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Well you keep repeating how bad independence is going to be for Scotland.
Do I ? Are you sure about that ?
I have done very little in suggesting that 'independence' would be bad for Scotland. My main focus has been in the lack of a compelling argument in favour of independence from the yes camp, and that whole case appears to rely on faith hope, and wishful thinking.
Are you confusing me with another poster ?
We're all agog to see all these examples of failed independence.
Many many pages ago on this thread I made it absolutely clear it is inconceivable that Scotland couldn't be independent, that it was perfectly feasible for Scotland to be independent, that in fact very little would change if Scotland became independent, most people wouldn't even notice - significant changes imo would only become apparent over time.
Again, are you confusing me with another poster ?
That's a joke, right? Perhaps an Australian, Canadian, Indian, or ****stani may like to comment if they would prefer Westminster to take over the running of their country.
You obviously didn't read the whole post.
Junkyard
it is not the best worded question [ it is a false comparison] you will ever see but the point is , as far as I am aware that no former colony has asked to return after gaining independence...
Exactly. It was difficult to come up with a perfect question because rather than addressing the specifics of the various posts I was querying the undercurrent, which basically boiled down to "independence bad, Scotland will regret it".
I couldn't think of any country that regretted it, so maybe someone else knew of one. No matter how bad things may have been in the various countries after independence, they have never been so bad that they want to return to the fold, so why would Scotland be different?
I couldn't think of any country that regretted it, so maybe someone else knew of one. No matter how bad things may have been in the various countries after independence, they have never been so bad that they want to return to the fold, so why would Scotland be different?
It's still a completely false premise. I don't think that anyone is arguing against independence as a political concept or for colonialism for that matter; I think that some people are arguing that[i] Scottish independence from the UK [/i] isn't worth it.
Equally, a person arguing that "most regions of most countries don't intend to go independent from their parent states, so this proves that Scotland will regret independence" would be just as wrongheaded as you are.
It's all completely irrelevant.
There is no sensible comparison.
[quote=epicyclo ]We're all agog to see all these examples of failed independence.
Well since you're ignoring the given example of a country where things are worse now than before independence, clearly not only is it an irrelevant question, but giving an answer is also pointless.
Good to see the DO living up to his name re the £200m costs in FM Questions. Even after the good prof clarifies that £200m is not the correct number to use, good old Alex still goes on.....
Dunleavy seems to be flapping round like a wet trout, flopping from one side to the other trying to retain the remotest degree of credibility as he sees his reputation sinking in front of him.
Even his peers at the LSE have begun ripping apart his figures:
£200 million, less than half a Holyrood.
Mind you, I reckon the HM figures are tosh too.
teamhurtmore - MemberGood to see the DO living up to his name
"Alex" means "defender/helper of men".
Just sayin'
Interesting to know NW. To which the reply was, if only.
Perhaps he simply misheard defender as deceiver?!?
With all the major issues now dealt with (a long time ago) and mainly falsified I guess it will be more trivia and nonsense for the remaining days. The TV debate was pretty unedifying all round, but I fear this could get very dire.
Yeah - the trivia and nonsense for today includes a [url= http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/update-angus-labour-candidate-resigns-after-hitler-youth-tweet-1.449806 ]Labour candidate resigning after comparing young Yes supporters to the Hitler Youth[/url] and [url= http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/nazi-swastika-daubed-on-snp-msp-s-arbroath-office-1.449448 ]a swastika being scrawled on a SNP MSP's office along with the UKOK slogan[/url].
Unpleasent at best.
Indicative of deepening divisions at worst.
Stupid undoubtably.
the trivia and nonsense for today includes
Here's a thought. How about not bothering with trivia and nonsense for a day and instead focusing on the arguments for and against Scotland separating from the rest of the UK......good idea or not ?
bencooper - MemberYeah - the trivia and nonsense for today includes a Labour candidate resigning after comparing young Yes supporters to the Hitler Youth and a swastika being scrawled on a SNP MSP's office along with the UKOK slogan.
As with the image of the Union Jack ablaze at Bannockburn which is doing the rounds on twitter, this too is deeply unpleasant. Some real idiots about.
Here's a thought. How about not bothering with trivia and nonsense for a day and instead focusing on the arguments for and against Scotland separating from the rest of the UK......good idea or not ?
I usually get called delusional or insane or something similar when that happens 😉
Well spend less time with separatists then ? 💡
I'm almost married to one, so that could be tricky.
FT poll today suggests that canny Scots remains an accurate description
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/238bf00a-0110-11e4-b94d-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz35mFY0HEK
Ernie, the "arguments" or lack of them were dealt with ages ago. When yS can't even be bothered to argue for independence then it's a bit hard on Ben and co. The rest of the debate will most likely roll along the gutter of trivia and nonsense eg the TV debate etc.....
Oh good grief. Utter pricks.
[img] http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/screenshot001-jpg.169271/ [/img]
Other people are a constant source of disappointment.
That could be the SRSM - they're fond of burning union flags, they've certainly done it before at Bannockburn.
There's really only three of them, and that's counting the dog 😉
I can't see what's particularly outrageous about burning a flag, or why anyone should be offended by it.
Obviously it's intended to be offensive but that's not a good enough reason to be offended imo.
If they pay for a flag then it's up to them if they decide to burn it.
Obviously it's intended to be offensive but that's not a good enough reason to be offended imo.
Which is why I defined them in the way I did.
Just because it's posted on STW doesn't mean you should automatically assume offence has been caused. I can't speak for Tightywighty however.
That could be the SRSM
Bloody communists.
Been at the Bannockburn re-enactment in the past when the black t-shirted goons of the SnG burnt the Union Flag on the hill.
That, alongside the drunken abuse & constant threats of violence against the 'English' army (many of whom were Scottish) made me decide there and then never to go back to that event. Travelling for hours & paying all my own costs for the weekend to put on a show & then being abused and threatened by drunken scum isn't my idea of an interesting weekend.
In fact, I don't really want to visit Scotland again to be honest & I certainly won't miss it when/if you vote Yes.
Sorry if that offends.
Just because it's posted on STW doesn't mean you should automatically assume offence has been caused.
If it's posted on STW it's reasonable to assume someone has been offended.
Sorry if that offends
It doesn't. I think you're being a little daft to make a decision about a whole country after one incident, but that's your choice. I've had anti-Scottish abuse when in England, but can recognise that it was just a tiny minority, and haven't let it change my opinion of England.
I assume they sneaked up and burnt the flag early morning? Cant see that happening during the middle of the reenactment.I have always pointed and laughed at folk that do that sort of thing,you know when you see somebody burning an effigy of the US pres,having spent time and money making it,go on then,fill your boots,you have totally owned the USA. Still,only on here is it more of an issue than the Hitler youth tweet.
If Scotland is so full of bellends, why is the UK so bothered about then buggering off?
Still,only on here is it more of an issue than the Hitler youth tweet.
One person appears to have been upset about the burning of the union flag, and you presumably are outraged by the Hitler Youth tweet, doesn't that kind of even things out ?
Or are you demanding that more people be outraged by the Hitler Youth tweet ?
No petal,I am referring to the respective media attention. Nor am I outraged by the HJ tweet,what in my post suggested I was?
If Scotland is so full of bellends, why is the UK so bothered about then buggering off?
Because there might only be a [u]minority[/u] of bellends, in which case it would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater
The beauty of a referendum is that it settles both these issues...
I am referring to the respective media attention
You said "only on here is it more of an issue" which very clearly suggests "only on here".
But apparently you meant the "media". Fair enough.
I have no idea how much media attention the two issues have received.
If it's posted on STW it's reasonable to assume someone has been offended.
It's a fair assumption.
I have no idea how much media attention the two issues have received.
I've seen no reporting on the flag burning. Plenty on the Nazi tweet and graffiti scrawl.
I find the flag image a little suspicious - there's only one image, it's pretty blurry, and only seems to have one source on Twitter. There's also not many people in the image. I think it might not be recent.
Here's an image from 2014 at the same statue:
[img] 
[/img]
Wouldn't surprise me. Certainly seems as plausible as a yes voter scrawling Nazi stuff on an SNP office to create negative news about unionists.
The only sure thing is that someone somewhere is being a tool about it
I certainly don't blame the entire population of Scotland for my unfortunate experience, the Scottish reenactors were lovely and most embarrassed. However, it doesn't make me want to hurry back that's for sure.
Deep down I suspect we really don't like each other & that's why i think we will be better off apart.
What do you mean "we"? There are many English-born people living in Scotland, and vice versa, and lots of the English-born Scots are in favour of independence - like most of my family.
What do you mean "we"?
I think he means people living on both sides of the border. What did you think he meant ?
I'm not sure - people move back and forth over the border all the time, so I don't see how you can say "we really don't like each other".
Unless he means that all British people hate all other British people. Which is perhaps more likely to be true 😉
I think there is an undercurrent of dislike - historically based - on both sides of the border & that separation is the best answer for both sides. I'm tired of being blamed for all Scotland's ills because I'm English and i want to see us dissolve the Union.
I disagree with muddydwarf. I find English people to be oblivious towards most other nations and I think this winds up the smaller nations around us to a certain extent. The English don't seem to suffer from the identity crisis that Scots, Irish and the Welsh appear to have.
On the contrary, I think it's the English who have an identity crisis - no parliament of their own, a flag that's partly been taken over by unsavoury elements, retreating from Europe into an isolationist stance.
Yup,but point it out and they get offended. Maybe if they spent less time trying to interfere in other countries?
no parliament of their own
C''mon Ben get your story straight. I thought your major gripe is that we have a parliament that only looks after the interests of (SE) England!!!!!
Go on THM,could you please post up some more of your "evidence is there,if we care to look" docs,I am off up our hills ( free to walk on responsibly,you lot should try it) early and could do with some light fiction/a good laugh to forget the early start.
C''mon Ben get your story straight. I thought your major gripe is that we have a parliament that only looks after the interests of (SE) England!!!!!
Yes, and the people of the Rest of England suffer just as much or more than we do in Scotland from the inequality of the Westminster system. My story is completely straight.
Yes right, of course the fiscal transfer data says completely the opposite but since when have Econ facts been reel ram to this debate!?!
Still with voting patterns unchanged and the case for iS debunked, silly stories are all that is left from here.
Yes right, of course the fiscal transfer data says completely the opposite but since when have Econ facts been reel ram to this debate!?!
Er, yeah, um, what?
Public transport spending per head:
London: £2000
North-East: £2
The English regions are incredibly badly served by the Westminster parliament.
Duckman, why waste hard facts on you? Just enjoy your walk, hate to spoil it with some home truths. Like right to roam, you have your own version of mildly amusing fiction - 600 pages if it.
Keep going Ben, you might get there in the end.
Public transport spending per head:
London: £2000
North-East: £2
I think we've gone over this ground before on here, but Is that not a figure for public transport [i]infrastructure[/i] projects?
Therefore construction of a tram system or similar would show up in the figures, whereas an increase in subsidised bus services, would not...
Now, my experience of the North East, having spent a fair bit of my yout there, and my Mum living 15 miles from Newcastle, I'd happily argue that with a small population spread over large distances in rural areas, and only a couple of population hubs that really don't suffer horrifically from congestion, that spend is perfectly reasonable, and you can see why the money is being concentrated in the highly populated South East.
Consett doesn't need a tram, it needs a decent bus service.
However, unfortunately, I think your figures may have been superseded with the announcement of an expected £300m upgrade to the Metro in Tyne and Wear, population 1.1million 😳
Ben there are working trams in Manchester and Sheffield on only £2 per head. It makes you wonder how the SNP wasted all that money in Edinburgh.
manchester and sheffield are not in the North east?
the SNP had a manifesto pledge to scrap the trams but they were outvoted - it was not their fault or their decision
Ben's figures are incredibly misleading as he did pick the lowest figure in an area with very low population density. But then again when you are a nat you have to be an expert in spinning information because there are no facts to back up independence.
Yes ben did pick the lowest area to highlight his point but at least it was true.
when you are a nat you have to be an expert in spinning information because there are no facts to back up independence.
This is only the teeniest weenist bit weakened by the fact you were wrong ...heal thyself.
Ben there are working trams in Manchester and Sheffield on only £2 per head. It makes you wonder how the SNP wasted all that money in Edinburgh
The SNP voted to stop the tram project but as a minority govt were defeated by a coalition of the other parties.
Yet FNF says Ben's figures are
incredibly misleading
Yes ben did pick the lowest area to highlight his point but at least it was true.
Nope, turns out it wasn't:
[i]Public spending on transport in London is relatively high, both in terms of total spending, and on a
per head basis (£774 per head in 2010/11). After London, the two regions with the highest spending
on transport in 2010/11 were the North West (£337 per head) and the East (£328 per head). [b]The area with the lowest spend per head was the South West (£212 per head).[/b] [/i]
well he stands corrected then on the exact figure if not the point 😉
FWIW I shall be careful to not take these nasty nats at face value next time
The disparity is mainly in the form of London versus other regions,rather than a north/south divide.
South west was lowest at just over £200
Spending per head in London (the top light blue line in the graph below) has increased significantly since 2008?09,
I think his point
The English regions are incredibly badly served by the Westminster parliament.
was broadly true - though of course the paper makes it clear most of the disparity from london is due to spending from Local authorities and public corporations
rather than central govt
Why did you not just say this to him rather than me?
I shall give it a score draw
EDIT : FOR YOUR EDIT the east is not the north east to be clear nor is it the south east either tbh i am not sure where them mean with the east.
bencooper - MemberOn the contrary, I think it's the English who have an identity crisis - no parliament of their own, a flag that's partly been taken over by unsavoury elements, retreating from Europe into an isolationist stance.
Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post
duckman - MemberYup,but point it out and they get offended. Maybe if they spent less time trying to interfere in other countries?
Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post
Presumably you don't think that the Scots "interfere in other countries" duckman but that the English do.
I'll take that as anti-English rhetoric, something which which have strongly denied being guilty of and yet have once again fallen back on in the Scottish independence debate.
You want this whole independence debate to be English vs Scots, and yet it isn't, it's Scots vs Scots.
And if you are defeated in September, as now increasingly looks likely, it will be by the Scots, the majority of Scots, not the English, or the Welsh, or the Northern Irish.
Yes ben did pick the lowest area to highlight his point but at least it was true.
Not so true after all 😉
Actually his point was still true as i have said above but it is not the lowest area. TBH, unlike you, I dont have a problem admitting Ben was wrong or that my statement about his statement was wrong.
Would you like to address your own double wrongness yet or just bluff your way through ?
I still think attacking "nats" when you were wrong on both counts was a bit weak tbh.
Its not like i attacked ninfan or unionists [ loosest sense no offence] when he pointed it out. Facts are facts and not accepting them or bluffing your way through being wrong , whilst being the STW way, paints a poor picture of someone IMHO.
Yup, I got the magnitude wrong - was gong from memory - but the principle stands. There are a lot of very big, very expensive infrastructure projects built in the South-East, but paid for by everyone.
I find English people to be oblivious towards most other nations and I think this winds up the smaller nations around us to a certain extent.
The smaller nations should stop caring what English people think if it winds them up so much.
Yes Ben, you may have noticed that Heathrow airport is bigger than those in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle - Its commonly referred to as a transport hub, So if you want to take the train from Edinburgh Cardiff or Cornwall to Paris, you go by London, yes it involves expensive infrastructure projects in one place, overcoming legacy issues that developed for myriad reasons, but its unlikely to change in the near future.
The key point of course is that it means that spend on the main 'hub' does benefit everyone, look at how many American tourists you get in Edinburgh as an example of the benefits of having an effective and connected system, and how money spent on Infrastructure in London benefits other regions.
I mean, we could put the national transport hub in Devon, but it would be a bit pointless placing it so far from the highest population density wouldn't it?
I suppose that in an Independent Scotland you'll be planning to move away from this will you? a full schedule of Direct Flights worldwide, rather than limited schedules and seasonal routes?
[quote=bencooper ]Yup, I got the magnitude wrong - was gong from memory - but the principle stands. There are a lot of very big, very expensive infrastructure projects built in the South-East, but paid for by everyone.
What is the tax take per head for different regions (let's include tax paid by companies for the sake of argument)?
Nope Ernie. It was a dig at the fact that the main no contributors to[b] this thread[/b] don't have a vote,yourself included,and are almost exclusively English. The only people posting anti anything rhetoric on here aren't Scottish,see Zulu's description of yes voters as "bellends" yesterday for example(or did you miss that,must have because you would surely have condemned it)
Strange that somebody like you who is quick to post insults based on racial stereotypes is so easily offended,maybe because you dish them out,you see them in every statement? Anyway, off out for the day,I will see what of my post you have cut and pasted when I return.
No one needs to cut and paste ducks, but you are a behaving like a true disciple of the deceitful one. Two posts in a row aimed at the man - how salmond-esque and appropriate. Still when the yS argument is as poor as it is hardly surprising and I am sure there is more to come.
"Nope Ernie. It's was a dig..."
There's a phrase for that!
With CMD going north of the border to talk to the "silent minority" (wonder why they are silent?) there will be some amusing headlines to come today......
Cameron coming to Scotland to tell us what to do again - I'm becoming more and more certain he's trying to lose this referendum.
There's this assumption that the "silent minority" will be No voters, but I meet people who are silent Yes voters sometimes the sticker on my car or shop window is the trigger for them to tell someone else they're voting Yes for the first time, Our Waitrose delivery driver* last week saw the Yes poster in the window and said "well done, I'd never dare to do that, but I'll be voting Yes too".
but you are a behaving like a true disciple of the deceitful one. Two posts in a row aimed at the man
😀
* Judge away
let's include tax paid by companies for the sake of argument)?
Yes lets otherwise your point wont work. That is where most Head Offices are and the registered address so without your caveat [ which is misleading] your claim wont hold water.
Two posts in a row aimed at the man
Thans god you dont do that now do you....yours troll apparently 🙄
and the full statement
you are a behaving like a true disciple of the deceitful one. Two posts in a row aimed at the man
Its is one of the best pieces of satire i have ever read though ...its not like you ar eplaying the man there now is it THM ... oh the irony
Absolutely brilliant 😆 😆 😆
Wish I could get Waitrose deliveries gits wont come this far out
see Zulu's description of yes voters as "bellends" yesterday
I was talking about your post, not Z-11's, or anyone else's. Is pointing out someone else's behaviour to justify your own someone that you've learnt from the pupils you teach ?
You clearly engaged in anti-English rhetoric when you accused the English as a nation of being sensitive to criticism and interfering in other countries.
Now I'm not bothered by that but it obviously exposes as false your claim that you don't base any of your arguments in favour of dependence on a attacking the English, something which I accused you of earlier on this thread and but which you strongly denied.
somebody like you who is quick to post insults based on racial stereotypes
Accusing someone of racism is a serious allegation and the mods would take a dim view if any cases were reported, the offender could expect a ban or at the very least a warning.
If I have been quick to post insults based on racial stereotyping then it would be reasonable to expect that my posts have been reported as racist by someone. I have received neither a ban nor any warnings for posting comments in which I insult people based on racial stereotyping.
You really should stop making stuff up and resorting to false allegations concerning other people's behaviour in an attempt to justify your own, it's rather immature.
Zulu's description of yes voters as "bellends" yesterday
I never said that - read again, I think you'll find it was Konabunny who suggested Scotland was full of bellends, I merely pointed out that the referendum would conveniently settle that question!
You clearly engaged in anti-English rhetoric when you accused the English as a nation of being sensitive to criticism and interfering in other countries.
That was anti-English rhetoric? ****ing hell, he's right, you are a bunch of sensitive soles. 🙄
No he is not , each time he has posted on the point he says he is not bothered.
[quote=Junkyard ]
let's include tax paid by companies for the sake of argument)?
Yes lets otherwise your point wont work. That is where most Head Offices are and the registered address so without your caveat [ which is misleading] your claim wont hold water.
Well it's also where a lot of business is done. I'm quite happy for you to work on the proper tax model rather than the Amazon one and only count tax on money earned there, not tax on money earned in the rest of the UK going through a head office there. Not to include taxes on business done in the SE would be equally deceptive.
I'm not necessarily expecting the proportion of the tax take spent on PT to be lower in the SE than in the SW, simply pointing out that spending more per head there on PT doesn't necessarily mean the rest of us are paying for it. I thought we'd already done that argument to death concerning taxes in and taxes out in Scotland! I'm also no more of a fan of things being London centric than anybody else.
spending more per head there on PT doesn't necessarily mean the rest of us are paying for it
agreed but we probably are 😉
40% of funding for Crossrail is coming from outside London, for example. That works out at about £53M from taxpayers in Scotland, I reckon.
goes of to check Ben's figures before commenting 😉
😀
(£14.8bn x 40% x 9%)