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another untruth ducks as you are now proving exactly, Still pick a specific point and happy to debate it. Obviously, the status of a currency is out of the question as the truth is too unpalatable, control of monetary and fiscal policy ditto. Feel free to pick any specific "lie" that I have made that has been questioned and not answered. Obviously I ignore the troll, so that doesn't count. But any others would be valid.
That is what I have done who AS - focused on the lies and the deceit of which there are many and with specific references. Hence the 5k posts!
Why Ben, because the anti-English undertone is blindingly obvious, that's why!
Why Ben, because the anti-English undertone is blindingly obvious, that's why!
I must be blinded by it, then - I should ask my English-born partner, father and father-in-law why they're all voting Yes.
Find me any Yes advert, poster, leaflet or website which is anti-English. Because I pay pretty close attention, and I haven't seen one.
Nice poster Ben.
[img] 
[/img]
[i]First, it is an outright and foul insult to every low income parent and child in Scotland and the UK, through its depiction of them as dirty, scruffy and negligent.
But here is a second reason to be furious about the poster: the figure of 100,000 extra children in poverty by 2020. This is in direct contradiction to the Scottish government’s own White Paper which tells us that by the same date the increase will be by 50,000.
Any single child being forced into poverty is of course an outrage, and certainly 50,000 is too high, but the point here is that there is a discrepancy of 100 per cent between the Scottish government and Yes Scotland.
In the poster, the small print says in advocating independence:
“There is only one guaranteed way to reverse the growing number of children living in poverty.”
This is a lie.
There are other ways; above all changes in government policy at a UK level, which would also benefit children in poverty in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This may require a change of government, but is does not require independence.
And there is no ‘guarantee’ that independence will reverse the trend.
Anyone reading the poster would imagine that there is a comprehensive, fully-costed proposal for the alleviation of child poverty on the table. However, like the rest of the SNP White Paper, all we have is vague assertions on child poverty: no costings, no projections, no guarantees at all.
The public should now know:
[b]They will use disgraceful images of people in poverty which suggest that low income families neglect their children, and allow them to go dirty and a scruffy, if they think it will win votes.
If there is any doubt, Nationalists and their misguided supporters will choose the highest available figure to inflate their claims.
They will make claims which are unsupported and they know they cannot support, and when asked to do so, they will claim it is not in the public’s interest to know about such things.[/b][/i]
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/05/how-much-am-i-angry-about-yes-scotlands-latest-poster/
Fortunately there are none down here! But loads in the rhetoric and that is audible and visible to all.
Yup, I read that blog a week or two ago. He misses the fact that the figure comes from the CPAG (who aren't connected to the Yes campaign or Scottish government). Then he has a wishy-washy hope that a UK government will suddenly reverse it's policies to change the situation - that would be lovely, but it's not going to happen as all the main parties have already committed themselves to further cuts.
t's you that's confusing Westminster and England/English - the implication is only obvious to you.Westminster has MPs from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - we want independence from the whole lot, not just the English ones.
Who was the Act of Union between?
So wanting to dissolve the Act of Union is anti-English? Taking it a bit personally, no?
Then he has a wishy-washy hope that a UK government will .....
You however in contrast have a wishy-washy hope that an "independent" Scottish government will magic everything ?
You however in contrast have a wishy-washy hope that an "independent" Scottish government will magic everything ?
We have a government which has at least said they're going to try.
So wanting to dissolve the Act of Union is anti-English?
I'll ask again, who was the act of union between?
Because I think the answer pretty much craps on your "It's nothing to do with England" claim 🙄
We have a government which has at least said they're going to try.
Erm, Child poverty in the UK has been falling
I'll ask again, who was the act of union between?
The parliaments of England and Scotland. So if you want to think that dissolving it is anti-English then surely it's also anti-Scottish? Is it also anti-Welsh and anti-Northern Irish as well, or is it only anti-English?
Really, it's none of those.
The poster does not use the word English clearly. But the implication is blindingly obvious. If we do not vote for independence from Westminster 100,000 will live in poverty. That is clearly a crock with false causation.
It might or might not be true, but your attempts to turn it into some sort of English-bashing slur are pathetic.
We have a government which has at least said they're going to try.
You know of a government which claims it isn't going to try to reduce child poverty ?
Name me this government ?
An SNP government is no different to a Tory or Labour government in this respect, they will all claim to be concerned with child poverty and all intend to do something about it.
As usual the SNP and their allies fail to provide a compelling argument to show how they will achieve their stated aims, relying instead on faith, hope, and wishful thinking.
Good post Ernie (edit good posts)
Ducks, you forget it takes quite something to unite Ernie and me normally but the constant BS from yS is often common ground. We are both still waiting for our answers many 100s of pages back. Of course, we are not holding our breath as they cannot be answered honestly.
So kona, insinuating that being part of a union with England will result in XXXk living in poverty is not an anti-English slur, really? I find it funny as it's so preposterous, but imagine how nowty nats would be if the argument was reversed.
So kona, insinuating that being part if a union with England will result in XXXk living in poverty is not an anti-English slur, really?
You really are taking this personally, aren't you? No, of course it's not anti-English. What did my English relatives living in Yorkshire do to cause child poverty? Nothing.
No, I am enjoying it in my tea break Ben.
Out of interest would you rate the poster
1. negative or positive?
2. truthful or untruthful (a lie as left foot forward are claiming)?
Ducks, you forget it takes quite something to unite Ernie and me normally but the constant BS from yS is often common ground. We are both still waiting for our answers many 100s of pages back. Of course, we are not holding our breath as they cannot be answered honestly.
That's interesting,does Ernie want to preserve the union so he can retire up here on his terms as well?
More misrepresentation - who has said that? You are on a roll ducks keep it up (not that you seem to need encouraging). Still waiting for the specifics but tea has finished now.....
1. negative or positive?
2. truthful or untruthful (a lie as left foot forward are claiming)?
1. Negative, I'm not a big fan of it.
2. I have no idea what the child poverty figures are, I'd probably ask the experts - like the Child Poverty Action Group.
does Ernie want to preserve the union so he can retire up here on his terms as well?
No, I believe in a democratic society in which all political and economic power is in the hands of ordinary working people. I reject the charlatans who falsely claim to have simular goals.
teamhurtmore - Member
More misrepresentation - who has said that?
You did,that and an education for your son.
Just been reading some of that CPAG report that predicts 100,000 more children in poverty by the end of the dacade
Interesting when you look at the list of contributors:
[i]Cailean Gallagher is a researcher at Yes Scotland. He is involved with Trade Unionists for Yes, Mair Nor a Roch Wind, and is a member of the Labour Party and Unite. He has worked with openDemocracy, co-editing the Restating Scotland debate and Fight Back! A Reader on the Winter of Protest, and was founding editor of the Oxford Left Review.[/i]
😆
It's weird that you didn't also quote the profile of the contributor to the CPAG report who follows Cailean Gallagher in that alphabetical list of contributors, Jim Gallagher. I wonder why:
" 😆 "
insinuating that being part of a union with England will result in XXXk living in poverty is not an anti-English slur, really?
Yes, that's absolutely correct.
A bit like saying "being in the European Union will cost 50,000 jobs" is not an anti-German slur.
I am a Scotophile
I think i can safely say all the scots on here, not to mention wee eck, are really feeling your love 😉
.Your double standards and lack of self awareness
TROLL. He wont feed you , its not that he knows he cannot defend himself.The evidence was in your two posts, you literally objected to what you had just done!! There was no defence hence the lame troll jibe and sticking your head in the sands and pretending you cannot see it.
ah here it is on time
Prefer misrepresentation or in one case simply trolling
You spout this lazy insult [ again oh the ironing and hypocrisy] - I bet the mods have declined your protest and NOT one other person has said this on here to me or on STW in general [ not even ernie in jest nor KB* ] You are bright enough to know you cannot defend yourself hence you dont even bother to try. Unfortunately you are not polite enough to not hurl the lamest of insults. You clearly do what you object to over and over again.
You seem to be getting upset when people question your points.
Poor THM the trolls are everywhere
* I am asking for it now
😀 😀
"Feel the hunger"
Kona, its not the same clearly, but not a bad point actually. You must have been reading Obama's recent speeches! Like falsely blaming Westminster for all Scotland's ails, there is lots of scapegoating going on globally right now. And Germany cops a lot if it!!
teamhurtmore - Member
.... Like falsely blaming Westminster for all Scotland's ails ...
No, it's simply the realisation that Westminster will look after its larger and more important constituencies and to them Scotland is an irrelevance except for what can be extracted from it.
Funny that B&Q think we can't do it ourselves 😉
Apparently changing a computer system and maybe repricing things if the currency changes is too challenging for a multinational company...
No, it's simply the realisation that Westminster will look after its larger and more important constituencies and to them Scotland is an irrelevance except for what can be extracted from it.
If there is a whining Scot event at the commonwealth games you are on course for a gold medal.
fasternotfatter - MemberIf there is a whining Scot event at the commonwealth games you are on course for a gold medal.
As opposed to the balanced,reasoned,measured posts of you and the rest of the English posters,none of whom even have a vote. Can you refute his point?
rest of the English posters,none of whom even have a vote.
I fail to see why posting that had any relevance. May be a point of fact, however implies that people from rUK should not be voicing their opinions.
If you think Yes contributors responses have been balanced and reasoned you are deluding yourself I see Yes stickers popping up everywhere. I have not seen a single Better Together poster or advert, and certainly don't use them here to back up what I feel. That poster of child poverty and it's portrayal of a Dickensian Scotland, and the official Yes video, where a young girl effectively tells us to "think of the children", are quite frankly crass examples of emotional blackmail, not worthy of serious use to back up an opinion.
I will say the official Yes camp is slick and intelligent. Intelligent, as it appears such tripe propaganda is winning support. What a worry!
It was a reply to somebody bringing race into it(again) But you knew that. We have examples such as Zulu's post on the poverty report complaining about a ys worker having contributed,yet ignoring the fact that [b]the very next contributor[/b] works for BT. Why would somebody who has no say in Sept go to the trouble of posting such an easy to call attempt at discrediting a report?
The flinging out of racial stereotypes on this thread have not come from the nationalists. I share your condemnation of using children,but note yours doesn't extend to the scaremongering vote no borders cinema ad that GOSH objected to last week. I don't like the tone that the yes campaign is adopting,but then it is astonishingly hypocritical for the no campaign to accuse anybody of scaremongering.
and the official Yes video, where a young girl effectively tells us to "think of the children"
Well, that's one reason I'm doing it - the alternative to "think of the children" is "think of ourselves" which is what a lot of the short-term No stuff is about.
The interesting thing about Yes is that it is so varied - there's the official campaign, sure, but there's also a huge range of other groups - Africans for an Independent Scotland, Radical Independence, the Scottish Socialist Party, etc etc. So there's not really one coherent media message, everyone's got their own take on it.
Whereas No have their Better Together campaign, and the very suspiciously funded Vote No Borders astroturfing effort. And, er, that's about it.
fasternotfatter - Member
"No, it's simply the realisation that Westminster will look after its larger and more important constituencies and to them Scotland is an irrelevance except for what can be extracted from it."
If there is a whining Scot event at the commonwealth games you are on course for a gold medal.
You have nicely encapsulated the Better Together policy and strategy in that one sentence.
You have nicely encapsulated the Better Together policy and strategy in that one sentence.
No, it was designed to mock and insult - no reasonable person would describe the Better Together policy and strategy as one designed to insult.
And the claim that for Westminster [i]"Scotland is an irrelevance except for what can be extracted from it"[/i] is equally a stupid comment which no reasonable person would take seriously.
It's clear that neither side has a monopoly over stupid comments on this thread.
no reasonable person would describe the Better Together policy and strategy as one designed to insult.
Now that is insulting and factually incorrect, like most of the tripe coming from the No side of the debate.
[img] 
[/img]
Now that is insulting and factually incorrect, like most of the tripe coming from the No side of the debate.
Thank you for correcting me with your reasonable and carefully thought out comment.
ernie_lynch - Member
...no reasonable person would describe the Better Together policy and strategy as one designed to insult.
Did you have a straight face when you typed that?
The grossly insulting, dishonest and threatening BT campaign has done a lot to drive people into the Yes camp despite BT having control over all the traditional news media except The Sunday Herald.
YS boys - you guys are two months too late, it's the 1st of [b]JUNE[/b] today. Or am I missing a new national celebration of comedy?
The weathers nice, it's a Sunday. If you are not in the Kirk go and have a ride. It should help.
no reasonable person would describe the Better Together policy and strategy as one designed to insult.
You're right - Better Together don't mean to insult.
However their patronising attitude, misrepresentation of the facts, spin and dubious sources of finance are insulting to the people they're trying to convince. It's pretty telling that no-one ever seems to go from Yes to No, all the movement is the other way, and comment after comment is that it's the Better Together strategy that's pushing people that way.
For example, take this advert:
[img] 
[/img]
Guaranteed? By whom? No party has committed themselves to any substantial more powers after a No vote. It's stuff like that that is insulting - treating the public like mugs.
athgray
I have not seen a single Better Together poster or advert, and certainly don't use them here to back up what I feel.
duckman
but note yours doesn't extend to the scaremongering vote no borders cinema ad that GOSH objected to last week
I cannot comment on an advert I have not seen. I would say that I am sure I would be as appalled by Better Together adverts as Yes voters should be about theirs. Also, I reckon the Yes campaign and propaganda is more visible, so in the run up we will probably see a lot more Yes tripe than Better Together tripe.
Are we to expect a poster dramatizing a victim of domestic abuse, with a line telling us that this can be stopped with a Yes vote?
We have already heared Scotland described as a victim of domestic abuse, too scared to leave.
Ben - wonder if you can tell whats going on there?
If you think Yes contributors responses have been balanced and reasoned you are deluding yourself
Is it your suggestion that two wrongs make a right -- TBH it is incredibly daft to attempt to defend your own behaviour by just criticising some others groups behaviour - not least when you have just done exactly what you accuse them of
If there is a whining Scot event at the commonwealth games you are on course for a gold medal.
Why not be an example rather than follow THMS approach of doing what you object to then complaining about it?
no reasonable person would describe the Better Together policy and strategy as one designed to insult.
Ah right so objecting to you means one has to automatically be unreasonable ....nice tactic 😕
IMHO we could debate whether it goes as afar as insulting [ IMHO both campaigns extremists do this but neither campaign quite does it] as it is just designed to spread fear 😉
There are insults on this page for example
We plan to maintain shared services in areas where it makes sense to do so, and where it is in the interests of both Scotland and the rest of the UK, such as:NHS Blood and Transplant
the Royal Mint
the Research Councils
Air and Maritime Accidents Investigation
some expert and technical advisory groups, for example the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management
the Green Investment Bank
the Hydrographic OfficeWhere functions continue on a shared services basis, there will need to be adjustments to the governance of these bodies to ensure there is appropriate accountability to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. These can build on arrangements already in place for cross-border bodies dealing with devolved matters.
Get real nats you are going to be a separate nation that the UK will be competing with. As if the UK is going to make "adjustments to the governance of these bodies to ensure there is appropriate accountability to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament". The only thing the UK will be doing is waving goodbye.
Clearly they will cooperate with a neighbour over mutually convenient matters though we could debate what these are.
You should have a look at Ireland to see how much the UK cooperates with a foreign gov on an Island from energy distribution to the RNLI there are many shared island bodies and some political ones
Scotland cooperates with NI and ireland over renewables and they all cooperate with Wales [ interreg] but I will see if you can be arsed googling for that. I suspect facts dont matter much to you.
Your posts are so full of contempt I am struggling to work out why you care [ please do not mistake that for me actually asking you a question/wanting to read some more of your contempt filled views]
teamhotair- Member
YS boys - you guys are two months too late, it's the 1st of JUNE today. Or am I missing a new national celebration of comedy
I forgot,in your fevered imagination,the no campaign is "pretty tame." Feel free to call me a liar for reminding you that you stated that. Still how dare we vote on our future in a way you don't like when you might plan on moving up here?
Ben - wonder if you can tell whats going on there?
That's the Vote No Borders Facebook page - what am I supposed to be looking at?
Though this caught my eye:
We asked you what you would miss most if Scotland were to separate. Kevin H told us what he thought."I will miss walking the St Cuthberts Way, hearing similar accents, learning about cultures and historical traditions and realising you live in Great Britain a great nation made up of four similar nations and a range of islands."
Someone else who seems to think that after independence, Scotland will drift off into the North Atlantic, we'll all start speaking Gaelic, and we'll never be able to visit England again. Sounds like an elderly friend of my mother who is voting No because she's worried she won't be able to go to Scarborough any more.
Someone who does not know that great britain is three nations
If you want to worry about losing your heritage at least learn what it is ...numpty.
Junkyard I did google cooperation between ROI and the UK and there is the RNLI, a couple of governmental councils and some cooperation on energy as there is with other European countries though. My problem is the SNP making a number of assumptions about what the UK is going to do after Scottish independence. There is no agreement in place for this wish list of shared institutions but I suppose it helps to stop Scots from worrying about the disruption and costs involved with independence. If Scots don't mind being misled by the SNP then good for them.
As for contempt, how about the contempt that is shown for Westminster by the nats on here? Is that Westminster the building, the MPs that work there or the whole UK political system? The UK has the 6th largest economy in the world, they must be doing something right.
My problem is the SNP making a number of assumptions about what the UK is going to do after Scottish independence.
And then you make assumptions about what rUK will do afterwards with "wave"
As for contempt, how about the contempt that is shown for Westminster by the nats on here?
Every post you moan about something and then do it yourself:roll:
Pointing out other people do it is not defending your behaviour its is either right or wrong not right when you do it and wrong when they do it. A point lost on you and THM for some reason.
The UK has the 6th largest economy in the world, they must be doing something right.
China is second so they must to ...perhaps we should have a one party state then ? Linking the fairness of the political system wiht the economic susccess of the country is not that wise IMHO
That's the Vote No Borders Facebook page - what am I supposed to be looking at?
Look again
Vote no borders - official site:
vote no to borders - anti no borders site set up by cybernats
/p>
The comment you posted was from the fake site 😆
And then you make assumptions about what rUK will do afterwards with "wave"
I am big enough to admit I am wrong to make assumptions. Thanks for pointing out that you agree the SNP is also wrong to make assumptions as well, such as sharing institutions and a currency.
Every post you moan about something and then do it yourself:roll:
Feeling aggrieved is not showing contempt so we will have to disagree on this one. 😉
China is second so they must to ...perhaps we should have a one party state then ? Linking the fairness of the political system wiht the economic susccess of the country is not that wise IMHO
You are right again, I should not have linked the greatness of the UK to just the strength of our economy when there are so many other things to choose from. Isn't this one of those strawman (your new favourite word) arguments anyway? The fact is that the UK has a very strong economy and Scotland currently benefits from it. It will be a gamble letting wee eck loose with the Scottish economy and that is not an assumption.
I forgot,in your fevered imagination,the no campaign is "pretty tame."
Sorry which bit did you forget? That the No campaign is lacklustre or tame or the bit about my imagination? Do you need reminding?
Feel free to call me a liar for reminding you that you stated that.
Why would I do that? I think calling forumites liars is ill-becoming on a forum? Did you forget that too?
Still how dare we vote on our future in a way you don't like when you might plan on moving up here?
Why ever not? I like democracy and freedom of speech. Look at the fun we have with the yS attempts to explain basic economics. It's great, we keep a book of famous quotes! People should have complete freedom to make fools of themselves......
I hope that you managed nice rides, the weather is lovely!
That great British tennis player did a good job this morning too. Nice tense stuff, but hope he is not too tired for tomorrow. Another reason to vote NO.....wouldn't it be a shame if you didn't have someone from the Home Countries to cheer in the World Cup? 😉
Look again
Oh yes, that's pretty funny 😉
The comment you posted was from the fake site
Wrong, it's from the real one 😀
Thanks for pointing out that you agree the SNP is also wrong to make assumptions as well, such as sharing institutions and a currency
I do agree both sides lie and make ridiculous assumptions/claims/lies about what may or may not happen afterwards.
Nice attempt to side step the point that if you wish to complain about something then you should not do it yourself. Most people would not need this pointing out to them.
Isn't this one of those strawman
I only repeated what you said using China as the example, if it is one it is your straw man 🙄 Personally I would say your point was a non sequitur and a reductio ad absurdum [ at a stretch] from me. That is China does great economically but this does not mean [ nor does it naturally follow] its political institutions are great [ nor does it for westminster]. I have gone into enough depth for you to understand what the words mean.
I think calling forumites liars is ill-becoming on a forum?
You seem happy to call me a troll despite the fact no one else agrees with you. Thankfully that is just something that is just not true* and not an actual lie.
Its also important to remember we can call anyone a liar as long as they do not post here.
Murray is only British because he is not English, everyone knows this.
* Again i think you must have reported me by now[and had it turned down] so what would you describe that claim as if not untrue? What do you suggest we call someone who repeats a claim they know to be untrue? I dont want to be accused of "ill becoming behaviour" as well as trolling so I am happy to go with your suggestion here.
Ben
Read it and weep
It appears this post is a spoof from a spoof site, many have been fooled on FB and twitter, Yes H & L apologies to all who have been fooled with us.
Bella Caledonia confirms
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/05/02/astroturf-democracy/
.I do agree both sides lie and make ridiculous assumptions/claims/lies about what may or may not happen afterwards.
Nice attempt to side step the point that if you wish to complain about something then you should not do it yourself. Most people would not need this pointing out to them.
There is a big difference between someone on a forum making an assumption and the potential government of iScotland doing the same and potentially misleading voters.
I only repeated what you said using China as the example
No you took my comment and spun it in a negative manner away from the original meaning without answering or countering my assertion, pretty much the definition of a strawman. The US, Japan, France and Germany all have stronger economies than the UK and you could have used them as an example if you wished but China was the only negative choice available to you. The point I made was that Westminster or to be more precise the various governments that have worked there have guided the UK into having the 6th highest GDP economy in the world, I think that is pretty good going for a country of around 60 million people. Do you not agree that vilifying Westminster is juvenile and petty or is everything that happens in Westminster really deserving of contempt? Things that Westminster can be proud of include the welfare state, NHS and one of the highest foreign aid budgets in the world.
God is this still running.......at the end of the day 'if' Scotland vote yes at the referendum then they can still chose to use the pound as a national currency however, Westmininster has stated if they do they will have no say in fiscal policy.......
.......does it really need 151 pages to say this?
Surely we're all in agreement that George Osborne is a horses arse who spouts the biggest load of horseshit ever.
Clearly yes....on and monetary policy as well don't forget. Worth repeating as it's clearly not sunk in yet!
****an, it must be bloody worrying if your guys can't out point a horse's arse in a factual argument. How can he understand basics better than the higher (?) quality MSPs? Dear, oh dear, oh dear.....
Wan it is not just GO though it is the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems all saying no to currency union as well as the majority of people in the UK according to polls. A currency union does not make sense to the UK I am afraid. I am sure there would be no problem setting up a Scots pound.
Don't forget central banks as well....
Odd, that the one currency option that maximises independence of policy (as proposed in the BoD) has yet to be aired. We have the Euro, then £, then even a shadow £ peg but yet we still have to have the S£. Now, I wonder why that is...........?
African or Indian stools?
Don't you need your own currency and central bank to join the Euro?
That was page 23 I think.... 😀
Wan it is not just GO though it is the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems all saying no to currency union as well as the majority of people in the UK according to polls. A currency union does not make sense to the UK I am afraid. I am sure there would be no problem setting up a Scots pound.
Have you ever negotiated with a Scottish person? I have very little doubt that the SNP does not want a currency union. They are probably playing a political game to try and show that the Westminster government are a bunch of nasties who want to screw Scotland over. From where I'm sitting it seems to be working.
The SNP are more likely to say there will be a currency union because it is such a big issue to Scots.
In truth the SNP does not care whether it gets a currency union or not. All it seeks is a cross against Yes, but they know the people of Scotland would like to keep the UK pound as it stands. Put forward the case everything will change, but nothing will change and all will be well.
BenRead it and weep
Ah, I get the confusion - I thought you were talking about the second quote I posted, about not being able to walk St Cuthberts Way any more.
Shows how hard it is to tell real from spoof posts from them...
I have very little doubt that the SNP does not want a currency union.
So should we treat all the main policy recommendation (especially those not only in the best interests of iS but also in the interests of the rUK apparently) in the same light. Perhaps we have indeed found some common ground after over 5k of posts!
ATG, it's the power they crave above all else hence the flip flopping in policies depending on the wind. Treat facts and the people of the Uk with equal disdain. Your right, wan, the tactic has had some success but fortunately not yet with the majority of your canny countrymen.
The thing that people really need to remember is that the question being asked later this year is not "Should the Scotland be an independent country governed by the SNP?", but "Should Scotland be an independent country?" Massive difference in those two questions, but people are tending to base their views on the SNP running an indy Scotland. The referendum question has bugger all to do with the SNP.
So should we treat all the main policy recommendation (especially those not only in the best interests of iS but also in the interests of the rUK apparently) in the same light. Perhaps we have indeed found some common ground after over 5k of posts!ATG, it's the power they crave above all else hence the flip flopping in policies depending on the wind. Treat facts and the people of the Uk with equal disdain. Your right, wan, the tactic has had some success but fortunately not yet with the majority of your canny countrymen.
As above, it's not about the SNP. I for one suspect that the SNP would be out on their ear post independence and we'd revert back to coalition governments.
There is a big difference between someone on a forum making an assumption and the potential government of iScotland doing the same and potentially misleading voters
I said both sides and you talk of one - why? There was me thinking you were biased eh. Both side means both sides ie yes /the scottish govt and no and the UK govt. Would you like to claim the UK govt has not done the same in the week when even the source criticised them for fiddling his figures? TO mention only one when i said both is to show your bias
No you took my comment and spun it in a negative manner away from the original meaning without answering or countering my assertion,
No i did not i simply replaced Uk with china and 6 th with 2nd
[b]The UK has the 6th largest economy in the world, they must be doing something right.
[/b]
China is second so they must to
It is not in any way shape or form a straw man [ I told you what it was] and your description of a straw man is poor
I will make it simple for you here
A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. [b]To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.[/b]
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition [b]by covertly replacing it with a different proposition [/b](i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition
The first of these would be impossible for me to do given I quoted you
The second was not done at all either
We will continue to disagree but at least learn what a straw man is if you wish to claim it was deployed.
The SNP are more likely to say there will be a currency union because it is such a big issue to Scots.
yes they are liars- they are politicians.
GO though it is the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems all saying no to currency union
Well who would not trust them when they say something eh 😯
Did you hear them this week [ ok lab were not involved in this] using figures that the source said they had abused by a factor of x 10 for an example of just how noble and honest they are
Leaks suggesting currency share is still on the table etc
It is almost as if they are lying politicians everywhere in all parties in all countries.
you need some serious blinkers to think one side is a paragon of truth telling virtue and the other lot liars
Junkyard you don't like to accept you are wrong do you. I accuse you of using a strawman and then I get a flood of them from you. 🙄
Did you hear them this week [ ok lab were not involved in this] using figures that the source said they had abused by a factor of x 10 for an example of just how noble and honest they are
Leaks suggesting currency share is still on the table etc
Oh so we should never believe any politicians ever because they have lied in the past. The leak from one person, supposedly Vince Cable, hardly negates what the others have said unless you are massively biased. Why is the currency union so important to you?
athgray. If you think Yes contributors responses have been balanced and reasoned you are deluding yourselfJunkyard. Is it your suggestion that two wrongs make a right -- TBH it is incredibly daft to attempt to defend your own behaviour by just criticising some others groups behaviour - not least when you have just done exactly what you accuse them of
JY, it was put forward by a Yes supporter that No views expressed were not balanced or reasoned, so for balance and reason, I expressed my opinion that Yes supporters views were not balanced or reasoned. Is there anything wrong with this? In all honesty I am not balanced on this subjest, but look at what I write. You may not agree with me, however plenty of reason goes into my posts on this subject. I reckon like you, both official campaigns leave a lot to be desired, however if people use Yes Scotland information in support of an argument, it is easy to knock it down.
Ben, few think we will not be able to go to Scarborough after a Yes vote, but what is sad is that it seems so many do not care to hear about scarborough. (I am a bit fond of Scarborough. Had good holidays there in my youth). I do not intend to come across as curt ben, however your posts come across as the most frustrating of all. You are clearly well versed politically, more so than myself, with plenty to add, and perhaps more links to proper information beind behind the Daily Fail style campaigns would be more useful than links to crass posters and adverts
Junkyard you don't like to accept you are wrong do you.
How would you know you have yet to prove I am wrong.
I accuse you of using a strawman and then I get a flood of them from you.
Yes that is exactly what has just happened here. it is not that your minor point was proved to be false, that you dont recognize a straw man when argument either - Man I told you what kind of argument it was 🙄
I only hope you can find it in your heart to be as compassionate as you are clearly wise.
[b]We will continue to disagree but at least learn what a straw man is [/b]
The leak from one person, supposedly Vince Cable, hardly negates what the others have said unless you are massively biased.
Two points
1. I said both earlier and you discussed one and you want to accuse me of bias
2. Its has got nothing to do with Vince as it was the treasury report.
I expressed my opinion that Yes supporters views were not balanced or reasoned. Is there anything wrong with this?
Only if you accept that it is true for [b]some [/b]on both sides. If you mean them all then yes it is just bias.
I reckon like you, both official campaigns leave a lot to be desired, however if people use Yes Scotland information in support of an argument, it is easy to knock it down.
So it is ok to use treasury figures but we should ignore only the yes campaign?
Clearly there are examples on both sides where the figures are nothing but spin and wishful thinking. Which you focus on is decided by your own views not really the facts presented.
Both sets of "official" figures are not things I would trust tbh
There are truths in some of what they both say and lies in some of what they both say as they are presented to serve a political agenda and manipulate to do such. They are, after all , politicians on all sides.
but what is sad is that it seems so many do not care to hear about scarborough
I do agree - in fact one of the few good cases to vote No that I've heard is that working-class people in Glasgow have more in common with working-class people in Manchester than they do with politicians in Edinburgh. I think it's a pity that the No case has been taken over by the Tories (and the Tory-wannabes who call themselves Labour), the socialist case for the Union is the only really positive case I've heard.
However, my answer to that is to ask why it stops at the borders of the UK. Why not include the working-class people of Madrid, Cologne or Marseilles? My other answer is that the system is broken, it's not fixable from within.
one of the few good cases to vote No that I've heard is that working-class people in Glasgow have more in common with working-class people in Manchester than they do with politicians in Edinburgh.
We plan to do a Crimea once you have independence
Insert AS/Putin joke here
The fact is that the UK has a very strong economy and Scotland currently [s]benefits from[/s][b] is part of[/b] it.
It will be a gamble letting wee eck loose with the Scottish economy and that is not an assumption.
Elections are always a gamble. Elections to a new assembly in a new state are even less predictable. Why assume that Salmond and the SNP would win them?
Don't you need your own currency and central bank to join the Euro?
I don't know, do you? Do you need to join the ECB to use the Euro?
[url= http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-browns-vision-scotland-ex-pm-3634763 ]Brown says Yes to currency union[/url]
The man who presided over the financial crash supports sharing the pound, so that settles the argument, it's a dumb idea that going to leave us all poorer. 🙂
Vote YES for the X£