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This is because I want to live in a country that looks after the most vulnerable people and does not saddle the young with huge debts just so that they can get a good education.
There is no evidence that a separate Scotland would be in a better position to "look after the most vulnerable" if that's your goal (making people less vulnerable would be a better goal imo) and some convincing evidence that a separate Scotland would have to carry out significant cuts in social spending.
The evidence points in the other direction..... (Caveat, if anything)
some convincing evidence that a separate Scotland would have to carry out significant cuts in social spending.
Do you have any links to any high quality evidence that shows this? I doubt that you do as I can't see that kind of thing being independently funded so as to produce unbiased research findings.
Yes plenty, but it tends to get dismissed as bullying, bluffing and what was the third one......?
It does not need to be in a better position [ financially] it justr needs a commitment to it.
All but the most churlish would agree scotland will be a little nicer to its citizens than a Tory led govt
has anything that either of the sides of the debate has argued changed they way you are going to vote?
I cannot vote but I would in the main I would agree with much of what THM has said in that post up there [ I bet even this gets called troll or he may just take credit for edumakating me , hard to call 😉 ]
The more you read and the more they say the more Ys seem to be arguing for some strange hybrid half way house that is neither independence nor union.
As for ernie claim it is a polemic and it depends what figures you believe. I dont believe the figures of any politician nor economist but it seems fairly certain iS will try and be nicer to its citizens that a bunch of tories will
The more you read and the more they say the more Ys seem to be arguing for some strange hybrid half way house that is neither independence nor union.
The "Devo Max" option that the SNP wanted to be included on the ballot paper?
They do not have that option but in essence it does seem to be what they are arguing for.
They don't have that option, but they did ask for it. As I said earlier the best of the two remaining options is to leave.
I quite enjoyed reading this thought provoking article earlier today. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/07/17/dinner-with-no-voters-or-what-i-wanted-to-say-before-the-pudding-hit-the-fan/
As an example...
A Scottish government spokeswoman said Scotland would still end up with a lower debt-to-GDP ratio than the UK, and any deal on debt must also include "a fair share of the assets of the current UK" – a formula Scottish ministers say [b]includes a deal to share the pound.[/b]The spokeswoman also claimed the NIESR's analysis was mistaken.[b] The findings "misunderstand how government debt works[/b].....
Says the woman who prefaces this accusation by showing (1) she doesn't know what an asset is and (3) she doesn't understand debt-to-GDP..
It would be funny if it wasn't so important
The evidence is based on two facts, firstly the European Fiscal Compact which Scotland would almost certainly have to comply with, and the level of debt that the EU is likely to calculate an "independent" Scotland would have.
And secondly an "independent" Scotland would not [i]"put itself at a tax disadvantage with the rest of the UK"[/i] is the promise being made, more specifically that's aimed primarily at corporation tax. Tax cuts, which is what this means, result in spending cuts.
Sorry I can't be bothered to provide links.
I was talking about academic research carried out by people who have slightly more intelligence than your average politician.
The "Devo Max" option that the SNP wanted to be included on the ballot paper?
SNP had no mandate for a devo max question – it wasn't mentioned in their manifesto
The irony is, that the end result of the No vote will probably be closer to DMax! The main parties have already shown their cards in that respect, they are vote collectors after all.
If AS was as canny as some suggest, he would see this, STFU, accept the law of unintended consequences and enjoy the opportunity to still be a big fish in a little pond and still be able to blame the English when suits. He would be like a pig in....
Tax cuts, which is what this means, result in spending cuts.
no wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. You might have been in favour ernie, but most Scots I know weren't
Says the woman who prefaces this accusation by showing (1) she doesn't know what an asset is and (3) she doesn't understand debt-to-GDP..It would be funny if it wasn't so important
So is counting 😉
SNP had no mandate for a devo max question – it wasn't mentioned in their manifesto
Unlike the Tory mandate to hold this vote with a coalition government
Worst scribble ever.
Stop playing the man THM re AsS.
No rUK politician has made anything other than sound bite flirtations re devo max and they do this to sway the voters.
there is nothing concrete on the table and I will be amazed if it is a manifesto pledge of any of them tbh. However you chose to respect these people of honour. At least apply your cynicism both ways, they are all BS to the electorate to get the outcome they want.
that this thread has ron to 188 pages with virtually all the posts being from people who don't get to voteThe irony is
Yes odd that given that the vote has implications for all!
Afghanistan
Scots in not understanding the responsibilities under article 5 of NATO charter. shocker....
they are all BS to the electorate to get the outcome they want.
I think that we may have finally found something that all of STW can agree on. Will this cause the world to end?
Anyway the x-factor reject (I think?) is making a good fist of it at the castle now (bbc 1). Good gag from the comic too!
Scots in not understanding the responsibilities under article 5 of NATO charter. shocker....
Well seeing as you don't have anything else to do with your time, please do explain how much was spent in Afgahnistan, why it was spent and what the benefit is, other than giving the daily mail readership some more dusky skinned heathens to hate.
that this thread has ron to 188 pages with virtually all the posts being from people who don't get to vote
That may be true but for some reason AS keeps engaging non voters by giving referendum speeches in England
and you always rise to the bait do you? if so, i know this nigerian ex-president...
ChubbyBlokeInLycra - Memberno wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. You might have been in favour ernie, but most Scots I know weren't
Well it's true Chubby, I was right behind Tony Blair and his wars.
Of course as a full member of NATO an "independent" Scotland will simply ignore NATO-backed wars which it doesn't fancy fighting in.
and you always rise to the bait do you?
Not particularly, I don't think I've posted on this thread before the last one, so 'always' is probably stretching it a bit.
But the SNP seems to want to get non voters involved so I guess some will accommodate that.
please do explain how much was spent in Afgahnistan, why it was spent and what the benefit is,
Irrelevant straw man - Scotland plans to be part of NATO, if NATO article 5 is invoked then all constituent members of NATO are duty bound to collective defence, an attack on one is an attack on all.
that'll be no then?
Not particularly, I don't think I've posted on this thread before the last one, so 'always' is probably stretching it a bit.
,,and yet you did rise on this occaiasion, so you do rise. And you'll probably do it again.
I made no comment on the referendum other than to indicate why non voters may be commenting following your post mentioning it
see? "always rise"
You're very clever Chubby, your debating skills are awesome - you're always catching people out.
How many points have you scored now ? 🙂
Wasn't counting ernie, but when it comes to pointless point scoring, your little spats with ninfan et al probably score pretty high. Fortunately, I can't really compete there
[quote=Junkyard ]
It would be funny if it wasn't so important
So is counting
and spelling? 😉
Remember 'Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead'? Well, it didn't, and neither would Devo Max.
Absolutely - Scottish independence is inevitable. There's [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/The-Independence-Referendum-Is-a-Test-of-Scotlands-Confidence.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1 ]A good article in the NY Times[/url] about that.
ChubbyBlokeInLycra - MemberWasn't counting ernie, but when it comes to pointless point scoring, your little spats with ninfan et al probably score pretty high. Fortunately, I can't really compete there
Gosh, you've really caught me out there with that retort, you're on a roll tonight, aren't you mate. How many people have you slapped down now ?
Ben that is a very impartial article written in the NY Times....by a Scot! 🙄
The writer of the article is going back to scotland to vote yes and he lives in London. He doesn't want Scotland ruled from England but is happy to be ruled by it himself. Go figure that out?
and spelling?
[s]mossively impertant to sum 😉
[/s]
Are you suggesting there is a typo in counting ?
Faster no one is impartial on this debate so anyone who writes anything can be accused of bias. Its generally better to address the issue they raise rather than point out that someone who is arguing for independence is biased for independence and the ignoring them or else I can simply say
You dont want independence so you are biased .....I doubt we would get to this many pages with this approach
the author does a fairly reasonable job of being balanced and presents the yes and the no cases reasonably impartially - certainly better than the bile posted on here [ from both sides]
I think they have a point - perhaps like the EU for the UK it wont go away whatever the vote.
That's just it, the issue will not go away even if NO achieve a 75% of the vote (which isn't going to happen).
For that reason its best for both parties - but IMO especially the UK - that the result is a YES vote.
Muddy everyone is in the UK both parties would be iS and rUK.
the issue will not go away even if NO achieve a 75% of the vote
The issue will most certainly go away for a very long if there is a no vote. Of course the SNP will still carry on campaigning for independence, because that's what they've been doing since they were formed 80 years ago. And no one be sure that you won't still be banging on about how you dislike Scots because of what Alex Salmond has said.
Funny how the NYT article conveniently sidesteps the fact that being part of the union allowed Scotland to come through the crisis far better than most and to recover relatively well within a wider union. And yS want to exchange this for uncertainty, risk and unsustainable macro policies. Absurd. Good job these folk are kept largely out of the way of actual business, you would be fired for such incompetence in the real world.
Muddy everyone is in the UK both parties would be iS and rUK.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Ernie, i don't dislike Scottish people at all - although i grant you i do dislike Mr Salmond.
I do think we will all be better off in the event of a Yes vote, it may take some time but relations between the UK & Scotland will settle down & improve, financial stability will improve long term in the UK at least due to being rid of the uncertainty, i also believe the UK left will be forced to re-engage with the larger UK population again which is no bad thing.
To be honest i can't see a downside for the UK should Scotland vote Yes, plus it brings autonomy (of a sort) to a region that currently feels undervalued - win/win you might say.
If that is anti-Scottish in your view so be it, you aren't any sort of oracle to me.
Of course you're not anti-Scottish, and Salmond isn't anti-English.
[url= http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1436728.ece ]Better Together is being tipped off about BBC debates so they can get their supporters into the audience.[/url]
More seriously...
wanmankylung - Member
When faced with the two remaining options, for me there is no choice but to vote for independence. This is because I want to live in a country that looks after the most vulnerable people....etc
Even AS's advisors don't believe that he will deliver this. Take Stiglitz's view on tax policy
Professor Joseph Stiglitz said:"…there are some tax-avoiding jurisdictions, such as Ireland, that are competing in a race to the bottom by offering low tax rates, so much so that money kept abroad can almost escape taxation."
"…the consequences are not just a matter of fairness.”
This isn’t the first time Professor Stiglitiz has criticised cuts to corporation tax, previously saying:
“It’s just a gift to the corporations increasing inequality in our society.”
When you own team point out that you are talking BS, you know you are on a sticky wicket.
I'm not voting for Alex Salmond. I'm not voting for the SNP. I'm voting for the ability to decide our government.
the author does a fairly reasonable job of being balanced and presents the yes and the no cases reasonably impartially
In an article titled,
Scottish Independence Is Inevitable
The Independence Referendum Is a Test of Scotland’s Confidence
and that ends with,
I shall vote yes this September. The campaign has already taught me that if we don’t make it with this third referendum, there will be a fourth. It’s time to rejoin the world on our own terms.
is hardly balanced or impartial.
More like fanciful.....like most of the yS arguments
No stories are balanced or impartial. And that's okay - newspapers don't have an obligation to be balanced.
But when the BBC, who we all pay for and do have such an obligation, are so blatantly unbalanced then we have to take notice.
When they cover a Free Palestine demonstration in Glasgow, they interviewed a leading Labour politician, and forget to mention that he was booed off stage.
No voters are a minority group and I believe they deserve at least 35% of articles regarding independence are about them. 😉
The Beeb are perfectly balanced - everyone thinks that Auntie is biased against them!!!
That takes some doing - or just shows that the arguments are pretty false.
[url= http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/283287-indy-scotlands-eu-membership-would-be-treated-as-special-case/ ]Juncker says Scotland would be a special case and he wouldn't want us to be left out of the EU.[/url]
The Beeb are perfectly balanced - everyone thinks that are biased against them!!!
Proper rigorous scientific research shows otherwise, and BBC management tried to undermine the professor who carried out the research.
bencooper - MemberBetter Together is being tipped off about BBC debates so they can get their supporters into the audience.
[i] [b] A BBC Scotland spokesman said: “The BBC is committed to ensuring balance in all aspects of the Referendum Debate programmes, including an audience with equal numbers of Yes and No voters. We have been meticulous and successful in this regard in the shows so far.
“In order to ensure we can achieve this, we have occasionally contacted groups on both sides of the argument to ask if their supporters would like to apply to take part.
“Every applicant is vetted and selected using the same process, after filling in an online questionnaire and speaking to our audience producer.
“We will continue to produce our audiences in the same way for the remaining debates, in order to ensure both sides of the argument are properly represented.”[/i][/b]
So Yes Scotland claims that the BBC are biased against them and haven't invited them to Referendum Debate programmes, do you really expect people to believe that ?
Either the BBC or Yes Scotland are lying, they can't both be telling the truth. Given the choice I'm sure people will make up their minds which of the two is most biased.
BTW Ben assuming that you are not a News International fully paid up subscriber who spends their Sunday mornings reading the Sunday Times, how did you manage to stumble on this article hidden behind a paywall ?
Does Wings Over Scotland send you an email alerting you of the latest line to push ?
Juncker is not the source used in the article. More desperate separatist lies.
Bloody spokespeople, hey? So easy to misinterpret. Look at what the yS one then said
A spokesperson for First Minister Alex Salmond said: "This confirms what we’ve said all along. Scotland is [b]already part[/b] of the EU and as such already [b]meets all [/b]the requirements for membership.
Now obviously those can't be AS's words as they are blatantly untrue, even after the article. Unless of course AS is......
Good job this is not important.....
Juncker is not the source used in the article. More desperate separatist lies.
Given the historical connotations with the word separatist, and the current headlines regarding Russian separatists, I assume this is another rather lame attempt to troll yes voters. Give over and grow up.
is hardly balanced or impartial.
He presents the No case reasonably well would you have preferred he had presented it in this style?
More desperate separatist lies.
If only he had achieved this level of balance eh
FWIW i am not a fan of un named sources but it is very common for the politicians spokesperson to brief off the record. Have you anything , beyond outrage, to counter the claim?
Funny you criticise the lack of impartiality in others whilst doing this
Muddy everyone is in the UK both parties would be iS and rUK.
Obvious troll is obvious.
In this vote both sides are the UK , were there a separation that is what they would be called. Everyone has used these terms throughout the debate.Been a lot of trolling on this point then 🙄
The Beeb are perfectly balanced - everyone thinks that Auntie is biased against them!!!That takes some doing
Indeed it does and they do a very difficult job very well. All politicians think they are against them. IMHO they wont be asking anyone from here to join them 😉
On the contrary I have been calling them separatists for quite some time. They support the separation of Scotland from the UK hence separatists. It is easier on the tongue than dissolutionists.
Nationalist also has "connotations". Most people are already "grown up" enough to separate the debate from what is going on in the Ukraine. Lame attempt to "troll" no voters perhaps!!! 😉
Scotland is already part of the EU
Scotland is clearly part of the EU though the UK signs it were it not then neither is wales nor england
If it is not in the EU when you went to Scotland you would leave the EU and clearly you do not.
By "blatantly untrue [ BBC wont be calling today] you mean the UK is in the EU and scotland is part of the EU but it has not signed it personally. That is true but it is clearly , currently, in the EU just as england is and Cornwall and Gwynedd etc.
It is really weak to claim Scotland is not in the EU I was born there I have an EU passport as does everyone else born there and I am an EU citizen, Amazing considering it is not in the EU eh 🙄
FWIW i am not a fan of un named sources but it is very common for the politicians spokesperson to brief off the record.
Have any proof of that? Do you work in politics or the press? Your arguments rarely stand up to any scrutiny.
http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/index_en.htm
Hard to find the word Scotland (or England/Wlales) on the official list.
JY Scotland is currently part of the EU as it is part of the UK. There are no agreements stating that England or Scotland are part of the EU, only the UK is part of the EU. If England left the UK I would not expect to remain an EU citizen.
whatnobeer - MemberGiven the historical connotations with the word separatist
What are they then ? I always understood separatist as referring to people who support a region breaking away from a larger region.
What do you have in mind when you mention "historical connotations" ?
t is really weak to claim Scotland is not in the EU I was born there I have an EU passport as does everyone else born there and I am an EU citizen, Amazing considering it is not in the EU eh
Channel islanders hold EU passports, my ex and my daughters both do, as does everyone else born there, although islanders don't have rights to freedom of movement within the EU, as the islands are not part of the EU
work that one out!
Look at it this way - If Martinique became independent from France, do you think they would still be part of the EU, and all the citizens would retain EU passports and freedom of movement?
Hard to find the word Scotland (or England/Wlales) on the official list.
But if you click on the UK it gives you this:
http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/unitedkingdom/index_en.htm
Yes it does, and so what?
Hard to find the word Scotland (or England/Wlales) on the official list.
You said that it was hard to find the word Scotland on the official list. It isn't difficult at all.
It also mentions Lancashire hotpot made with lamb or beef, potatoes and onions, and ****stan.
😀
You said that it was hard to find the word Scotland on the official list. It isn't difficult at all.
Separatist desperation reaches a new low!
What are the historical connotations of the word "separatist"? And how is "separatist" incorrect or pejorative when applied to people that want Scotland to separate from the UK?
In an article titled,Scottish Independence Is Inevitable
The Independence Referendum Is a Test of Scotland’s Confidence
and that ends with,I shall vote yes this September. The campaign has already taught me that if we don’t make it with this third referendum, there will be a fourth. It’s time to rejoin the world on our own terms.
is hardly balanced or impartial.
Just as a point of order: American newspapers in general, and the NYT in particular, are exceptionally tedious and pedantic about striving for balance and impartiality. The journalism culture is arse-archingly self-regarding in that respect. The exception is in editorial and opinion pieces, where there is no attempt or pretence at balance.
Ascherson's was an opinion piece.
I prefer to think of myself as a member of the Rebel Alliance.
Whether I'm a Lando or a Han Solo........
Out of interest - has anything that either of the sides of the debate has argued changed they way you are going to vote? Feel free to answer even if you do not have a vote for whatever reason.
Yes and No
Ben makes me swing to a No vote.
THM makes me swing to a Yes vote .
The leading edges of both the yes and no campaigns make me swing towards selling my house and trying to find somewhere not run by total *******
Out of interest - has anything that either of the sides of the debate has argued changed they way you are going to vote? Feel free to answer even if you do not have a vote for whatever reason.
yes campaign moved me from a (hypothetical) probably yes to an almost certain (hypothetical) no. They just haven't thought anything through.
Have any proof of that? Do you work in politics or the press? Your arguments rarely stand up to any scrutiny.
I dont work in the North Pole but I know it is cold, it is that level of controversial as statements go. If you must have a constant spat with me at least pick something of substance that may actually not be true.
You want proof that politicians brief off the record? BRILLIANT 😆
JY Scotland is currently part of the EU as it is part of the UK. There are no agreements stating that England or Scotland are part of the EU, only the UK is part of the EU
Excellent so we both agree that scotland is part of the EU by virtue of being in the UK. Thanks.
Separatist desperation reaches a new low!
You have already agreed that scotland is part of the EU and now you are getting annoyed that someone else says the same thing with a reference 😕
TBH all I see is No voters engaging in AS like 3 Bs [sic] here. When you go to scotland you remain in the EU there can be no debate on this point at all. there can be none on the point that the UK is the member and Scotland is part of that Union [ hence in the EU] and it will need to reapply if independent [ IMHO as a current member rather an new one but that bit is at least debatable].
FFS , how is this even up for debate. Look at the latest link, the answer is in the words of the article....
Speaking to the Scotland on Sunday, a "senior EU source" said an independent Scotland's [b]application to join the EU [/b]would be treated as a "special case" as the country was already signed up to core requirements such as gender equality and workers' rights.
If an iS was automatically a member why would anyone be talking about "joining"? It's simple spin and BS to suggest anything otherwise.