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[quote=jambalaya ]@aracer I put original in quotes deliberately, perhaps I should have used longstanding.
Well yes, given the significant difference. Though to be honest I don't think 1995 exactly counts as "longstanding" either - that might reasonably apply to those countries who joined in the 70s (UK, Eire, Denmark) or 80s (Greece, Spain), but things had already changed by the time Sweden joined. The terms they joined under were broadly similar to those which would apply to Scotland, and as you seem to have missed it the last couple of times I mentioned it, they don't actually have any opt-out on the Euro, they simply don't meet the convergence criteria.
@aracer, understood. I stand by my point that the new EU membership process will, in my view, mean Scotland will have to join the euro immediately and sign up to the whole package of legislation without opt outs.
you might want to look at this jambalaya[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/a-25-year-gap-between-the-life-expectancy-of-rich-and-poor-londoners-is-a-further-indictment-of-our-unequal-society-9061888.html ]the independent[/url]
Granted looking at data over 10 -15 years is better than shorter terms but 30,50,70 years is better still.
Athgray, I fully agree and have consistently argued that the vote will be a lot closer than polls suggest and also agree about the effect of sporting events. One of the reasons why I have hoped that the NO campaign would finally start to up their game for all our sakes.
History shows us clearly that people often vote for things only to be sadly disappointed. Voting for sugar coated candy especially is as appealing as it is ultimately sickening.
Looking forward to hearing/reading the contorted mental and verbal gymnastics tomorrow. It should be a masterclasses in obfuscation. One for the scrapbooks.
@gordimhor - yes read that, it doesn't compare the uk to other countries and also it speaks again of the gap between rich and poor rather than the absolute levels. The UK isn't perfect but it's better than most in terms of equality. As for the life expectancy point that's far more complicated than a simple attempt to make rich v poor the decisive factor in life expectancy.
[b]athgray[/b]
England is portrayed as epitomizing the UK with its residents acting as a single homogenous voting block, blindly electing fools to piss over us all.
I can see why the SNP would do this, trying to frame the argument tin terms of the English v Scottish history, much more expedient than saying its the English, Welsh and Northern Irish who are oppressing us. Also conveniently ignoring the fact there was a labour government for 10 years with a Scot at its centre.
My point was that poverty and inequality are massive causes of breakdown and conflict in society. This article relates those points to the independence debate.
[url=.scotsman.com/news/gerry-hassan-the-fourth-most-unequal-country-in-the-world-1-2178654]uk 4th most unequal country[/url]
Also conveniently ignoring the fact there was a labour government for 10 years with a bunch of Scots at its centre.
FTFY.
I suspect that nationalist supporters are just as heterogenous as any other group.I absolutely do not believe that this is in any way a Scots v English issue. Nor is it a Scotland v UK issue. Lots of yes voters on here have explained their various reasons for voting yes. Mostly I would say a desire to try to create a fairer country as the westminster system is broken. I think many Labour supporters feel very let down by New Labour. Mind you since I havent voted Labour for 31 years I cant speak for them.
it's Ok the YES campaign have a video to reassure all the people who think things can't change
I suspect that nationalist supporters are just as heterogenous as any other group.I absolutely do not believe that this is in any way a Scots v English issue.
do you have the opinion polling for the resident non UK EU nationals who can vote in the referendum?
are the Poles going to vote differently to the Spanish? 😉
I can see why the SNP would do this, trying to frame the argument tin terms of the English v Scottish history,
Can you identify a point at which the SNP has actually done this?
gordimhor - Member
I suspect that nationalist supporters are just as heterogenous as any other group.I absolutely do not believe that this is in any way a Scots v English issue. Nor is it a Scotland v UK issue. Lots of yes voters on here have explained their various reasons for voting yes. Mostly I would say a desire to try to create a fairer country as the westminster system is broken. I think many Labour supporters feel very let down by New Labour. Mind you since I havent voted Labour for 31 years I cant speak for them.
Actually there'll be some for who it's and Scots vs English issue. I've recently met some. It actually resulted in me getting quite agitated. The problem that caused this agitation is the lack of recognition that it's not just Scots being let down by Westminster.
The article Gordimhor linked earlier is a perfect example really. And a good example if why I'm voting the way I am. I'm under no illusions that this will be some easy Sunday arvo picnic though, no mistake. Lots of risks, lots of unknown.
Earlier in this thread someone alluded to how well the poor have done over the last 50 years or so, which for me misses the point. They've done well relative to themselves, maybe. But it's relative to the overall wealth if the economy that counts. And since I've been alive the gap between rich and poor has done nothing but widen.
Mostly I would say a desire to try to create a fairer country as the westminster system is broken.
According to the World Democracy index the UK seems right up there with the best.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index ]Democracy Index[/url]
I can guarantee you that if Scotland do go independent then within a few years the Scots furthest from Edinburgh will be whinging that the Edinburgh system is broken - "they just don't care what happens to us up here in the Highlands". The grass isn't always greener you know.
In a true democracy, I would have thought that everyone in the UK gets a vote as to whether Scotland gets independence or remains part of the UK.
I wonder how that might pan out?
Could be a bit of a shock for the Bonny Scots, to realise that the majority of the English and Welsh don't give a rats and vote 'yes, please go and whinge at someone else about your valueless currency!'
Could be a bit of a shock for the Bonny Scots, to realise that the majority of the English and Welsh don't give a rats and vote 'yes, please go and whinge at someone else about your valueless currency!'
The ones that read the Daily Mail might, but those that think about things a bit more would be quite unhappy.
"One for the scrapbooks" eh? Listen, wee eck could start promising us unicorns as public transport and he would still be playing catch up with the no campaign on the BS front.You do realise they were named project fear after their threats that "an independent Scotland wouldn't get the bbc." Of course it is inconvenient for you to recognize that the no campaign are anything except a wonderful institution trying to point out the many lies told by that nasty man who is upsetting and spreading discontent among the PM's northern subjects.
Oh,and even if we are forced to take Oxford educated Tony Blair as a Scot,(and he fancied himself as a Geordie) to go with happy Gordon...10 years of one and a bit Scottish PM's v 297 years of English ones* what was the point you were trying to make jambalaya? And can you provide any evidence,as others have asked you for that it is a campaign based on historical hatred of the english? I realize the failure of so many of our southern contributors to read what reasons we have given on here for wanting a divorce has obviously led to some confusion,but it isn't that we have been taught to hate you by a clever SNP campaign.
*I am sure that there are several more Scots in there and as a history teacher I should take more interest,buts it's half term.
Could be a bit of a shock for the Bonny Scots, to realise that the majority of the English and Welsh don't give a rats and vote 'yes, please go and whinge at someone else about your valueless currency!'
^ *facepalm*
The ones that read the Daily Mail might, but those that think about things a bit more would be quite unhappy.
^ +1
As I seem to be missing the childish/Daily Fail-esque 'anti-anything-that-isn't-Welsh/English' gene that so many seem to have been born with, I'll be quite gutted if the United Kingdom were to no longer include Scotland.
"One for the scrapbooks" eh? Listen, wee eck could start promising us unicorns as public transport and he would still be playing catch up with the no campaign on the BS front.
I doubt it, but relax my tartan warrior. Enjoy the gymnastics - although perhaps I should call them Salmond Slopestyle to keep on the Olympic theme and recognise the twists and turns. Better than Salmond speedskating since the last few days have showed us that this requires folk to keep to the rules!
Of course it is inconvenient for you to recognize that the no campaign are anything except a wonderful institution
No, see above. Plenty of concerns about No campaign but at least they have woken up and gone straight for the facts at last. Although as I have said, you don't really need to say too much, just let AS condemn himself out of his own mouth. Read my lips, "we don't want independence, we want to be an adjunct to and in union with [s]Europe[/s] Westminster now." Hey, I thought that was what we didn't want?
Roll on the slopestyle. What time is the entertainment starting in Aberdeen? Do we need popcorn?
According to Alastair Darling, Sir Chris Hoy is a closet nationalist because he used the word "yes":
I think Brains is getting paranoid...
You do realise they were named project fear after their threats that "an independent Scotland wouldn't get the bbc."
In what context was it said? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
There are plenty of ex pats in Europe who watch the BBC via satellite. However, this is in breach of copyright and is technically illegal.
Are you suggesting that you will still pay your licence fee after a Yes vote?
If not, are you suggesting you will continue to watch without paying?
Why would you want such an anti Scottish broadcaster anyway?
In other good news, Paul Dacre has said he'll stop doing the Scottish edition of the Daily Mail if we vote Yes.
Listen, wee eck could start promising us unicorns as public transport
Probably would have worked out cheaper than the trams 😆
I particularly like the fact that 'project fear' now seems to include:
The Treasury
The Bank of England
The President of the EU
The Reptilians
Are you suggesting that you will still pay your licence fee after a Yes vote?
Yes, to the Scottish Broadcasting Company, who will make programmes or import them just like BBC Scotland do at the moment,
Yes, to the Scottish Broadcasting Company
So you won't get the BBC then!
What about those of us who will be happy enough to see Scotland leave the Union because of concerns about the long term effects of this continuing aggravation?
Just because we/I think both the UK & Scotland would be better served by separation doesn't mean we are Scottish-hating Daily Mail reading bigots thank you very much.
Ive no doubt Scotland can & will be successful as an Independent Nation, not wanting to be tied into a currency union with that Nation does not make me a bigot, or a bully for that matter.
So you won't get the BBC then!
Okay, if you want to be pedantic, then no. The shiny building on Pacific Quay will change one or two letters on the front. It'll likely have no effect at all on programming.
In other good news, Paul Dacre has said he'll stop doing the Scottish edition of the Daily Mail if we vote Yes.
There will a lot of disappointed Scots then, it's the 3rd best selling paper in Scotland!* 🙂
*Yes I know the Fail is the 2nd in England.
Back to Osborne - the Wall Street Journal thinks he's wrong too: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/02/14/how-scotland-can-keep-the-pound/
Pacific Quay will change one or two letters on the front.
Are you suggesting that the SBC will be able to make similar programs to the BBC? The BBC has a budget of something like £5 BILLION!
It will be more than change a few letters.
Ben, you did read the whole article in the link including the obvious "disadvantages" at the end? You appear to pick some odd things to support your case, or are you just checking that we are awake on a Monday morning? 😉
Hanke is referring to the idea of a currency board. In the simplest terms, Scotland would peg the new Scottish pound to Sterling one-for-one. It would be British pound, for all intents and purposes and there would be little that Osborne can do to stop it.
That said, there are some downsides:First, Scotland would cede monetary policy to the Bank of England.
Ben - This isn't a currency union. It's simply pegging to Stirling, it was never suggested that this wasn't possible.
Are you suggesting that the SBC will be able to make similar programs to the BBC? The BBC has a budget of something like £5 BILLION!
The BBC buys programmes from around the world, and sells the programmes it makes around the world. The SBC will do the same.
I'm sure the BBC will be quite happy to sell the SBC its programmes (just like it does to loads of export markets) just like the SBC will be to sell them to the BBC. You know that plenty of programming is made in Scotland and there is already an internal market in programming, right?
It's not pedantic to say the SBC won't be the BBC...but I wonder how they will stop people located in Scotland picking up the rUK signal. IIRC holland and Ireland got all the UK channels when it was analogue...is it still the same under digital?
Hanke is referring to the idea of a currency board. In the simplest terms, Scotland would peg the new Scottish pound to Sterling one-for-one. It would be British pound, for all intents and purposes and there would be little that Osborne can do to stop it.
That said, there are some downsides:First, Scotland would cede monetary policy to the Bank of England.
Ben - This isn't a currency union. It's simply pegging to Stirling, it was never suggested that this wasn't possible.
Ben, you did read the whole article in the link including the obvious "disadvantages" at the end?
Yes, read the whole article - I don't see having less risky banks as a major downside TBH.
Hanke is referring to the idea of a currency board. In the simplest terms, Scotland would peg the new Scottish pound to Sterling one-for-one. It would be British pound, for all intents and purposes and there would be little that Osborne can do to stop it.
That's an impressive proposal that combines all the costs of an independent currency AND of unilaterally adopting a foreign currency and none of the advantages of either!
The BBC buys programmes from around the world, and sells the programmes it makes around the world. The SBC will [s]do the same[/s] buy programmes from around the world.
Fixed that for you 🙂
@BenCooper - The point I was trying to make about the BBC was that the No campaign was labelled "Project Fear" for stating a fact.
What's wrong with fact?
bencooper - Member
Yes, read the whole article - I don't see having less risky banks as a major downside TBH.
Having less risky banks would be great, but that is not the point here. Not having a LoLR function makes them more risky not less. But obviously the banks would not remain "domiciled" in a country that didn't have that function, that would be extremely foolish.
Maybe this is wee eck's intention. Force RBS to relocate and turn the HQ into a new presidential palace. It has a good and appropriate track record in hosting hubris.
Fixed that for you
You don't want Waterloo Road or Question Time, then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_programmes_produced_by_BBC_Scotland
I can see your point about Mrs Brown's Boys - I doubt the SBC could give that away...
winston_dog - Member
What's wrong with fact?
It wrecks the script?
@BenCooper - The point I was trying to make about the BBC was that the No campaign was labelled "Project Fear" for stating a fact.
The No campaign labelled itself "Project Fear" - it was an internal name that got leaked.
You don't want Waterloo Road or Question Time, then?
You are joking aren't you?
QT is broadcast from all over the UK, that's half the point.
Waterloo Road I can honestly say I have never watched it and had to google it to find out what it was! I'm not a TV snob either! 🙂
As I stated earlier, it was about turning fact into an accusation of scare mongering not about the detail of TV production.
QT is broadcast from all over the UK, that's half the point.
But produced by BBC Scotland.