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Which elected leader are you saying is poor at it
CMD and his greenest ever govt?
CMD and the No changes to the NHS?
Clegg and his pledge over tuition fees?
Brown ending boom and bust?
Blairs dossier?
Shall i go on or is that enough?
Who is this elected leader you are holding up as a bastion of truth ?
As he is a politician of course he is full of shit.
He is the leader of his party and his country of course he is in the premier league of lying bullshittery
This is not news.
As the dispatches programme noted both sides were engaged in skulldugger for they are campaigns run by politicians to achieve a political goal
You have to be pretty naive to be surprised by this and massively biased to only moan at or notice one side doing it.
To single him out alone is simply to say you want to vote no.
but that IMO means adopting the euro
It means agreeing to adopt it at some time in the future but you still need to pass the tests and they wont.
As has been noted there are other countries who have not joined the Euro and the EU is clear that they will not force them.
they will not be forced but they will be forced to say they will join when they can.
but that IMO means adopting the euro
Aw yeah, big man, wir totes gaunnae tek the euro, we love a euro likes <== actual text of Scottish Euro commitment for EU entry.
A'up in't it time to move on't Yorkshire free state. Tha can keep yer € unless it's free.
Still don't really understand this fear of committing to the Euro - after all, just a couple of years ago it was SNP policy. You remember, back when the pound was 'a millstone round Scotland’s neck' and automatic EU membership was guaranteed...
As he is a politician of course he is full of shit.
Politicians do lie, who doesn't, but they also have to compromise to get anything done. Take Clegg for instance he said no to tuition fees and traded that out to the tories probably thinking he would get PR voting. As a junior partner in a coalition he never really had any power to get anything done without compromise. Are we all not a little harsh on politicians?
Take Clegg for instance he said no to tuition fees and traded that out to the tories probably thinking he would get PR voting.
That makes is sound like a minor change in detail over an fairly unimportant issue. Clegg however didn't treat it like that at all, he did a lot more than simply "say" no to tuition fees.
He made a [i]pledge[/i] - a solemn and binding promise, that he vote against any increase in tuition fees, and that he would put pressure on the government to introduce a "fairer alternative".
Much fanfare was created to publicise this pledge as Clegg sought maximum media attention to what was a central LibDem policy, and one which undoubtedly won the LibDem votes.
Clegg even posed with dark-skinned kids to increase his credibility when he was engaging in photo-opportunities to publicise of his "pledge".
[img] 
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The magnitude of Clegg's dishonesty was far worse than the average politician's failure to deliver. Contrary to the much bandied about allegation that all politicians liars imo most are in fact far more honest than they get credit for, and failure to deliver isn't usually deliberate.
When they make "pledges" they tend to stick with them, I doubt that you would be able to find another example of an election pledge deliberately broken.
Clegg and tuition fees is not a good example, it's way off the 'dishonest politician scale'.
Clegg wasn't dishonest, he was un-principled. He sold out on everything the Lib-Dems stood for to be in a coalition government and swan around with the title of Deputy Prime Minister. He didn't even trade them for a referendum on proportional representation just the "grubby little compromise" (his words).
@Junkyard, if Scotland is as strong as the SNP says you will definitely qualify for the euro. I don't see how you can not.
No Clegg wasn't unprincipled, he had principles.
Here is one of his principles which he wanted everyone to see :
[img] 
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There is little doubt that the LibDems won extra votes because of Clegg's "pledge". But he didn't keep it, which makes him dishonest imo.
jambalaya - Member
@whatnobeer - AS is very much in the premier league of misrepresentation.
Of course and this is an important issue not only for the people of Scotland but also for rUK (Yes all of it)
Of, course Cleggy talked bllx. But he has come from decades of irrelevance. The lib Dems had a crash course in what it means to have responsibility for execution not just easy rhetoric that can never be/will never be executed. By accident (and the folly of a TV debate) they get elevated to a position that no one imagined. Hardly surprising that the promises were a complete mirage. A harsh lesson learned.
The difference with the deceitful one is that these are real issues, with real policies that will be implemented, with real questions that need to be answered without hiding behind the 3Bs. That is why you cannot dismiss the DO so lightly (plus he has had a political lifetime to get ready to answer them).
As jambalaya said it is not the deceit/misrepresentation in itself that is remarkable it is the magnitude of it. That puts it into a whole different level. There is a blatant lie at the heart of the whole iS debate that I have highlighted over an over again. To waste money and time on something centered on such a basic lie elevates his deceit to a completely different level v the standard political BS that we put up with on a daily basis.
BT was sleepwalking into this which makes them partly culpable. Having said that they really should keep quiet and let yS condemn themselves out of their own mouths. Above all avoid the TV debate. If there is any value in Cleggy it is to point that out (actually TBF they had a job to do and broken promises a sided, they actually did an ok job in appaling circumstances , so deserve to be cut some slack IMO)
Imagine the tories without the lib dems to hold them back. Things could have been a lot worse. There are many things to consider when slating coalition governments containing parties with not much in common.
Are we all not a little harsh on politicians?
In general yes we are. In this example No a million times no.
if Scotland is as strong as the SNP says you will definitely qualify for the euro. I don't see how you can not.
I still dont live there and I still cannot vote.
They wont be able to make the necessary changes to their central bank as they will be using the Pound 😉
FWIW the four criteria are
*Price stability, to show inflation is controlled;
*Soundness and sustainability of public finances, through limits on government borrowing and national debt to avoid excessive deficit;
*Exchange-rate stability, through participation in the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II) for at least two years without strong deviations from the ERM II central rate;
*Long-term interest rates, to assess the durability of the convergence achieved by fulfilling the other criteria.
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/who_can_join/index_en.htm
as they will be a new country they cannot meet any of them and certainly not exchange rate stability for two years.
faster i agree the lib dems have reigned some of the tory excess re europe the NHS and done some good stuff re raising the tax threshold
However The tories could not rule without them and he has more power than he thought and he sold his soul to a deal for PR initially and he [ and possibly the entire party] are unlikely to be forgiven fr this
In essence he made some serious errors in the first few days/negotiations but after that they have done some good for sure and they get little credit for it.
Imagine the tories without the lib dems to hold them back. Things could have been a lot worse.
You mean like imagine the Tories without a parliamentary majority ? .....unable to pursue their right-wing agenda ?
That would have been [i]"a lot worse"[/i] ?
Well yes, I guess so.......if you are a Tory.
So every Tory in the country should be grateful that Nick Clegg and the LibDems were prepared to sell their principles for the simple privilege of a ride in a chauffeur-driven ministerial car. And I'm sure they are.
....adds Richard Harris and Durham Uni to the list. (I wonder if his stuff is peer reviewed?)
One of thm's early posts
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-voters-previously-against-yes-vote-explain-why-they-changed-their-minds-9593134.html ]No voters who are switching to Yes...[/url]
slow day if we are just listing folk who agree with us.
That is too both of you BTW.
[s]Forgive my lack of bias here will you fellas[/s] 😉
Sorry for trolling you both 😀
Alternately:-
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/new-poll-yes-32-no-46-dont-know-22.1404634503 ]Support for independence appears to have stalled [/url]
Yup, it really is hard to tell how it's going to go.
No it isn't. It never has been. No has always been well ahead.
Past polls aren't an indication of future voting. The trend is moving towards Yes, but the question is is it moving fast enough, and have people taken account of the first-time voters properly?
bencooper - MemberNo voters who are switching to Yes...
I thought it was going to be a link to a serious poll finding ! 😀
Ben
Those are the straws you must keep clutching, I suppose. But every indication is that its still strongly No.
Indeed, (largely) canny folk who know what is best.
This will get closer though. AS knows how to play the game even if he lacks the detail on the important stuff. Three percent just from doing a Farrage on TV - mainstream cannot handle BSers as Cleggy showed with UKIP.
[quote=bencooper ]The trend is moving towards Yes
er, you appear to be replying to:
[quote=heraldscotland]Support for independence appears to have stalled
The independence debate is not in the national news as much as I thought it would be although this could be the quiet before the storm. What is it like in Scotland? Much in the media? Anybody had people knocking on the door canvassing for support?
are you suggesting there that Scottish issue are not covered generally in the Union 😉
Anybody had people knocking on the door canvassing for support?
Not from either official campaign, no. My windowcleaner (voting Yes) saw the small sticker I had on the shop window, mentioned it to one one else on his round who had more stickers and posters, and she dropped in with some, which I've also passed on to neighbours who wanted them. So it's more a self-organising thing, really.
Oh, there was the leaflet from Better Together in the post, but that went straight in the recycling.
There's an interesting discussion over on The Website Which Must Not Be Named, around the subject of pensions. It goes like this:
Taxpayers in the UK pay taxes all their working lives, and receive a state pension when they retire. This includes taxpayers in Scotland. That pension continues to be paid out if the pensioner moves abroad - as it should be, since the pensioner paid into it all their life.
The UK government confirmed that pensions will be unaffected by Scottish independence, all taxpayers who have paid in will continue to receive a pension from the UK government. So basically, at the point of independence, an independent Scotland will have no pensions liability, as all the pensions will be being paid by the UK government.
Considering how much of the welfare budget goes on pensions, that's a pretty big whack of money that an independent Scotland will save - estimates of £100bn have been made.
Interesting.
[So basically, at the point of independence, an independent Scotland will have no pensions liability, as all the pensions will be being paid by the UK government]
Not so fast Ben. Not everyone is retired. For those yet to retire, their ultimate entitlement will be affected by pensions policies of iS. The rUK will not be picking up the full tab for a current 25 year old who retires in 40+ years. Largely another non-story about recognising liabilities at the point of independence. But nothing committed about liabilities generated thereafter.
Yes, of course there will be a scaling thing - for me, there will be 20 years of UK pensions I've paid into, and whatever else from Scottish pensions.
Basically the pension liability of everyone in Scotland at the date of independence will be paid by the rUK - which is fair enough, we've paid taxes so we should get our benefits back.
Yes, of course there will be a scaling thing - for me, there will be 20 years of UK pensions I've paid into, and whatever else from Scottish pensions.Basically the pension liability of everyone in Scotland will be paid by the rUK - which is fair enough, we've paid taxes so we should get our benefits back.
I thought that the current state pension wasn't funded that way? Current pensioners get their pension from current PAYE payments. So you'd presumably get your Scottish pension from Scottish taxpayers ?
That's going to be a problem for the rUK government. It's as if we've all been paying into a savings account, and instead of saving the money the government has been spending it.
The liability remains, however.
So you'd presumably get your Scottish pension from Scottish taxpayers ?
Scottish pension, yes. I'm going to get a Scottish pension, which I'll pay into from the date of independence, but before then I've been paying into a UK pension, which the rUK will still owe me.
It doesn't make sense any other way - the alternative is that, for example, someone who retires one year after independence gets a full pension paid for by the Scottish government, who have only received one year's NI payments from that person.
That's going to be a problem for the rUK government. It's as if we've all been paying into a savings account, and instead of saving the money the government has been spending it
That's exactly how it has been.
As I say, a bit of a non-issue. In the event of separation there'll be a negotiation of the split of assets & liabilities. This is but one of many subjects of negotiation. And before you say "but the UK promised", just think what that means when actuaries on both sides get involved.
Why would the national news be interested Ben? The rehashed BS was exposed months ago. No coherent case has been presented to date and all key questions ducked. Most of rUK has simply dismissed the whole charade but would re-engage if the vote seemed close to avoid the obvious harm that would be caused to all parties.
In the meantime the more hysterical/trivial attempts of yS are probable best served by channel 5.
Most of the rUK dont care as we cannot vote ...forgive the troll as you like to call my questioning of your "analysis".
TV debate is on!
Salmond is still trying to get Cameron to debate, but he has had to make do with Darling. Salmond needs to make this an England vs Scotland issue because he hasn't been able to put across an argument for independence that appeals to Scots on a practical level.
Of course he does and hopefully CMD will be sensible enough to avoid. It's pretty much impossible to deal with rampant BS and distortion in the context of a TV debate as Farrage's brilliantly awful examples show.
We have seen enough though. The DO came out to play in the big boys playground and was mashed by all and sundry. Enough said....no wonder he had to hide behind the lame bully excuse.
THM using the word bully is just not acceptable! It does not fit in with junkyard's independence forum rules. No doubt he will be along to tell you off 😉
Salmond needs to make this an England vs Scotland issue because he hasn't been able to put across an argument for independence that appeals to Scots on a practical level
TBH it is not unreasonable that the leader of the current state debates with the leader of the current state wanting independence. Of course CMD is politically astute enough to decline and I dont blame him. However it is not a decision borne out of any other principle than it is the best thing to secure the result he wants.
Similarly you cannot really blame AS for doing the things that will do benefit his campaign the most even if a portion of that is to appeal to base nationalism.
Again you defend CMD for playing politics and criticise AS for playing politics
Neither is great IMHO but i can see why both do it and they are playing the same game the same way.
The constant comparison of AS to farage is a cheap slur and the type of BS deceit you object to THM [ again oh the irony/pathos in your posts] - even ernie challenged you on that point though of course it is a troll when i do it.
Who FNF?
No one can complain about rehashing yS terminology!!! No guesses why the word slips so easily off his tongue....
Similarly you cannot really blame AS for doing the things that will do benefit his campaign the most even if a portion of that is to appeal to base nationalism.
True. But I can say that he has failed to sell a rational case for independence to Scots according to the polls. I don't see people changing their minds that much in the months to come either.
Exactly FNF. It's going to be tough to get this to 7k now (even with plenty of trolly padding).
[quote=bencooper ]It doesn't make sense any other way - the alternative is that, for example, someone who retires one year after independence gets a full pension paid for by the Scottish government, who have only received one year's NI payments from that person.
Now I'm really confused. What exactly is the point of this vote if Scotland is already independent from the UK?
THM the troll claim [ NOM NOM NOM] is tragic
Here is the point that is not beyond you [ except to defend obviously hence the ad hom whilst claiming only I do it}
your starter for 10 ....best of luck with it
So dispatches was it like how you described it or how they described it?
How is that a troll?
Go on explain how my point is incorrect ? you cannot and we all know it hence you play the man.
You were doing your hyperbolic thing [ lies you would call it were AS to do it] and you know there is no credible way to explain it.
Its amusing to have you two call me troll and claiming i had a near mental breakdown ...but its just me doing the trolling name calling stuff eh
As credible and believable as anything else you type.
As for bully I dont think i have accuse anyone of bullying on this thread o rthis forum so that would be a straw man faster 😛
JY I would never call you a troll. I did call you a nat once though 😆
Thanks for the respect 😀
[quote=Junkyard ] As for bully I dont think i have accuse anyone of bullying on this thread o rthis forum so that would be a straw man faster
Well for that you get one of these:
[img] 
[/img]
because faster didn't suggest you'd accused anybody of bullying
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
(feel free to ignore me as I've no idea what's going on in your argument with fnf and thm and don't want to know - but couldn't resist the opportunity)
I think someone has been on the tipple - either that or paranoia/self delusion. 😉
Aracer guilty as charged ...goes to sit on the dunces step for a while * 😳
THM was the starter for 10 too hard you had to play the man yet again
Insults is all you have to offer whilst claiming i troll ... the DO one has nothing on your BS
* he did suggest i would object to bullying when I have never accused anyone of bullying . I am not sure how anyone can bully anyone on here tbh though THM seems to be giving it a try [ unless of course i am just being drunkenly paranoid that he is having repeated digs at me]
Shall we see what the evidence points to THM 😉
JY bullied me when I proved him wrong about the trams though. I mean I like totally pwned the guy and he just wouldn't let it go.
You get used to it. Imagine being trolled about a TV programme you clearly stated that you didn't watch!! It's beyond desperate. Best not to feed FNF but even that doesn't work as you can see clearly.
Now I'm really confused. What exactly is the point of this vote if Scotland is already independent from the UK?
Yes, you are. Scotland at the moment is not independent, so all Scots pay into the UK pension fund. Once Scotland is independent, then Scots will pay into a Scottish pension fund.
However, there will still be a pension liability for the rUK to cover those payments that Scots made into the UK pension fund before independence. On the date of independence, Scotland will have zero pension liability because there will have been no payments into the Scottish pension fund yet.
JY, is AS the "leader of the current state wanting independence?" You seem to be succumbing to nobody is voting "no" syndrome.
[quote=bencooper ]Yes, you are. Scotland at the moment is not independent, so all Scots pay into the UK pension fund.
Is Scotland not benefiting from those payments as part of the UK?
However, there will still be a pension liability
Not planning on taking your share of the liabilities then?
Is Scotland not benefiting from those payments as part of the UK?
Yes, of course - pensioners in Scotland receive their pensions from the UK. And that will continue after independence.
Not planning on taking your share of the liabilities then?
Depends if we get a share of the assets - it's a good negotiation point. I assume there will be some negotiation along the lines of Scotland taking over the pension liabilities in return for substantial assets.
Ben, please tell me that you are not planning your own pension on the basis of that view. If so, please see an advisor quickly!
THE Scottish Government’s plans for pensions in an independent Scotland amount to the “biggest mis-selling scandal in history”, according to the chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee.
You have been warned. Please don't fall for yet more lies when it comes to you pension. Seriously (STW joking apart, this is a serious piece of advice if you are exposed)
This is, of course, all about state pensions. I'm pretty much assuming there won't be a state pension by the time I get to retire, if I ever do.
[quote=bencooper ]Depends if we get a share of the assets - it's a good negotiation point. I assume there will be some negotiation along the lines of Scotland taking over the pension liabilities in return for substantial assets.
I'm sure iS will get its fair share of the assets (though not a share of things which aren't assets) in return for taking on its fair share of the liabilities. I don't think anybody sensible has ever suggested otherwise, though some delusional people have suggested walking away from the liabilities.
Or does "substantial" imply you were expecting more than that - in which case let me remind you of the Edinburgh agreement.
JY bullied me when I proved him wrong about the trams though. I mean I like totally pwned the guy and he just wouldn't let it go.
Very funny at least THM bought it 😉
I will leave him in ignorance there as he will only call me names if I explain.
You get used to it. Imagine being trolled about a TV programme you clearly stated that you didn't watch!!
Are you trying to deceive the good people of STW with that or have you just forgotten?
Your account is as misleading as an AS on currency and we know what you think of that.
Dodgy yS practices on C4 at 8
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/osbourne-says-no-to-currency-union/page/177#post-6146200
You said
My reply
Rather ironic what the dispatches website saysAntony Barnett goes on the campaign trail with both sides of the Scottish independence debate to investigate claims of dubious tactics and misinformation.
My emphasis obviously.So both sides not just one...I think I know which you think comes out best without either of us bothering to watch it
Was your description an accurate description or a misleading one? No amount of calling me names will change the fact you were biased in your description and I am not sure why you are responding like this tbh. Its not even that a big a deal beyond your obfuscation tbh.
Now what do you say when AS does this sort of thing?
Y, is AS the "leader of the current state wanting independence?" You seem to be succumbing to nobody is voting "no" syndrome.
well i also said CMD was the leader of the ones who wanted to keep the union and not everyone there does.
Yes your point is correct but i find it hard to believe you did not know what I meant. It would have been more accurate to say they are the heads of the states involved or affected.
Of course many are voting no and i would imagine it is still the majority.
i think they have suggested it as threat during negotiations I dont think anyone has ever thought they would do it not even on here .some delusional people have suggested walking away from the liabilities.
JY. They are not heads of any state either. (Yet).
I dont think you are struggling to get my point even if you find my language use clumsy - you will always have a point on that front 😉
[quote=Junkyard ]I dont think anyone has ever thought they would do it not even on here .
I imagine some of the electorate think they will, which we all seem to be agreed is the whole point of saying such things.
Though of course I was only using it as an opportunity to call him delusional 😉
For a moment then i got paranoid and thought you meant me 😉
Doh! - and this is in a constituency held by SNP since 1987... 😳
http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_news/news_93837.html
A mock independence referendum by senior pupils from secondary schools in Moray resulted in a sizeable majority voting No.
The overall result was: Yes 29%, No 71%.
Individual school results were:
Buckie High – Yes 52%, No 48%
Elgin Academy – Yes 22%, No 78%
Elgin High – Yes 34%, No 66%
Forres Academy – Yes 21%, No 79%
Keith Grammar – Yes 40%, No 60%
Lossiemouth High – Yes 25%, No 75%
Milne’s High – Yes 26%, No 74%
Speyside High – Yes 29%, No 71%
The total of 964 votes cast represented a turnout of 56.3%.
Oops, add my old mucker's at UBS to the 3Bs list
http://www.cityam.com/1404901721/ubs-no-vote-scottish-independence-will-still-shake-stocks
Do these clever people not read the script? 😉
Meanwhile, in Portugal.....
@ben - there is no such thing as a UK pension fund. The amount and number of years you "pay-in" via National Insurance determines how much pension you get upon retirement (subject to any changes the government care to make between now and then). As stated by others current tax payers (ie us) pay current pensions. When we retire we have to hope the future taxpayers are going to do the same for us and/or that the intervening governments doesn't change the rules. I am pretty sure there is no contractual obligation to pay a future state pension whether that be for us in the UK or for independent Scots.
TMH surely the Central bank of Scotland would guaranty the deposits of Scottish Banks (assuming they set some up), certainly a headache as that would be a foreign currency guaranty but that's possible yes ?
[quote=jambalaya ]TMH surely the Central bank of Scotland would guaranty the deposits of Scottish Banks (assuming they set some up)
Assuming they set up a central bank. That doesn't seem to be part of the plan
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/salmond-bank-of-england-will-be-iscotlands-central-bank.1400425586
@aracer - blimey, that can't be the plan surely ! A country governing itself with no financial system ? Where are they going to put the tax receipts and how is the government debt going to work ?
Better Together must have got to the younger voters 🙂 They are clearly not fooled by yes propaganda. Perhaps it is true that the older you are, the more right wing you become.
Athgrey, yes, you have to wonder if Alex's gerrymandering of the voting age might just blow up in his face?
@aracer - blimey, that can't be the plan surely !
Are you new here jambas!!!! 😀
It really does begger belief. The depressing thing is that BT should be able to say, look guys grow up, come back with a sensible plan that at least vaguely works and then let's have a sensible discussion. They started to do this by saying, look it's blindingly obvious that a CU doesn't work under these terms (frankly for either side) and that gets em rolled in the subterfuge of currencies and assets for a while but even the DO seems to have finally dropped that charade.
But this is where the Farrage analogy IS relevant. Both players are past masters at this tactic and know full well that you cannot take these BS arguments apart in a TV debate context. That is why they use them (and use them well). At the very least pointing out the bleeding obvious that you cant have both your oatcakes and eat them is so easy to dismiss as negativity and therefore becomes a vote loser. YS and UKIP have utilised this tactic will considerable success to date. As admirable as that is tactically, it is a disaster in terms of the implications in the real world.
Fortunately not enough people have swallowed either to make a real difference but the threat is there
Is The Emperor's New Clothes on the Highers curriculum for literature? It would make sense. The younger generation can be remarkably good judges of character.
ninfan I have been fairly impressed by many responses from some young first time voters when asked about the referendum on the radio. I think many are more interested in the social ties to people their age around the uk, than they are about pure politics. Remember Thatcher is not the boogieman to them that she is with my generation and older.
Blimey, now it's the OBR laying the boot in.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/401fa55a-0817-11e4-9afc-00144feab7de.html#axzz376IX09oL
At this rate I might start feeling sorry for the poor deceitful one. To rally so many against him must be very disheartening. Poor wee hen!
Yes, of course - pensioners in Scotland receive their pensions from the UK. And that will continue after independence.
It won't work out that way - there will be an intergovernmental agreement that shifts liability onto the Scottish state. There will be a bundle of things that need to be resolved. There isn't a pensions fund in the UK so that's not really any such thing as "paying into" the system. There's no way that the UK will end up paying every existing Scottish pensioner's pension after independence - I'll bet a week's state pension payment on it.
Also - if iScotland had Salmond (an ex-banker) as new PM, no pension system in place and not existing pension fund, that is just inviting the creation of an innovative, flexible (privatized) national pensions arrangement. Be careful what you wish for - Scotland might not turn out to be the Scandinavian social democratic republic [i]you people[\i] are predicting!
A non paywall version of THMs oil forecast article
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/fresh-attack-on-yes-case-amid-new-oil-figures.24716054 ]herald[/url]
[url= http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/north-sea-oil-worth-billions-less-than-expected-1-3473371 ]And the Hoots take on it[/url]
There's no way that the UK will end up paying every existing Scottish pensioner's pension after independence - I'll bet a week's state pension payment on it.
The way the UK is heading on Pensions, that's not much of a bet.