[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Only a niaive european would want to put barriers between themselves and one of their largest trade partners, hence when push comes to shove Frau Merkel will tolerate and ignore CMDs occasional histrionics. It's in no ones interests to inhibit trade within Europe (unless you are an instructors with the ESF!)

I'll just leave this here:

[s]There were at least two facts in there [/s] yes it is a personal opinion. I still think we think we are far more important than we really are tbh. The eu would be ok without us and we would struggle more than them in the short run but both would survive fine in the long run.

The UK has the third largest economy in the EU

Which country do you think has the second largest economy in the EU ?

I prefer the celebrity love bombing video.

With the bald one off of Eastenders and the posh pair of interior decorators or whoever they are. That's funny 🙂

Germany 1st
France 2nd
UK 3rd
Italy 4th
Spain 5th

Nominal GDP

Generally speaking the UK economy is normally regarded larger the French, in terms of purchasing power parity. But fair enough, France, I'm just a little surprised.

EDIT : I've just checked and the UK economy is indeed generally considered to be the third largest economy in the Europe, I didn't know that.

Although that is predicted to change : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28174598

iirc it depends how you measure/ who you look at and we swap and change a bit

yes just checked

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
Above France on CIA one

GDP (purchasing power parity) compares the gross domestic product (GDP) or value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year. A nation's GDP at purchasing power parity (PPP) exchange rates is the sum value of all goods and services produced in the country valued at prices prevailing in the United States.

So according to the CIA the UK has now dropped to 9th, after India, Russia, and Brazil. That's a bit of a surprise, the last time I checked it was 6th or 7th.

In a global economy PPP does not stack up next to nominal GDP. If we were to take our UK money and spend it all in India then suddenly we would be at number 1 in the GDP league based on PPP. Nominal takes the GDP of every country and compares them in the same currency. PPP is like saying our GDP in real terms is smaller than yours but I can buy rice and onions cheaper than you can so our GDP is worth more. That to me is just a way for countries with smaller economies to big themselves up.

So what? Who is concerned about PPP GDP stats.

It's about trade - and that is what european matter about, Ok we are largely balanced with the froggies but we run big deficits with Germany and the Netherlands - why would they have any interest in losing a major market for their exports. Ditto we wouldn't want to lose access to Ireland as a market where we X a lot more than we M.

The EU won't exist in its current format anyway. Two possible three currency blocs need to emerge. Junker and co will try to push greater coordination and monetary and fiscal union but it will fail under the social pressure that remain in the periphery. It's just a matter if when. So why get "sweaty" about it?

the froggies

why get "sweaty" about it?

Two racist slurs in one post. Tsk tsk

So what? Who is concerned about PPP GDP stats.

Yes, because what matters are standards of living, whether people can afford to have a home, whether children are happy. On all those measures, the UK does pretty badly.

I really couldn't care less where we are on a scale of GDP - it's all willy-waving like whether we have nukes. Who are we trying to impress?

Even if we act to erase material poverty, there is another greater task, it is to confront the poverty of satisfaction - purpose and dignity - that afflicts us all.

Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage.

It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for the people who break them. It counts the destruction of the redwood and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl.

It counts napalm and counts nuclear warheads and armored cars for the police to fight the riots in our cities. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.

Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials.

It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country, it measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile.

And it can tell us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans.

If this is true here at home, so it is true elsewhere in world

It's about trade - and that is what european matter about,

Exit from the EU wouldn't be a big trade problem considering EFTA, WTO, GATT etc.

Yes, because what matters are standards of living, whether people can afford to have a home, whether children are happy. On all those measures, the UK does pretty badly.

Ben, be serious.

Okay, good - we can dispose of all that stuff about the UK's nukes then.

How come, they are separate issues? But AS will make those nasty nukes disappear anyway wont he? Hmm......where are the marines, I need to tell them something.

Ben, be serious

I am serious. You think GDP matters more than standards of living and happiness?

No I do not. GDP is merely a measure of our national output . Nothing more, nothing less. I am saying be serious about living in the UK. By global standards we have very high living standards in the UK and opportunities to achieve "happiness" that citizens of other countries would relish.

But unnecessary winging about the green grass on the other side is a common theme among yS, I notice. But as we saw in the BOD, It is little more that an imaginary nirvana.

We have very high income inequality, a massively overinflated housing market which means people on average wages cannot afford a home, and some of the unhealthiest and unhappiest kids in Europe. We also have cretins like this influencing policy:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/17/proposed-limit-of-uk-child-benefit-to-four-per-household

But that's okay, we should be happy with what we've got and not dare to aim for something better.

Meanwhile, haven't celebrities yet learned that holding up signs is just asking for people to make fun of them?

[img] [/img]

[url= http://upholdingenglishhonour.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/dear-eddie-izzard-and-friends-please-dont-go-on-please-listen-to-why-its-ok-for-us-english-to-let-scotland-go/ ]An English person in England responds to the latest love bombing...[/url]

Well, I am lucky to spend large parts of my time travelling overseas. The one thing that this tells me is that the UK is a great place to live and that people need a wake-up call when they try to picture the UK as a place of abject poverty etc.

We have pressure in the housing market in the SE that is true, but still perspective is needed.

Unhappy and unhealthy kids - again some perspective.

But hey, don't worry, all this will disappear overnight with a simple x in a box.

Anyway we digress and there are some good early scores at the Open.

Again you're playing the "be happy with what we've got" card. Why can't we want something better?

We can - just be careful how you ask for it and what you wish for. The little x in the yes box is most likely to disappoint. There is fantasy land (see BoD) and there is reality. The latter is a little more sober.

But frankly it is pretty obscene for UK citizens to pretend that we live in some retched place characterised by extreme poverty, lack of access to housing, healthcare, education etc. Some perspective is required, after all our health care is the envy of the world isn't it?

How come, they are separate issues?

We have very high income inequality, a massively overinflated housing market which means people on average wages cannot afford a home, and some of the unhealthiest and unhappiest kids in Europe...Why can't we want something better?

"We'll have an undefined something better and we'll achieve it by doing everything in exactly the same way it's done in the UK now. We'll change, but without changing anything, so there's no need to worry about change..."

Again you're playing the "be happy with what we've got" card. Why can't we want something better?

[img] [/img]

A Times columnist described the No campaign as Mansplaining and it so is 😉

By global standards we have very high living standards in the UK and opportunities to achieve "happiness" that citizens of other countries would relish.

Take the recent Tory plan to remove the European court of Human rights an dgive parliament the power to ignore our rights. Do you want this ? Do we want to be lumped in with countries who do this sort of thing

For sure we are rich the issue is what we do with this wealth re distribution and providing for all as ben notes, the results here are somewhat mixed IMHO. Also there is the question of what we do with our morals.
Ys suggest we can do better on both fronts so do a great many people

You are correct we do not have need we have a lack of interest in eradicating want not a lack of ability to do it.

it is pretty obscene for UK citizens to pretend that we live in some retched place characterised by extreme poverty, lack of access to housing, healthcare, education etc

The richest 5 families in the UK have more wealth than the poorest 12 million people. I think that's pretty obscene - that's corrupt dictatorship levels of inequality.

An X in a box won't magically change everything, of course it won't, and no-one on the Yes side is daft enough to say it will. But it's a first step, a beginning, a move away from the current system which isn't working for the majority of people in this country.

The alternative is to believe that voting makes no difference, it's not worth trying to make things better. I'm not yet that cynical.

The alternative is to believe that voting makes no difference

Voting will only make a difference if you are voting for something different.

Income inequality is the direct product of neo-liberal economics. One of the central tenets of neo-liberal economics is low taxation. The Scottish government's vision for economic prosperity in Scotland is through low taxation, particularly low corporation tax.

You will not be voting for anything different.

Not unless of course you consider that the different packaging between the Tories and Labour provides a worthwhile difference. In which case you will be voting for something difference with the guaranteed same results.

You're confusing a vote for independence with a vote for the SNP.

It's absolutely true that voting in Westminster elections makes little difference - the way the system is set up, most people's votes don't count, and even if they did all the parties are the same, so there's little point.

But a vote for independence isn't a vote for a political party, it's a vote to get rid of the whole system.

I haven't mentioned the SNP or any other party. Re-read my post.

Making everyone equally poor has it's downsides, but if that's the plan Afghanistan stands out as a model for an independent Scotland.

Making everyone equally poor has it's downsides, but if that's the plan Afghanistan stands out as a model for an independent Scotland.

I think that will be today's most stupidest comment. I'll be surprised if anyone can surpass that.

EDIT: oh challenges challenges

You will not be voting for anything different.

[quote=bencooper ]You're confusing a vote for independence with a vote for the SNP.

Well not really, because none of the other parties in Scotland are proposing anything radically different.

But a vote for independence isn't a vote for a political party, it's a vote to get rid of the whole system.

I guess the deckchairs will be arranged slightly differently.

Thatcher or Blair type choice.

You mean the sort of choice which exists in the UK ?

No because they will be constantly not chosing the right wing one so it will be a choice of say Blair or Obama for iS

Not radical by any means but it i hard to see, in the short run at least, a Tory led govt for the country, It is not hard to see one for the Uk or rUK.

I accept it is next to **** all/rearranging the deck chairs but it is not identical

I cannot see iS removing the human rights legislation though they will remove the bedroom tax,
Again slight differences but differences none the less but basically the same

Vote yes for 650b *:wink:

* daft enough?

they will remove the bedroom tax

Hold the front page, that changes everything.

All of a sudden the countless disadvantages of Scotland separating from the rest of the UK pale into insignificance as I discover that a future government will scrap the bedroom tax.

Even Labour's commitment to scrap the bedroom tax is not enough to convince me to vote for them. And btw under increased devolved powers Scotland will be free to scrap the bedroom tax without separating from the rest of the UK.

I haven't mentioned the SNP or any other party. Re-read my post.

You mentioned the Scottish government, who are the SNP at the moment. A future Scottish government may have different policies.

Making everyone equally poor has it's downsides, but if that's the plan Afghanistan stands out as a model for an independent Scotland.

I don't think anyone has that as a plan, because that's a really stupid plan.

A future Scottish government may have different policies.

That really is quite remarkable. You claim that future Scottish governments will pursue policies that will reduce income inequality, but in the same breath you claim that no one knows what policies a future Scottish government will have.

You are basically saying "vote yes and everyone will be better off, don't ask me how as I don't know, there are some policies but just ignore those even though they are being used to make the case for independence".

Have you any idea how silly that sounds ? No wonder the Yes campaign appear to be struggling.

Oh, good grief.

The system is broken. Changing the system might help. It's got to be worth a go, as the system can't be fixed from within.

Making everyone equally poor has it's downsides, but if that's the plan Afghanistan stands out as a model for an independent Scotland.

I'm not sure you've understood how income inequality works if that's your example.

Changing the system might help. It's got to be worth a go

But you haven't provided any evidence that "the system" will be changed. And no, getting rid of the House of Lords isn't "changing the system". Increased income inequality has absolutely nothing to do with the House of Lords. Which explains why there has also been a dramatic increase in income inequality in the United States.

BTW pretty much anything "might help", that doesn't automatically mean that it's got to be worth a go. I take it you're not a physician ?

But you haven't provided any evidence that "the system" will be changed.

We'll go from a first-past-the-post system which allows a party with a minority of the vote to dominate, to a system of proportional representation which more accurately reflects the views of the people.

We'll get rid of the second-largest unelected chamber in the world.

And we'll make sure that the wishes of the people of Scotland aren't massively over-ruled by the wishes of the people of the rest of the UK the way they are now.

vote [s]yes [/s]no and everyone will be better off, don't ask me how as I don't know, there are some policies but just ignore those even though they are being used to make the case for [s]independence[/s] staying".

PS even if they did say would any of you no voters believe the words of Lord BS of eck 😉 [or any other politician for this matter]

We have doen the it must be a radical change ot it is not worth it

Ernie the big change is that iS gets the govt them voted for.

Not radical [ though millions have fought and died for this right] but democratic.