terms of offside they should take away their ability to draw lines and it should be is the on field decision clearly wrong? If not, it stays as it is A bit like umpires call in cricket. It would also speed up the decision making process which often takes a good few minutes and is really sucking the life out of the game.
Yeah the lines are silly and I’m not convinced they’re actually that accurate (I have no evidence for this!).
VVD gives Liverpool a big problem especially with Allison out. I think Liverpool will miss him more than City did Laporte last season. Maybe Klopp will go out all attack like they were a couple of seasons ago when Salah scored 40 odd.
COVID seems to have done VAR a favour, imagine the crowd during the review and verdict on some of those events decisions.
If they'd just used it to stop all the bloody diving and simulation, it would be the greatest step forward in the game since the forward pass.
It's about the one thing they don't use it for.
I don't mind it being used for offside and so on. I actually think it's the rules themselves they have buggered up, not the VAR
With cricket you can generally hear the umpires discussing the footage and decision making process. I feel like this would go a long way to restoring some credibility to VAR - as long as their reasoning was sound I suppose.