[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

It means exactly what it says and makes no mention of collapse- it says it will cost more and even you accept this with the statement

it could go to NHS England for more money

It is a complete straw man and /or utter stupidity, to claim it states the NHS will collapse without scotlands money.

Let us get this back on track shall we. iScotland will not have the same access to healthcare in the UK that it does at the moment. Wan has provided figures that prove it will only cost the whole of the UK £8 million and that is not totally money down the drain because it means that services will not have been provided therefore less cost. iScotland will be able to get these services from the UK on a case by case basis or it can go anywhere else for them. What Scotland will lose is access to UK wide seamless healthcare.

Let us get this back on track shall we.

What Scotland will lose is access to UK wide seamless healthcare.

What does that mean? Scots won't get treatment when visiting England?

It seems reasonable that the UK NHS will take Scottish patients in return for payment. I suspect there be a bit more beaurocracy (ie delay) to get treatments approved but that should be about it.

iScotland will not have the same access to healthcare in the UK that it does at the moment.

Any evidence for this?

Wan has provided figures that prove it will only cost the whole of the UK £8 million and that is not totally money down the drain because it means that services will not have been provided therefore less cost.

iScotland will be able to get these services from the UK on a case by case basis or it can go anywhere else for them. What Scotland will lose is access to UK wide seamless healthcare.

Any evidence for this?

It would not be a cost to the rUK of £8m, it would be a loss of £8m in custom for specialist departments in the rUK, which may be enough to not make them viable to continue running as they are.

Any evidence to support the idea that NHS Scotland gets seamless access to specialist departments in England at this moment in time?

I got the following from google.

[i]
NSD funds services provided in England through two distinct funding streams:
*a contribution to the NHS England for Scottish access to highly specialist services which are provided on a UK basis. Access is ensured through a service agreement.
* by managing a pool of funds (risk share scheme) on behalf of NHS Boards to pay for individual patient referrals for a “prescribed” list of specialised services in England which are not included in the service agreement with NHS England.[/i]

What does that mean? Scots won't get treatment when visiting England?

Ben if you fall of your tricycle while visiting the superior trails south of the border I am sure we will patch you up and send you back. 😉

Just as with cost, you're confusing "seamless to the patient" with "seamless to the NHS".

I got the following from google.

Where is the dog chasing its tail GIF?

It seems reasonable that the UK NHS will take Scottish patients in return for payment. I suspect there be a bit more beaurocracy (ie delay) to get treatments approved but that should be about it.

Junkyard I don't understand a word you say. Now take the following statement,

THIS because the alternative costs rUK and adds costs for the reasons already stated
I doubt anyone will convince you and if they do you will just ask for us to get the debate back on track

It would appear most stuff is incomprehensible to you so why not just do what you normally do and just make up any old nonsense from the collection of words in front of you

no comment on forgetting you had linked to that before ...shall we just get back on track again 😉

There is nowhere for this to go and it will just get even ruder

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/independent-scotland-would-need-to-apply-for-eu-says-danish-minister-1.1808535

Not exactly a detailed article. If anyone has a link to the broadcast post pls.

The Dane joins the list of distinguished members of the 3Bs club. Quite an impressive list of members now. Wonder why!?!?

Did you read it ? It is as close to an appeal to authority as it is to a fact and i am nit even sure it is accurate.
The only direct quite is him saying there are " quite strict rules"- who would disagree?
He has only been the minister since Feb so it is unlikely he is an expert on this issue hence me claiming an appeal.
Like the poster I cannot find any proof or link re the accuracy of the article which is incredibly brief and not unbiased as it finishes with

Mr Lidegaard is correct that Scotland would formally have to pass such tests as a new candidate, rather than as a member state trying to renegotiate its membership under Article 49 of the European Union treaties, as the Scottish National Party has argued, even if Scotland would have no difficulty passing the tests.

Agree with the poster we need more info and given the partisan nature of the article and limited direct quote , which clealry doe snot say what they claim, I cannot see why anyone would take it on face value and neither would THM if it did not support his view

More info needed IMHO but i would lean towards media BS if i had to say for definite just now

I have e-mailed his press people for an answer

I doubt I will get a reply but if i do I will pass it on

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b044bckh

17 minutes in

He seemed pretty clear about it!

[b]The Dane[/b] joins the list of distinguished members of the 3Bs club. Quite an impressive list of members now. Wonder why!?!?

Greenland?

I have always been impressed by your ability to find the obscurest of links - saddly they usually give me a kicking but no arguing with facts

17 34 - we do not have an official opinion on the issue - letting scotland in support or oppose

Absolutely clear as day that Denmarks position is to apply the coppehngaen criteria to Scotland as a new member state as they do to all

Cheers but i think you enjoyed it more than me 😉

The UK does not have any reciprocal healthcare agreements with other foreign countries

konabunny - Member
Will Scots be able to seek treatment at the specialist centre of excellence for head trauma after independence? Because all of this face palming is going to take its toll.

Especially after discovering we now have a UKIP MEP... 🙂

Will Scots be able to seek treatment at the specialist centre of excellence for head trauma after independence? Because all of this face palming is going to take its toll.

Not a problem for me - Glaswegian males are born with extra-thick foreheads, originally used for sparring over women.

Can't you just airbrush the UKIP MEP? That's the normal trick!

Looks a bit of a bruiser judging by the photo in the Scotsman this morning?

Can't you just airbrush the UKIP MEP?

Besides, it would just wash off in the constant horizontal rain.

😀 kona

A rising UKIP vote is generally good for yS - (1) the contrast between Scotland and rUK and (2) proves people are happy to swallow unsubstantiated BS. The more UKIP are accused of being racist the higher the vote. The more the lies of yS are exposed, the higher the polls. One of the interesting dynamics of the current political world.

Well, it's made me decide I don't care any more. I don't care if we get a currency union, I don't care if we get kicked out of the EU and NATO, I don't care if it costs me money. I want out.

That Euro election result showed me that those are all prices worth paying to get away from the toxic, xenophobic politics south of the border.

Did you say/mean "south" or "north" there Ben?!? 😉

A populiist anti-establishment/Europe vs a populist anti-establishment/Westminster/Tory

Hmmm......

Well, it's made me decide

Yes it was hard to tell which way you were leaning before so I am glad you have got off the fence.

It'll be interesting to see what it does to polling - I'm sure it'll harden the Yes vote, but what it'll do to undecided and No voters I don't know, quite a few No people have been crowing about Scotland getting a UKIP MEP - maybe that'll push more moderate No people away, one can only hope.

now we just need to clear up how THM would vote, I would ask but I dont want to be accused of trolling

UKIP, Watching Farage it is clear they share the same scriptwiter.

Still misrepresenting folk, Ducks? Any sign of me supporting UKIP/Farage in either style or content? Given the similarities with the DO, I doubt it somehow.

Nice edit. Well, based on what you post and seeing him on the news,the similarities are incredible. I was just waiting on him making up strange nicknames for politicians, you know,just like you do.

Still misrepresenting folk, Ducks

would you like to claim that your view of AS is balanced and not misrepresenting him?
Would you like to claim that saying that the SNP were worse than UKIP was not misrepresenting

It is not trolling to point out you do the very things you accuse others of - you even said DO in your post 🙄 You say troll as you know you can offer no credible defence of your behaviour on this thread.

FWIW I would never ever accuse you of being in the same camp as farage or UKIP. You are in no way shape or form a racist or a little englander and , this thread/issue aside, you are an entirely rational individual with factually based views that I rarely agree with.
you are not a fan of the EU but I cannot imagine you have ever considered voting UKIP either.

Thank you, glad you like it. Well 100% misrepresentation trend in tact ducks and without straining a muscle. If you can be bothered I would love to see any similarity - I am pro Europe, pro freedom of movement of people, pro immigration, pro the use of facts rather than lies. Granted I am anti a fixed exchange rate in Europe but that is for different reasons than Farage. Unlike the UK, Europe does not satisfy the criteria for an optimism currency area and for that reason the € will ultimately fail. It's just a matter if timing.

Still if you would like to present an actual fact, that would be refreshing. Vladimir and I are still waiting BTW.

tell them it happens just after you answer mine/ernies question about how the SNP are worse than the EU

Sorry for getting the EU wrong i mistook dislike of the Euro for dislike of the EU- sincere whether taken or not but I think we both know the answer to that one.

konabunny - Member
A bit racist of you to suggest the MEP's skin colour should be changed artificially.
Besides, it would just wash off in the constant horizontal rain.

The horizontal rain and midgies are why we Scots generally aren't concerned about immigration... 🙂

I think from now on we can ignore any promises/threats made by LibDem ministers. They won't exist after the next General Election.

Well, it's made me decide I don't care any more. I don't care if we get a currency union, I don't care if we get kicked out of the EU and NATO, I don't care if it costs me money. I want out.

That Euro election result showed me that those are all prices worth paying to get away from the toxic, xenophobic politics south of the border.

If I could vote, that would be the stongest argument for me too. The Westminster bickering on the EU is beyond belief, and now UKIP have had some success, it's going to get worse!

I wonder if UKIP's success is because folk are getting fed up of parties that pander to large corporations and legislate for their interests in return for large election fund donations.

What I want to know is how much of UKIP's success is down to the media - especially the BBC. Imagine what it would have been like if the Greens got as much airtime as UKIP.

What I've been noticing is that this is making people south of the border aware of what we've been saying for ages - the BBC is in no way impartial.

Of course it's the fault of the BBC that UKIP won a seat in Scotland. It's always the fault of the BBC. I read that somewhere.

BBC Scotland gave UKIP 4 times as much airtime as the SNP. You don't think that might have had some effect?

Looks like there is a possibility that the elected UKIP Scottish member fudged his address for the election.

[url= http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2014/05/20/where-does-david-coburn-live/ ]UKIP MEP dodgy address[/url]

Junkyard,thanks;saved me the trouble.It would seem that the no campaign are trying to get some mileage out of a UKIP MEP for Scotland. Wouldn't they be better worrying about the gains ukip made in their own country? Boom-tish!

It would seem that the no campaign are trying to get some mileage out of a UKIP MEP for Scotland. Wouldn't they be better worrying about the gains ukip made in their own country?

When you say "in their own country", I thought Scotland was their own country.

Are the No campaign, and half the Scots who support them, all English or Welsh then ?

ernie_lynch - Member
...Are the No campaign, and half the Scots who support them, all English or Welsh then ?

No, they're known as Daily Mail readers... 🙂

Ben it is not just the BBC that have given UKIP a lot of free publicity it is happening across the media regardless of political bias.

aye it is amazing how much some of the media have talked them up tbh

Was it ernie who pointed out the BNP high at a local election is greater than what UKIP have now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/26/european-elections-alex-salmond-ukip-bbc-video_n_5391239.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The DO was quite clear about the BBC's role in UKIPs success. Although for a change there was at least a grain of truth in what he was saying this time.

However, hIs ability to keep a straight face when avoiding DImbelby's point about the level of support remaining flat was brilliant even by his standards.

Nous attendons toujours......

I see AS has "gone off one one" again about the report which suggested iS would have a £1.5bn bill for duplicating government depart ers like tax (£750m alone) and DVLA etc. it's hard to know what the exact bills are going to be but they will be substantial.

It's interesting that UKIP got a Scottsih MEP, I suppose the SNP and Scotish Labour believe their pro EU stance represents the region (see what I did there 😉 ) but it's clear there is a body of voters worried about the EU. I just wonder how much greater that would be if voters felt adopting the euro was a real possibility

I don't get all of this anti EU sentiment. Continental cheese is fantastic and the women aren't half bad after you have got them to shave their arm pits.

All this hostility towards the BBC, blaming them for UKIP winning a seat?

Just a couple of months ago you were telling us how project fear were recklessly threatening to take it away - now you're saying you don't want it after all - make your bloody minds up 😆

it's hard to know what the exact bills are going to be but they will be substantially less than paying for trident .

FTFY

Well, it's made me decide I don't care any more. I don't care if we get a currency union, I don't care if we get kicked out of the EU and NATO, I don't care if it costs me money. I want out.
That Euro election result showed me that those are all prices worth paying to get away from the toxic, xenophobic politics south of the border.

Well, it's made me decide I don't care any more. I don't care if we get a currency union, I don't care if we get kicked out of the EU and NATO, I don't care if it costs me money. I want out.

That Euro election result showed me that those are all prices worth paying to get away from the toxic, xenophobic politics south of the border.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/25/neil-lennon-persecution-shames-scotland-celtic-manager ]Yep. All that kind of stuff is confined to south of the border.[/url] 🙂

PS: I thought you had already made up your mind, plus everyone's you had spoken to 🙂

Ukip are newsworthy because they are new.Hence coverage disproportionate to their vote.I console myself with the idea that this will be a high point for the provisional wing of the Tory party. Turnout was very low,people give a poo about general elections,that will be reflected in them being a footnote in history in a couple of years,hopefully just after nige gets jailed for fiddling his expenses.

UKIP have around for twenty years so the 'newsworthy because they are new' argument sounds a little weak. But I do agree with not being unduly concerned about UKIP now being a credible long term potent political force - for various reasons including the fact that they have no significant substance imo.

What, Farage is "not whiter than white" 😉 either. Another similarity. Perhaps they could enjoy doing time together then? Has Farage been cosying up to the "dirty digger" too?

konabunny - Member
Do you think it might be worth taking a breath and seeing the election in historical perspective? The UK has had centuries of stability. A novelty party getting a few euro seats is no reason to chuck a tanty and bin the lot.

If they get the balance of power, this is what Scotland has to look forward to.

[img] [/img]

That's not a very good picture of Lord Monckton, in fact it doesn't look anything like him.

Here's a much better one.

[img] [/img]

That's terrible Ernie,taking a picture of the poor man during his visit to the proctologist is low IMO. "Trampled bagpipe" is excellent mind you,but alas,factually incorrect as at anything up to £1200 a set,and us being tight,no Scot is going to leave them where they might get stood on.

"Trampled bagpipes" for a moment I was hopeful that geezer in the layby off the A82 had finally cracked and trashed his own [s]cat screeching bags[/s] bagpipes.

I'd say judging by Ernie's pic, he's trampled on some bagpipes, and a subsidy junkie is putting them where they don't belong.

But more likely it's an environmentalist engaging with one of the leading intellects of the No Global Warming set.

UKIP is popular because their one policy, leave the EU, is popular. This isn't purely a UK phenomenon of course, results have been similar across Europe, as I posted elsewhere in Spain and Greece it's the left wing parties than are anti-Europe, elsewhere it's the right. The common ground is that the EU is not popular and the one party speaking about that is UKIP.

The Scottish member has got off to a flyer. It would seem that gay marriage takes back the gains that "gay liberation or whatever you call it," have made,despite being gay himself. Oh, and the SNP are "a bunch of Edinburgh Advocates doing the Highland fling." This is going to be ace,in a car crash type of way.

Blame the BBC all you want but the truth is a significant amount of the Scottish people support their policies:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/seven-out-of-ten-scots-back-ukip-policy-on-immigration.24278719

For clarity not popular means circa 25% of the electorate, across the EU, vote for anti EU parties. Its not even all countries either the Dutch for example

It is is still a minority view.

the truth is a significant amount of the Scottish people support their policies:

MMMM which to put most weight on, it is a tough call

I'd quite like to see Salmond attempt the (Hoka) Highland Fling.

@Junkyard - the EU elections do typically have a modest turn out but our system of democracy can only count the votes actually cast. There might have only been 1 in 10 people who voted for UKIP the point is that it's more than who voted for the other parties.

There might have only been 1 in 10 people who voted for UKIP the point is that it's more than who voted for the other parties.

Are we talking Scotland or UK here? Edit, you are replying to Junkyard. I take it you mean Scotland,in which case they polled 10.3% of the vote,still well behind the main "other" parties.

TOTAL VOTES CAST

SNP 389,503

Lab 348,219

Con 231,330

UKIP 140,534

Green 108,305

LD 95,319

Britain First 13551

BNP 10150

NO 2 EU 6388

There might have only been 1 in 10 people who voted for UKIP the point is that it's more than who voted for the other parties.

it is not true for scotland which is what we are discussinf
It is true for rUK so it is another reason for them to leave then 😉

Well there is the comedy of AS speech coming up. Apparently highlights will include:

Scotland would become independent "in more promising circumstances than virtually any nation in history", the first minister is to say.

[b]according[/b] to Auntie. The fiscal deficit will no doubt be airbrushed then among other things.

The Scottish government will also unveil its own analysis, which it said would demonstrate "Scotland's financial strengths and the economic opportunities [b]that only come with independence[/b]".

And yet you will be proposing asking those despised Westminster Tories in a foreign country to set you economic policies. Wouldn't it be great, if they were straight just for once. If it can only come with independence, put that on the table.......unless it's that obvious why you won't!

Apologies - I was talking nationally, appreciate that this is a Scottish thread so not relevant. It seems logical UKIP is weak in Scotland as I imagine it's seen as very "English" and in any case you have your own nationalist party in the SNP ,whether the SNP is left/centre/right is irrelevant as its the nationalist argument which is important. I do see the Herald piece highlighted that immigration and EU law making was a concern is Scotland. I do fear the Scot's don't realise they will have to be totally EU compliant if they join post independence.

@tmh - the economic opportunities will include cutting corporation tax to levels at below/Ireland in order to encourage businesses to relocate to/remain in Scotland.

Amazon and Starbucks already planning a move to a greenfield site in Cumbernauld?

I was talking nationally, appreciate that this is a Scottish thread so not relevant

Lets no get too excited about UKIP's single Scottish MEP.

The polled fourth in Scotland, without the Lib Dem collapse they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting an MEP.

Its an entirely different situation to England where UKIP were first in every region except London

Its an entirely different situation to England where UKIP were first in every region except London

The SNPs message is about a Scotland for Scottish people's benefit of course run by Scots. That's exactly what Marine Le Pen says about France, all the dialogue and rhetoric is about about equal opportunity for all French, as per UKIP in the UK. In Spain and Greece the nationalist parties are from the left. It's not a left/right question but it is one about Nationalism and that's very strong in Scotland too.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10859064/Barclays-Independent-Scotland-likely-to-get-new-currency.html ]More support for a currency union[/url]

Front page of the Financial Times:

[img] [/img]

The Treasury manipulated the figures to make the cost of independence look [i]ten times[/i] bigger. If you're going to lie, may as well make it a whopper...

If true, that is as pointless as it is shocking. The case is flimsy enough - there was no need for stupidity.

Bloody politicians.

Never mind that what you doing disagreeing with me on helmet threads 😉
I do agree though it is the great thing about STW
FWIW i dont always wear a helmet but i always do the same as my kids - hypocrisy was what i objected to there. One of the areas where STW debates changed what I do.

TBH i was more interested in why Barclays reckon there is a 10 % chance of the Euro- seems a bit high tbh. Re the article we all know ALL politicians are lying bastards , that is not news to anyone.

@Rich I think its a very similar situation, the nationalist parties (SNP / UKIP) came first. It just showed itself slightly differently.

@ben - I read a couple of days ago the piece which suggested a max of £2.5 and a likely cost of £1.5 The reality is none of us really know, that in itself is an issue.

@junkyard, I'm surprised Barclays probability is so low, I think he euro is inevitable for an independent Scotland which joins the EU.

Anyone here have a view on Junckers (likely new EU president) stance regarding Scotland joining ?