[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Sweden was one of the "original" EU members, the current EU new member rules will not allow Scotland to join in the same way Sweden or indeed the UK membership works. New members have no opt outs. Scotland will have to make a compelling case to be allowed to join and making comparisons with old existing members isn't going to get them anywhere.

@bencooper - passports are an interesting one. The UK is pretty flexible about multiple passports so I would imagine the UK may well let you keep your UK passport and you can apply for a Scottish one too. That way you would have freedom of movement within the EU even if Scotland didn't join / wasn't allowed in. I would imagine the SNP aren't so daft as to insist that Scots give up their UK passport as Alex wants his cake and to eat everyone else's, but they might.

@gordimhor - the "poor" in the UK have really done very well over the past 50 years, look around at the poor elsewhere, particular outside Europe. I don't agree with much Mrs T had to say but one point she made is that focusing on the gap between rich and poor shows you don't actually care about the poor being better off, you'd rather see them worse off if the gap was smaller. The fact is in society the rich have gotten richer whilst the poor's employment has been undermined by cheap production of goods in Asia etc.

In the Uk. Scots who now live in England, those with family in Scotland and business owners who do business/trade with Scotland mostly.

I thought they were all moving back to the mother country so they can vote YES 😉

If you asked the average rUK voter if they are happy giving away some sovereignty to Scotland post independence so the Scots can have sterling what do you think the response will be?

Factor in that they will be asked in 2015 to vote for a new UK parliament

Then add in a likely referendum of rUK to give the Ok (based on the "lock" on European treaty changes that impact sovereignty)

Where do you think the negotiations will be starting from?

As we go round and round the roundabouts, its worth noting the sign that we pass at the entrance - 'a currency union is in the best interests of Scotland' - there it is, in big bold capital letters - yS are 100% clear: WE DONT ACTUALLY WANT INDEPENDENCE since our analysis shows that it is not in our best interest.

By definition, unions are about [b]greater levels of interdependence[/b] and less independence. That is a simple truism. And its [b]interdependence of the most basic functions of government[/b] - controlling monetary and fiscal policy.

In his usual, unbalanced way wee eck with stand up tomorrow and talk about only one side of currency unions - reducing transaction costs and he will "dress this up" by calling GO/EB/DA/HM Tres notion (incorrectly) a "tax" on business. Conveniently, he will ignore the other side of unions - giving up independence - since that is counter to the whole debate. He will of course also use the three Bs and "assets". He may also have to add his mate's new retort "preposterous" as well? If only predicting the outcome of horse races was this easy!

Remember Mark Carney's penultimante sentance

Decisions that [b]cede sovereignty[/b] and [b]limit autonomy[/b] are rightly choices for elected governments and involve considerations beyond mere economics.

Could not be clearer - nothing about gaining sovereignty or increasing autonomy. Why? Because the yS proposal, at its core, involves ceding and limiting not gaining freedom at all. Perhaps the elephant is so big that the only thing to do is to ignore it completely?

A former European Court judge says Barroso is wrong:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20757450

As does the man who negotiated the UK's entry into the EC in the 1970's:

https://archive.is/37wSD

involves ceding and limiting not gaining freedom at all. Perhaps the elephant is so big that the only thing to do is to ignore it completely?

Or perhaps, even that is better than what we currently have.

Could not be clearer - nothing about gaining sovereignty or increasing autonomy. Why? Because the yS proposal, at its core, involves ceding and limiting not gaining freedom at all. Perhaps the elephant is so big that the only thing to do is to ignore it completely?

Show me a country in the world which doesn't have any international treaties and obligations, and I'll concede the point. By your logic, there's no such thing as an independent country.

Or perhaps, even that is better than what we currently have.

What, being part of a stable and successful Union with a worldwide influence, yet still having a reasonable level of autonomy but with zero risk attached?

THM, don't know if you saw Barosso on Marr this morning - he was making some good points about how fiscal integration in the Euro area, depended on deeper political integration,

good quote: [i]The solidity, the credibility, of a currency, depends on the solidity of the institution or political construction behind it [/i]

There are only degree of independence of course. Do you want more or less? Possibly the worst case scenario is the one being offered. Its the worst of both worlds.

i didnt see it ninfan - but there is nothing new. The € has failed to date because it has failed to deliver monetary AND fiscal union (oh and it doesn't satisfy the criteria for a successful currency union, but thats a separate point!). The lesson is as clear as night and day. Currency unions require less not more independence. Forget myopia, you need to be 100% blind not to see that.

Of course, if you do that in a structure where you (will) have little, if any representation, then you are really making things worse. It frankly beggars belief....

Or perhaps, even that is better than what we currently have.

You really have no idea how lucky you are. So much of this seems like wanting to have your cake and eat it on a massive scale.

I don't agree with much Mrs T had to say but one point she made is that focusing on the gap between rich and poor shows you don't actually care about the poor being better off, you'd rather see them worse off if the gap was smaller.

What a daft thing to say. Healthy, happy societies are more equal ones. There's a lot of evidence showing this.

You really have no idea how lucky you are.

...only been part of one of the most successful economic and political unions in history.

Grum, where is the gratitude from these guys?!? 😉

Something else I've noticed here...

Most of the YES voices all say they aren't worried about financial union either way. No problem.

However.

To AS it appears to be fundamental...

Can someone explain to me why that is?

Perhaps the YES voices should reconsider there position when AS doesn't appear to be fully representing your feelings?

@thm

Of course, if you do that in a structure where you (will) have little, if any representation, then you are really making things worse. It frankly beggars belief....

Could you explain this for me please? Surely if we have a shared currency then each country (Scotland, population 5M; rUK, population 60M) would have an equal vote when deciding on economic policy? Anything else would be totally unfair on the smaller country. I can't see how [s]AS[/s]Scotland would ever agree to anything less....

Perhaps the YES voices should reconsider there position when AS doesn't appear to be fully representing your feelings?

Yes Scotland != SNP

No the relationship would be assymetrical and clearly in favour of rUK (in practice exclusively so, since there is no lobby to satisfy).

You agree because you want the benefits.

Did you not state ben that the Lib Dems are dead, Scotland will not forget Labour standing shoulder to shoulder with Tories on currency union? What are the viable options? I believe a vote Yes is as big an endorsement of the SNP that can possibly be made.
can anyone believe that Johan Lamont may be sitting down to discuss splitting up the assets and liabilities of the UK with Ed Milliband???

Dear Leader will be our first Prime Minister after Yes vote.
Since he and his supporters do not think the press is overly favourable, I would not rule out nationalisation of a newspaper or two followed by a purge of editors. Director general of the state television company, Blair Jenkins perhaps? He is well qualified.

If anyone thinks that unbelievable, George Galloway, whom I have heard some sense from on the issue of independence, does take it a bit far with talk of anti Catholic pogroms and ethnic cleansing.

I just can't see how Scotland is going to gain independence with the current set of incumbents..

A complete lack of transparency from the YES (AS) campaign & the basic fact that independence, as offered, seems to be some kind of "lite" version.

Jambalaya

focusing on the gap between rich and poor shows you don't actually care about the poor being better off, you'd rather see them worse off if the gap was smaller.

I would not rule out nationalisation of a newspaper or two followed by a purge of editors

😆

If anyone thinks that unbelievable, George Galloway, whom I have heard some sense from on the issue of independence, does take it a bit far with talk of anti Catholic pogroms and ethnic cleansing.

Do you have a YT link - that would be amusing to listen to.

Good list of some of the ex colonies that have shared sterling in media today. Reinforces the idea that Friday's announcement had a huge amount of political motivation. I wonder why the Cooks islands and Nigeria were better bets than us? 8)

Duckman, you are chosing an admirable peer group. Big difference, though, we didnt stand behind their banks.

Athgray Can you name any pro independence newspapers or editors ?

Athgray Can you name any pro independence newspapers or editors ?

Wait I got this, hold on......just a minute.......

Ummm, nope.

This is the closest I've seen lately from the main stream http://www.scotsman.com/news/andrew-wilson-hold-nerve-when-wolves-bears-teeth-1-3307659

Someone suggested the herald the other day when I asked the same question

A complete lack of transparency from the YES (AS) campaign

Someone suggested the herald the other day when I asked the same question

Scotroutes, although he actually said he found it "the least biased"

Hence the purge then? I can see prominent positions for those in charge of Wings over Scotland. A delightfully vitriolic read.
I tend to read the Times. Not perfect but certainly not the worst. Very wary of anything in the Telegraph although I tend to use the paper as a window into the wider world, rather than a source for voting in the referendum.

Oh I see!!!

The Scotsman carries different views but appears to lean towards no, at least from afar!

Won't it be the Record that counts in terms of readership?

Or equally you could say the pro independence voices have already been purged.

BY Holyrood??? 😉

The Herald is printing a reasonable number of pro-Independence stories recently. Then again, the FT and Daily Mail have printed a few also.

No major Scottish newspaper is Scottish-owned, which probably has some bearing on it.

No by apple they've got an app for it

Well I accept the rUK position of refusing to discuss it and making announcements that only ever piss on AS chips is consistent and clear but it is no more helpful than his position.

Fair point, though he does make it easy for them.

They both do

TBH I dont trust either side to be saying anything other than what they HOPE will happen/serves their agenda best. They are after all politicians

No one knows what the reality will be like but it will be UNLIKE both sides claims at the minute.

TBH I dont trust either side to be saying anything other than what they HOPE will happen/serves their agenda best. They are after all politicians

No one knows what the reality will be like but it will be UNLIKE both sides claims at the minute.

And yet, people are being asked to vote on such supposition, hope and vagiary.

From both sides.

How can anyone vote on something that is so undecided, so vague, so full of maybe?

The pro independence argument has certainly not been purged. thm you may not be aware of what it is like uphere in the run up to the referendum. Despite the alleged bias of all mainstream media outlets, the yes camp is certainly the loudest.

Interviews with dear leader and his generals would have anyone voting no feel like they are supportive of a tory regime in a country bent on war mongering, flouting weapons of mass destruction., getting one over on the poor, and the subjugation of Scots. Bumper stickers on cars emblazoned with YES over a saltire and saltire festooned rallies leave you in no doubt who own Scottishness.

England is portrayed as epitomizing the UK with its residents acting as a single homogenous voting block, blindly electing fools to piss over us all.

The SNP bark the same "we can either be ruled by evil westminster, or we can rule ourselves!" tripe.
Add a level of scare mongering at their party conference, opened by a vote yes broadcast video Leni Riefensthal would have been proud of.

A prominent SNP politician not afraid to speak his mind believes his party to be intellectually bereft, schooled in the old Russian ways, and all too willing to tow the party line. Some claim Jim Sillars a bitter failure. Trotsky by that margin was also a failure, but I bet he could have shed interesting light on the masinachions of his party.

Websites proclaiming Robert Burns would have voted Yes, you should do the same evoke an image of the bard pointing from a poster with the words "Your country needs you" like Kitchener.

The SNP do bully, and I reckon many undecided voters are actually no voters that may be scared or feel an unnecessary pang of guilt that they may let Scotland down. I would urge them not to feel this way. I feel no such guilt.

Businesses, especially small businesses keeping quiet after proclamation that some of our largest employers can bugger off for daring to to challenge Shangri-La.

Admissions by dear leader that lack of knowledge of a regions vernacular precludes you from having an opinion on it's politics. Angus Robertson acting as main propaganda minister. He toutes the WMD, serfdom line like no other. Justice minister can't control his actions at a Scotland England football match resulting in a stint in a prison cell.

We have not got to the Commonwealth games, Ryder Cup and God forbid the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn. Anyone wanting to see a fully ramped up propaganda machine should wait for June 24th.

I reckon the yes campaign see these as preliminary examinations of Scottishness or revision on route to the final examination on polling day. If you fail the exam in SNP eyes I am sure further education will be required.

I don't blame yes voters for any of this, and state this is only my opinion that we are not in for a rosy future. Either believe that or the white paper. I know which future I believe to be less fanciful in an independent Scotland.

In a way it is a shame that many of those supportive of the UK here, are not eligible to vote.

[quote=jambalaya ]Sweden was one of the "original" EU members, the current EU new member rules will not allow Scotland to join in the same way Sweden or indeed the UK membership works. New members have no opt outs. Scotland will have to make a compelling case to be allowed to join and making comparisons with old existing members isn't going to get them anywhere.

Wrong. Sweden joined the EU in 1995. It is required to join the Euro once it meets the criteria. It does not have an opt out. The rules regarding the Euro for Scotland would be broadly similar. I wrote all this in my previous posts on the subject which you seem to be ignoring. To suggest that Scotland would have to join the Euro before Sweden does is as silly as most of the stuff AS spouts (if you look at the issue properly, it's clear that the UK could also easily avoid joining the Euro if it was joining the EU as a new state).

[quote=duckman ]Good list of some of the ex colonies that have shared sterling in media today.

Which of those have actually had currency union and hence a say in fiscal policy affecting the currency in the way AS wants? Or have they just had "plan B" which even AS's advisers don't appear able to agree on?

[quote=athgray ]The SNP do bully, and I reckon many undecided voters are actually no voters that may be scared or feel an unnecessary pang of guilt that they may let Scotland down.

I do wonder whether this "election" is going to show one of the largest disparities between opinion polls and actual result...

I am not sure aracer. I think it will be close. I reckon either side could virtually claim 60% as a landslide. For the record I reckon a statement of intent towards acheiving devo max by the no campaign would be a game changer though.

I am going to hear Jim Sillars speak on friday 21st in Fort William. It's free to all although it is a YesScotland event,there is more to Yes than Alex Salmond.

As to newspapers,the times scotland section has five headlines on the e copy. Three are usually telling us to fatten up our least favoured child.

I believe a vote Yes is as big an endorsement of the SNP that can possibly be made.[\quote]
Electorates have a habit of being "ungrateful": Churchill lost the first post-WW2 election, didn't he?

 

@gordimhor - over any reasonable timeframe, eg 10-15 years, everyone is better off. And to @grum we have one of the most egalitarian societies in the world.

@aracer I put original in quotes deliberately, perhaps I should have used longstanding. The rules governing Scotland joining the EU will be very different than Sweden, much has changed in the EU with regards to new members. In my view if Scotland try and adopt an approach which says they want to join "as per Sweden" for example their entry will be blocked, not least by other recent joiners who've had to sign up without any opt outs. The only way an independent Scotland benefits the EU is if they join up in total including the euro and they make a decent net contribution to the EU coffers.

On a somewhat irrelevant note Braveheart is on the TV in France, dubbed into French, the Aussie guy is still the hero though, we're at the battle scene where the Scots are showing their arses to the English which sums up the Yes campaign really