[Closed] OT: What dog for a young family?

have you thought of a Spaniel?? Spring/cocker

some say they are nuts but depends on training.

My family have had labs for past 20 years and they're brilliant, why do you think there are so many about?

Look as them as Spesh dogs - good but everyone has one.

Have friends who have German Shepards and they are lovely too, daft as brushes and great with kids - again down to training. Just remember they're big dogs.

Exercise 5 days a week??

What about the other 2??

Get a cat.

Or if you absolutely must - spaniels seem quite nice

edit- valleydaddy beat me to it

Was going to say Greyhound till I read the guard-dog bit 😕

Whippet. Great with kids. They sleep loads inside but outside will love (paw friendly) twenty mile rides!

A little needy though, mine always wants to be on my lap!

EDIT Just read guard dog bit too, hmm maybe not then.

I was in exactly the same place as you dude - 2 kids 3 & 5 and wanted a dog. I was into the Bull breeds (Staffy etc) and thought that Labs were a bit boring. So we have a 12 wk Black Lab called Mojo.

Not too small, good with Kids and a guard? Sounds like a Rottweiler would suit, but be aware that any large dog would be able to have tons of exercise until 1yr - 18mths old (dysplasia).

I would have had a Rotty in a shot, but wanted experience in training and owning a dog before that challenge!

try and find a bread of do that can pick up it's own shit

I was under the impression that GSDs were inclined to attach themselves very loyally to one person? (May be completely wrong though, haven't read up on it).

We've got a Lab and a Jack Russell. The Jack Russell is brilliant and I would definitely recommend him as a family pet. Small, clean, clever, very defensive of the house and family. Some people reckon they're snappy. We had ours from about 8 weeks old, when the kids were 1 and 7, and he only had to be taught once that he cannot growl at the kids. Cracking little dog, peanuts to run as well.

A Lab for me every time, monty's snoring at the side of the bed right now is testament to an old friend.

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They are amazing animals and just get on with what's best in life................... eating , drinking and getting out

Springer spaniel 🙂

Not boring, like exercise, not too small, great with kids and handy as a guard dog...

I give you 'The Boxer'

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Kobe, Oz and Chyna.

you should really have called this thread 'tell me what breed you have and convince me to get one' 😀

Got a 12 year old lab, brilliant with the kids, impressive bark for strangers, like previous post I wanted a rotti but wife said no, so. now have a 9 month old staffie as well, magic dog, looks hard as nails but is a total softy, great with the kids, but a rubbish guard dog, just wants to lick people to death!! Hard to pick just one as they're both the bees knees, the staffie just nudges it I think, everyone knows labs are ace but everyone is totaly surprised how great staffies are once they get to know one that hasn't been raised by a thug to be nasty, blame the owners not the dog, sorry I'll get off my soap box now!
PJ.

We have 2 collies - my favourite dogs, but if I had small children, I'd be tempted to go for a Lab as they have such dependable tempraments. You also get the bonus of a cracking trail dog in about a year's time.

If you do get a pup, read up about training and diet beforehand - it's amazing the people you meet who are playing catchup trying to figure out why their dog's not working properly. Plan out socialisation, house training etc. I'd recommend a crate from the start, and insist the kids don't disturb the dog when they're in the crate - gives the dog a chill out zone if he/she gets peopled out.

2nd vote for a Boxer, we have our 1st baby due any day and everyone keeps telling us boxers are great family pets, so hoping ours will get on just fine with baby.

I hear great things about Rhodesian Ridgebacks. As long as they are trained properly and socialised well, they are a great loyal dog that will love your family. and as a bonus if anyone broke into your house its fair to say they would deal with them

Why not get a mongrel puppy from a rescue place? As has been pointed out on the thread already, it's the owner that makes the dog, not the breed.

Dogs I had as a child were a springer (Welsh), a goldie and a boxer. Would recommend any of them without hesitation.

Dogs that I gather would be pretty good with children but have no direct experience of would be English bull terrier, Staffy and some of the giant breeds (English mastiff etc) which would sort out your guarding requirements.

Dogs I'd have reservations about with children: beagles, dachsunds, small terriers (Jack Russells, Westies) and some of the hunting breeds like GSPs.

rough collie - so calm and very smart, but need a lot of tlc due to it's coat
tibetan mastiff - the original dog. big and friendly and no lanolin in the fur so great for allergy sufferers.
labrador - there is a reason they are so popular
Irish setter
english pointer

I could go on and on.

Working cocker for me. Every lab I've ever known seems to end up fat and useless too early in it's life. A good riding mate has one and as soon as it was castrated it piled the weight on - and he lives in a VERY active family.
In contrast you ralet see an overwieght spaniel. One of mine is now 15 and she's as slim now as she was 8 years ago (although a bit blind and a bit deaf 🙁 )

Dalmatian, good bark, good temperament and an excellent trail dog. Miles and miles of running in them even at 9 or 10 years old. You'll need to walk 2 hours a day though to stop boredom.

Got an American breed Chockie lab and he is brilliant fun. Super friendly, loves life, and great with kids.

another vote for a lab, they are far from boring. Common maybe but boring definately not
Just keep the weight of them, I see so many overweight labs its saddening
2nd - boxer
avoid any of those annoying little yappy breeds

Just keep the weight of them, I see so many overweight labs its saddening

I know, i go trail running with my lab and i come across fellow lab owners who stop and say hello and they almost accuse me of keeping him too thin!! The fact that he doesn't have a belly dragging on the ground and can come trail running with me for 10km doesn't make him too thin!!!

We had mongrels as kids, and my first dog was a mongrel. The wife chose this one, I had reservations myself; but he is one top dog.

Very loyal, a bit crazy (but not a handful, and controllable with walks and food amount/type), has no problem on been left alone, very fit and will run for ever (good with the bikes as he's always 'checking-in') and very good with kids.

Downsides, loves water (any variety...) and takes an age to dry.

He lives outside when we are not around (we have a large 'cage' which has an insulated kennel inside it), and the neighbours take him for walks during the day.

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BR: said it before and I'll say it again..... lovely looking dog 🙂

I've got three kids and two golden retreivers. They are very good with kids but can be a bit boisterous. max and Sam have had my wee girl on her ar5e on many an occasion. Need a bit of exercise but not too much. I don't that I'd want them as a guard dog but when the doorbell rings they have a deep bark which would be quite off-putting I think.

Here's Max:
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and here's Sam:

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I'm a GSD fan - I've ended up with three (bought the first from a breeder, and the other two were rescues).

GSD's can make great family dogs, one advantage of them is that they are relatively easy to train. There are so many needing homes though:

[url= http://www.germanshepherdrescue.co.uk/ ]German Shepherd Resce[/url]
[url= http://s10.zetaboards.com/biggsd/index/ ]Biggsd[/url]

And my three:

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the two youngest out in the local hills (it was too much for the old boy)

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Sounds like you really don't have much idea about dogs so please please get advice from a vet before you decide anything as there are lots of different considerations to take into account eg. do you have a garden, how big is the house, have you considered the cost, are you aware how much mess they make with hairs, muddy paws etc., what about the dog when you go away on holiday or for the weekend ?

Rescue places such as Dogs Trust will also be able to give you good advice.

Despite all I've said above, I wouldn't be without my mutts and once you choose one it is most definitely part of the family. Oh, and whatever you get [b]will[/b] need exercised 7 days a week and once a day as a very minimum, even small breeds.

My 2 'boring labs' at about 4 months, nearly 4 years old now and NOT fat. They are also about to come out with me on the bike so I'll try and post another pic to confirm you will not need to give up your cheeky daytime rides 😀

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Greyhounds. Thick as mince, happy to sleep all day, great with kids, fast as ****.

Spaniels are ace.

We have a cocker at the moment and she is gorgeous. Excellent temperment with the kids, intelligent, trainable (but must be trtained).

Not likely to fully fill the gaurd dog requirements, but she will bark like mad at any stranger that turns up at the house - until reassured by us that the visitor is ok.

Always wanted a springer, but would be a bit too large and energetic for our current lifestyle. Boxers are great but they slobber everywhere. Uncle always had labs or retrievers - lab much more even tempered than a retriever. Setters are more loony than spaniels. GSDs great but you need to pick and train carefully. Wonderful dog if you get a good one.

Oh yeah and the goldies will run on a bike ride no problem.

Wow thanks everyone

Dont panic this is not something we are rushing into

Were lucky to have a garden for a hound and it will be exercised every morning
Its just that on 2 days per week it will be alone from 9 till 4
The rest of the time it will get a good walk before and probably after work as well

Labs still look the 'safe' option but still thinking about GSD
Will a lab/retriever really do 30km off road?? Seems a tall order

Keep 'em coming!

Had a retriever as a kid growing up, great dogs but they do need walking a couple of times a day (not just let out into the garden). Couple of times a week being left alone isn't ideal but shouldn't be much of a problem. I wouldn't have thought 30km off-road was viable though, not without sending it to an early grave. You also have to be careful teaching your kids about dogs to, any dog regardless of breed can turn nasty if it's teased and abused (even if innocently by a child).

You don't fancy a Westie do you?
If you're anywhere near South Manchester, I'll be accidentlaly losing* off of it's lead whilst out walking it, a four year old dog this evening.

*possibly

barca- shirley' not serious?

I wouldnt risk mine (Lab) with 30k off road, not at a sustained pace or without plenty of water available (they dont know how to use a camelback!)
Not even before she snapped her cruciate climbing Snowdon and got arthritus (cost us £2.2k and counting in operations and titanium plates in her leg)
Still for all her clumsiness and costly health problems we wouldnt be without her
Moral of the story - make sure you take out insurance (and get them microchipped)
Cost wise - factor in £20-30 a month insurance, £30 a month food, worming tablets, flea treatments etc, minimum of £50-75 a year vets bills

If you away even only 2 days a week for more than 4 hours at a time a rescue from the RSPCA is out - our local branch won't even let you have a rabbit if it is ever lilkely to be home alone for more than 4 hours!!
So basically they will give animals to the unemployed who cant afford to care for them but not if you have even a part time job! - No wonder the branch is threatened with closure cause of lack of funds

Get a Mongrel. No inbreeding problems there unless you must have a 'brand'* dog.

I wouldnt have a Lab, sorry. I've experienced one turn (apperently they can have a temper- though you wouldnt think it). Plus do you really want a lively dog (with weight behind it) running around your house?

If a branded-dog isnt high on the list I'd consider a Greyhound. The ones I've met have such beautiful temperaments.

*I call them this as they are essential 'posh' choices arent they? I own A Westie but he does have certain breed-traits that I dont like.

My cocker does 13 quick miles no problem, but only once a week - his paws suffer otherwise.

any dog can 'turn' Hora, just like any human can 'turn' alot of it comes down to their upbringing and training and even then whilst domesticated it is still essentially descended from a wild pack animal so will always have that nature buried somewhere within
And at least with a 'brand' over a rescue you know the history and can instill some training and control their behaviour from day one (not condoning getting a rescue dog but if there are small children around I would want that extra level of confidence)

I wouldnt say they are any more lively than some other dogs either, and some of the other suggestions are much larger. True they can be a bit skittish at times, but again any dog can

If you do end up getting a lab though - females are smaller and [i]supposedly[/i] also less dependant

Golden retrievers! Or Flat-coat Retrievers. Great with kids, I've got 3 and as long as you train dogs and kids all will be well. Just get over the first 2 years of mental madness...... Flat-coats also like bike trails!

Get this weekend's Guardian guide to pets. Has some summaries of the most popular dogs (all of those mentioned above.

I grew up with dogs (several black labs, one golden retriever puppy and one jack russell - the latter killed the retriever), though would never have one as an adult, as I don't have the time to exercise one, nor the inclination to incur the hassle.

It does, however, sound like a Rottweiler is what you're after.

Most breeds of dogs are fine, as long as you put in the training! It's all about the training and don't quit the training when you think you've got it nailed.

Dog training is mainly for the owners, its teaching you how to communicate with your dog. Our dog is amazing in the right hands, give her to some numpty and she won't do a thing, just look at you as if you're crazy!

Kids will love Working Cockers, they may love it a little too much, cuddly size. I have 2 Springers, great fun, but a lot of training is needed, age 4 and still training.

If I was going to get a pedigree, I'd go for a Boxer.
We grew up with one & she was great.....only issue being I think they have weak digestive systems....ours had to have 2 operations as a result (too young at the time to remember the ins & outs).
Oh, and when ours passed wind it was like an accident in a stink bomb factory.....even she used to leave the room!

Otherwise, I'd go for a mutt - generally hardier than pedigrees I think?

Back now - still building up distance with them following the bike. They were knackered enough after a few miles to rest and let me get a couple of pics 😆
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Woody, are they off the same litter? Mine are and they were a b*gger to train. eventually resorted to taking them out separately for training.

Brother and sister. I picked the biggest bitch (story of my life 😥 ) and second smallest dog and they match pretty well.

They were 'interesting' to train and it distressed them so much to be separated that I had to persevere with them together. Took much longer than a one-to-one but now, one usually obeys and the other follows. Strangely, either can be the obedient one at any given time.

Yeah, I've got that issue as well. Max is well behaved and chilled in the house and Sam is a bit nore highly strung. Out of doors Max is away chasing squirrels and rabbits most of the time and Sam normally pads along beside me.

Greyhounds. Thick as mince, happy to sleep all day, great with kids, fast as ****.

Or lurcher. Lurchers are crosses of Greyhounds or Whippets (or other sighthounds with other types of dogs like collies. Mines 3/8 grehound, 1/4 whippet, 1/8 bearded collie, 1/8 border collie and 1/8 Bedlington Terrier. Not too clever like collies, but easy too train and fast as ****. Useless as a gaurd dog but if you get a big one thats got deerhound blood in it it will scare burglers just by standing up! Sightounds are very placid dogs as long as given a good sprint about twice a day. No inherited problems and much cheaper than some inbred pedigree dog.

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My lab - Poppie
6 years old
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has over £2k of titanium in her leg (snapped cruciate ligament few years ago, we took her up Snowdon not long after not realising what she had done she made it up and down but was lame for a days after hence us realising there was a serious problem)
She is the softest thing in the world, will let you do anything to her and just sit there and take it, before getting her own back on you with a huge face lick and a stinky fart when your not looking

(and she might be pedigree but no inbreeding here - both parents where working gun/field dogs)

she might be pedigree but no inbreeding here

er, I think you have missed the point of breeds

I personally would look in the paper and find a crossbreed with a couple of the breeds that would suit my lifestyle, the best of both worlds. You also get reduction in any breed specific health problems. I have a lab/mini-poodle, who gets pretty tired after only about 4 miles poor love! I usually stick to rollerblading or just walking with her. Probably a collie/lab would be perfect for mtbiking. Keep an eye on their paws even the tough ones hurt their paws (my dog has some boots :lol:). As I think someone said don't give them much exercise until they are fully developed. Best of Luck with your dog!

iain 1775: In a bizarre coincidence my dog, called poppy, also limps after strenuous exercise. How did the vets pick up your poppies injury?
As for the OP: Get a labradoodle, aside from the limp she's a great family dog. She's still a puppy here, need to upload some more up to date photos.
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er, I think you have missed the point of breeds

no I appreciate exactly what you are suggesting, that labs being a relatively new breed (1600's) as opposed to sighthounds (6000 years) are more likely to inherit problems, this is probably true

Sightounds are very placid dogs No inherited problems and much cheaper than some inbred pedigree dog.

But I meant it in the sense of a breeder that breeds for profit mating two closely related dogs - mother/son, father/daughter or sibling/sibling in order to produce dogs of similar characteristics / temperment etc

"the mating of individuals more closely related than the average of the population from which they come."
Malcolm B. Willis BSc (Dunelm, 1956) PhD (Edin. 1960)

Mine came from two completely unrelated working dogs (unrelated in as far as can be traced back 5 generations) and it was the first (and last) time the bitch had been bred.

You see alot of labs that look washed out with sunken eyes - the result of over bred stock from a limited gene pool

I say BOXER.

I have 2 kids 6 and 8 which adore our 2 boxers and play endlessly together.

Boxers are fun , athletic , full of personality, really love interacting with the family especially my son who they seem to regard as there best buddy. They are also very loyal,quite robust and daft as brushes all their life up until old age.

Get one you will never regret it.

Lactic
When she first did it (she jumped down from a wall stile and landed funny) she hobbled around for a bit but appeared to run it off and didnt seem to be in any pain
She was fine for a while but seemed very stiff and used to hold her leg up after she had been lying down or sleeping
SHe always seemed to just shrug it off so we didnt think it was anything serious. After going away for the weekend she became quite lame and the stiffness and limping became more pronounced and lasted longer, she also seemed in pain this time
We took her to the vets who kept her in, and x rayed her, they did some keyhole investigations and operated to pin her ligament together with titanium plates
Total cost was over £2k but fortunately we have insurance who paid out the lot no questions (petplan, our premium hasnt really increased much over 6 years despite having made a significant claim nearly every year - she is quite accident prone!)
As a result partly of the operation but mainly because it went untreated for so long she now has arthritus in that leg so occasionally (mainly during cold spells or heavy exercise) she will still limp but again generally walks it off after 5 mins. It doesnt seem to affect her too much fortunately and we have some tablets but we try not to give her them too often

Cheers iain. Our poppy had a similar injury pattern and has the same intermittent lameness. Has seen a couple of vets so far with no definitive diagnosis but with normal xrays a ligamentois injury seems most likely. Hopefully she is going to be scanned soon at Bristol vet school.

My sister and neice both have labradoodles and they are mental. I don't think they'd be especially suitable for kids? My sister has two of the most placid rought collies your ever likely to come across and the 'doodle has taken on none of their personality, and she seems pretty difficult to train. Lactic, your dog does look pretty cool though.

algarvebairn:-Mental dogs and kids are often a good mix. Loads of energy, love attention and never get bored or tired. Our two have grown up together and, if anything, poppy is over protective, growling at strangers if they come near my daughter.
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Useless as a guard dog but if you get a big one thats got deerhound blood in it it will scare burglers just by standing up!

Cue Ted:

He keeps airborne invaders at bay:
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There isn't a frizbee in the land that can get past him:
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Seaweed rarely sneaks up on us at the beach:
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He's got a very impressive bark, but he's a total chicken. He scares the crap out of the pizza man though, but only ever stands wagging his tail while I pay. (He's delivering food after all, Ted's second favourite hobby.) Despite ted's benevolence the man repeatedly asks me to 'keep the dog away'. I'm making an assumption that the delivery man is a muslim, and the Quran teaches that dogs are 'unclean', except the saluki. Ted has saluki blood in his breeding and I have considered telling the chap that he could conceivably stroke a part of Ted's ear, or perhaps his tail, and not have to perform purification, but it's far more complicated than I want to make a pizza transaction! 😆

Rhodesian Ridgeback

Developed in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) and South Africa back in the 16th century, this breed is also known as the African Lion Hound. These silent pack hunters were bred by European settlers to track down a lion, or other game, then corner it and or lure it into shooting range. So these dogs were originally bred for their courage, agility, endurance and instincts.

Though not all ridgebacks are born with ridges, the breed is named after a ridge of backward growing hair that runs along their back. This is characteristic of the Hottentot hunting dog. This semi-wild African breed was interbred with imported mastiffs, bloodhounds, pointers and greyhounds. Great danes and bulldogs may also have been in the mix. The native Hottentot dogs may have originated from, or be related to, the Thai ridgeback. All of these breeds produced a powerful hunting dog, that could withstand hot days, freezing nights, require little water and would guard the property at night. The breed is now very common in South Africa.

As a sight and scent hound, ridgebacks have a very high prey drive. These independent dogs are always alert for movement and willing to track and chase potential prey. Even when you are yelling for them to return. And boy, can they run fast. Something to keep in mind for owners who live near busy roads. Some have been know to run part way up a tree after a squirrel.

Lure coursing is a good activity for your ridgeback. This is where several dogs chase a string pulled lure across a field.

Ridgebacks are intelligent and will find ways to amuse themselves if not kept busy. So not a good breed to leave alone in the house or yard for an extended period. Avid gardeners may also want to think twice about having a ridgeback. Despite their independence, they prefer to be close to their owners around the house.

Ridgebacks learn very fast and are good problem solvers. However, they have short attention spans when it comes to activities like training. Tracking is sport, while obedience is too much like work.

Positive reinforcement is your only chance at success when it comes to training a ridgeback. These clever dogs have a long memory when it comes to harsh treatment. Not all owners can cope with their stubborn streak. Ample amounts of exercise cures most problems as a tired ridgeback is a good ridgeback.

Ideally, these strong and active dogs need a huge yard (with a very tall fence) or an acreage to run around and explore. They also need daily walks and runs. However, they are mostly docile inside the house and mature into very calm dogs. Please note: they love comfort and will take over beds and couches unless trained otherwise.

According to the book 'Your Family Dog' by Maxwell Riddle, actor Errol Flynn helped popularize the breed in the United States. They were recognized by the American Kennel Club in 1955, but are still fairly uncommon.

Pups may be born with dermoid sinus, a cyst that needs early surgical removal. Hip dysplasia and elbow problems can develop, though incidences are lower than many other breeds. Thyroid disorders and cataracts are also known issues. Due to their hanging ears, it's not uncommon for ridgebacks to develop ear infections.
With minimal fat reserves, ridgebacks are also very sensitive to medications, anesthesia and chemicals such as flea powder.

Many can and will eat anything, in a bowl, on the floor and even on a counter. They are also clever enough to get into kitchen cupboards.

Due to their love of food, and endless appetites, you must watch their weight. A percentage have allergies to food and or environmental.

They are known for their loyalty, often targeting one member of the household. They are also very willing to please. Unless there's a bunny to chase. Otherwise, they are a great companion.

Ridgebacks are generally good watch dogs, though not active barkers unless bored. So if your well adjusted ridgeback does bark, it's a good idea to check out the disturbance. Their biting power, even as pups, is comparable to a Doberman Pinscher, and their teeth are quite sharp. Mostly reserved with strangers.

Their undomesticated heritage can surface in quirky habits like greeting you with a butt sniff. And despite protests, they don't always clue in that butt sniffing humans is inappropriate behavior.

Color: Either buff, to gold or red wheaten with a black face, ears and nails. OR liver colored. Both colors may have white on their chest or toes.
Their short, dense, sleek coat requires minimal grooming. They are generally very clean dogs with little or no odor. Chest and toes may have some white fur.

Skull is flat and broad. Eyes are quite wide apart and match the color of their wheaten fur. Muzzle is black, wheaten or liver colored. Breed standards state...When the ears are brought forward in an alert position, the skin is furrowed with expressive wrinkles on the backskull between the ears and above and between the eyes...

Pups weigh around a pound at birth.

Need socializing as pups to accept other dogs and cats. Naturally gregarious with other family dogs.

Shoulder Height: From 24 to 27 inches (61 to 68.6 centimeters).
Weight ranges from 65 to 90 pounds (29.5 to 41 kilograms), though some have now been bred over 100 pounds (45.5 kg).

Feet are webbed for walking on African sand.

Females are slightly smaller.

Life span: up to 12 years, though some have lived to 16.

Lactic. Actually you might be right there. My two goldies are a bit mental and the kids love them. Theyve had Erin on her ar5e a couple of times but she doesn't seem to give a stuff. Funny, your dog looks just like my neice's Daisy and your little girl looks just like hers as well.

Goon

Excellent pics (and great dog), especially the airbourne frisbee one. What camera set-up did you use ?

Thanks Woody. Those were shot on a D50 and D3000, with Sigma lenses. I find for shooting dogs in action you need to have a shutter speed of 1/800 or faster.

bigbloke - Member
I say BOXER.

I have 2 kids 6 and 8 which adore our 2 boxers and play endlessly together.

Boxers are fun , athletic , full of personality, really love interacting with the family especially my son who they seem to regard as there best buddy. They are also very loyal,quite robust and daft as brushes all their life up until old age.

Get one you will never regret it.

Lost our boxer on 22nd Oct and he was everybodys best mate in our house, he was more human than half the people i know, and was everything you quote and more! Always happy to see you, daft but extremely intelligent, and will defend its family to the hilt!
Boxers generally love most dogs that are smaller than themselves but are wary of larger breeds!

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Lurcher or a Ridgeback. The Ridgeback obviously a bit better as a guard dog. Watching this pair run together takes my breath away. The lurcher is faster but not by as much as you would think. Both are so sloppy with kids it's unreal.

Only other point I'd make is that not all dogs are as the breed is supposed to be, so spend some time with a prospective puppy before handing over the cash. You'll usually get a sense of temprement & whether that particular dog is good natured or not. Personally I'd say go for a flat coat retriever, they're the nicest looking dogs & I've never met a bad natured one. The books say they're bouncy & always need to be the centre of attention, but all the ones I've seen have been more placid than our dog which is a lab/golden cross. She doesn't really follow the description - she's a bit of a mixture of stubborn & nervous. Not nervous in a nasty sense, just that she'll see how far she can push it until you tell her off & then cower as if someone's hit her! You might wonder why we didn't get a flat coat? Well, we saved up for one, and then the car died. The repair wiped out the savings & then we got offered this one for free.

Those were shot on a D50 and D3000, with Sigma lenses.