[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Threats that Scotland will be ejected (even temporarily) from the EU are hollow, impossible to ever put into practice.

Anyone, on either side of the debate, claiming to know as a matter of certainty what would happen to an independent Scotland’s EU membership status is a liar.

When we finally get a Free Yorkshire anyone using "paradigm" will have to have "I'm a reet berk" tattooed across there forehead.

We can argue over the minutae as much as we like

Except most of the yes supporters actually want to ignore all that and [b]hope[/b] it all works out.

We can argue over the minutae as much as we like, but it comes down to Scots want independence, and Scots are capable of running their own country.

After independence, we will be eternally grateful to the UK Establishment for their co-ordinated campaign of lies, threats, and sneers, because that has made many otherwise passive Scots abandon their traditional party vote, and get out on the streets and involve themselves in the Yes campaign.

If there is a Yes vote Scotland is going to face the very harsh reality that the Yes campaign have misrepresented the future on a massive scale, possibly the largest ever "Big Lie"

it actually says that wow

I think that says a lot either about the level of understanding, or the level of deception of whoever wrote that. But I didn't really expect anything better from WOS.

aracer - Member
"We can argue over the minutae as much as we like"
Except most of the yes supporters actually want to ignore all that and hope it all works out.

Just like voters in every general election hope it's going to work out.

Or are you saying we are incompetent to govern ourselves?

jambalaya - Member
@epic
51/49 (best poll favouring Yes) hardly justifies saying "Scots want independence"

And if that was the result in a general election, what would you call it?

research has shown that the more false information people have the more likely they are to vote Yes.

Nice edit, unfortunately the research shows differently:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-more-informed-favour-yes-1-3534372

[url= http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/09/tyler-durden/uk-establishment-in-full-panic-mode/ ]I was sent this. Interesting perspective.[/url]

So the Times runs a survey (how many people were surveyed?) and then runs a massive 'oh no headline its going to be a yes'. Take that with a pinch of salt.

That's pretty much what opinion polls are. Just over a 1,000 people were polled by YouGov, and because it is run by YouGov, it's taken as a mainstream poll. It could be accurate, it may not be. The point is it is the first mainstream poll to put Yes ahead of No.

If you want to criticise YouGov, perhaps look at their website and find some contact details. I'm sure your detailed insights into this process will be useful to them.

hora - Member
So the Times runs a survey (how many people were surveyed?) and then runs a massive 'oh no headline its going to be a yes'. Take that with a pinch of salt.

[url= http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/when-the-push-polling-has-to-stop/ ]Have a read of this[/url]

We have been saying for some time that the polls don't seem to reflect what we are seeing and hearing on the ground.

(But it may be different further south in Scotland)

aracer - Member

We can argue over the minutae as much as we like

Except most of the yes supporters actually want to ignore all that and hope it all works out.

Increasingly it is the no campaign that is hoping it will all work out. I suppose we can expect to see the suggestion that a clear majority in favour isn't realy a mandate to break up the UK,as touched on above. Despite the way the general election has given us the current coalition.

[img] [/img]

In all seriousness, Panelbase closed its panel for independence vote some time ago, I don't believe Yougov did!

There has been some discussion on Twitter of an organised signup of Yes campaigners,
hoping to influence Panelbase polls. Not all of the quoted posts actually relate to political
polls, but the point is still one to consider. In fact new joiners have had no significant
effect on our results but we do recognise the potential for abuse of the system if people
on either side were able to coordinate a mass sign up of new members. As a precaution,
between now and the referendum we will not be including results from panel members
who joined more recently than June 2013. This only applies to political polls. We may
still invite people to take part for our own internal analysis, but their data will not be
used in the published results. We are also considering other measures to ensure that
sample sources have no undue effect on results.

Increasingly it is the no campaign that is hoping it will all work out.

Completely missing the point - we are talking about what happens in the event of a yes vote here? A lot of people on the no side are quite sure it won't all work out in the way most of the yes supporters seem to be hoping.

The point remains, there is a shift in momentum. If that is the best "NO" can do this close to the election (good to see the parties still falling out and blaming each other for the current implosion)Then good luck with the post split carve up. All of a sudden Scotland is offered three different sets of laws by three different parties. Different perspective to THM,but a buggers mess right enough.
As an aside; I assume that since 51% isn't a clear mandate for, then neither is it a clear mandate against if the boot is on the other foot.

A lot of people on the no side are quite sure it won't all work out in the way most of the yes supporters seem to be hoping.

Then good luck with the post split carve up.

I'm sure we won't need that, not when the GE will have robustness in the independence negotiations as a key policy feature and they'll all be outdoing each other at how tough they can be.

Just spoke to my Scottish colleague, he says his friends and family North of the border say if you are a No voter you keep quiet as otherwise the intimidation is significant. He also said the divisions between the two camps are very deep, whatever the result these are not going to heal quickly.

[i]What will be interesting is watching Osborne desperately row back from the "no currency union" thing.[/i]

Funny...on Sunday morning he said 'no ifs, no buts, NO CURRENCY UNION!'

Sticking with my 60% 'no' prediction, as the 'no voters' are keeping their heads down. Seems to me, only the 'yes' campaigners are the vocal ones with a lot of agitators involved that the 'no' voters want to avoid having anything to do with. Can't say I blame them seeing some of the tactics involved.

Edit: oh just seen above post saying much the same!

And if that was the result in a general election, what would you call it?

Just spoke to my Scottish colleague, he says his friends and family North of the border say if you are a No voter you keep quiet as otherwise the intimidation is significant. He also said the divisions between the two camps are very deep, whatever the result these are not going to heal quickly.

Anecdotes aren't data. Survation did a survey and found that 8% of No voters had had abuse, for Yes voters the figure is 21%. You only need to look at the @BritNatAbuseBot feed to get an idea of the constant stream of it. No are getting increasingly desperate, and a good strategy when you're desperate is to try to goad the other side, to portray the other side as bullying. A compliant media helps a lot with that - just look how much coverage the egg incident got.

In reality, there aren't massive rifts. I know a bunch of No voters, there's no animosity, we happily kid each other about it.

Funny...on Sunday morning he said 'no ifs, no buts, NO CURRENCY UNION!'

And the pound immediately tanked. Clever move, George 😉

Just spoke to my Scottish colleague, he says his friends and family North of the border say if you are a No voter you keep quiet as otherwise the intimidation is significant. He also said the divisions between the two camps are very deep, whatever the result these are not going to heal quickly.

Where I work I think I'm the only Yes voter and there's constant ridicule as well as reasonable debate. None of it can be taken seriously (Salmond being out Scottish dictator type stuff) but it does get tiresome. There's a lot of condescension as well.

[i]What will be interesting is watching Osborne desperately row back from the "no currency union" thing.[/i]

One less thing to be interested in then...

[i]And the pound immediately tanked. Clever move, George [/i]

So it didn't tank as a result of the latest poll then?

I have had absolutely no abuse face to face whether talking to friends or workmates who are no voters or whilst out canmpaigning for Yes. Online / phone canvassing theres been some but very little. There are bampots on both sides.

There's a lot of condescension as well

And of course we never get that on here 😀

Many other countries manage to balance bisiness and society much better, we can try to copy them.

Like where, specifically?
And how will iScotland change the power dynamic?

You'll notice it when you grow up, ben.

Just spoke to my Scottish colleague, he says his friends and family North of the border say if you are a No voter you keep quiet as otherwise the intimidation is significant.

[i]I have had absolutely no abuse face to face whether talking to friends or workmates who are no voters or whilst out canmpaigning for Yes[/i]

No one is suggesting you would, seeing as the 'No' voters aren't interested in engaging the 'yes' campaigners.

jambalaya - Member

And if that was the result in a general election, what would you call it?

@eipic but a general election is for a max 5 years, this is a permanent and seismic change

I was going to point out that rUK agreed to the election and the Scottish population voted in a party with just this aim..but it doesn't matter as you are on the sidelines sniping and [s]making up stories[/s] sharing anecdotes about those poor no voters,that seem to go against facts. Actually was it you or Zulu who suggested annexing faslane in the event of a yes vote?

I notice that Ben has totally failed to answer either of these questions

Okay, ideas off the top of my head - and bear in mind there are no quick fixes, it'll need a lot of work over a long period - but some things to look at:

Proper, good, state-subsidised childcare.
Equality of maternity/paternity leave so women don't lose out when having a baby.
Better use of the rates system to help smaller and family-owned businesses.
Get serious about tax evasion, with a simpler tax system.
Maintain free education, expand apprenticeships and college training courses.
Try to rebalance the economy away from financial services and towards manufacturing.

PSA debating it on Jeremy Vine R2 currently

PSA debating it on Jeremy Vine R2 currently

Ah, another step towards the heat death of the Universe.

Would Jeremy vote yes or no? 😆

I can't bear to listen, but has someone said "Jocks" yet?

I have had absolutely no abuse face to face whether talking to friends or workmates who are no voters or whilst out canmpaigning for Yes. Online / phone canvassing theres been some but very little. There are bampots on both sides.

Anecdotes aren't data. Survation did a survey and found that 8% of No voters had had abuse, for Yes voters the figure is 21%. You only need to look at the @BritNatAbuseBot feed to get an idea of the constant stream of it. No are getting increasingly desperate, and a good strategy when you're desperate is to try to goad the other side, to portray the other side as bullying. A compliant media helps a lot with that - just look how much coverage the egg incident got.

Just to add to this topic. And this is purely anecdotal.

The intimidation of no voters I know. It's not the "vote yes or i'll smash yer pus". It's the overbearing sense of moral high ground they perceive to eminate from [i]some[/i]Yes campaigners/voters.

The sense that they are viewed as bad people for beleiving a different path is better. That coupled in with the 'how could you not want your nation to be free' is where the intimidation sits.

It's not "Vote yes or I'll smash yer pus" it's "vote yes or be ashamed of yourself"

This is from a very, very small number of people. Unsuprisingly, most no voters I know don't talk about the referendum full stop unless pushed.

I suppose that's because No is really the default position - most no voters are probably soft No...

I don't have the numbers, you'll need ScotRoutes for that.

But the Etape Caledonia route yesterday was about 80-85% Yes and 15-20% No for stickers and Placards. At a guess.

Award for best vehicle goes to that Now Blue Green Goddess that's doing the rounds.

Biggest Flag/Placard award goes to a Union Jack in someones from yard.

You'll need to consult Scotroutes again for best slogan.

And the pound immediately tanked. Clever move, George

@duckman I am sorry you think my comments are sniping, just trying to add something to the discussion

nnfan

i see your media mogul whose empire gives him access into most people's lives and raise you one mass-murdering dictator who overthrew the elected government, banned opposition and used "disappearances" and torture to hold on to power
[img] [/img]

@BigBut - a co-incidence the YouGov poll was paid for by the Murdoch press ? I think not.

The intimidation of no voters I know. It's not the "vote yes or i'll smash yer pus". It's the overbearing sense of moral high ground they perceive to eminate from someYes campaigners/voters.

#meta

jambalaya - Member
Just spoke to my Scottish colleague, he says his friends and family North of the border say if you are a No voter you keep quiet as otherwise the intimidation is significant. He also said the divisions between the two camps are very deep, whatever the result these are not going to heal quickly.

I'm sorry, but that's utter bollocks.

It's typical of what is coming from south of the border. It's not evident here.

What divisions? The only thing we're arguing over is what's best for Scotland and its people. We all share a desire to get what's best for Scotland, so in that we have a common purpose.

The police chiefs have published a letter to the effect that they are not seeing any signs of this after Project Fear tried once again to whip up some imaginary signs of conflict.

@ jam - Who knows?
[img] [/img]

A no vote on a Free Yorkshire would give to a right clogging.

if being patronized from the moral high ground by smug bores was intimidation, STW would be one of the scariest sites on the internet. I think you're being a bit precious.

#meta

😆 😀

jambalaya - Member

Just spoke to my Scottish colleague, he says his friends and family North of the border say if you are a No voter you keep quiet as otherwise the intimidation is significant.

Possibly there's a perception gap for many, on account of things like getting hit with an egg being news for a week, whereas a 60 year old man getting beaten up in the street barely merits a mention. All the actual researched, non-anecdotal commentary I've seen says you're far more likely to be the victim of intimidation as a Yes voter.

i see your media mogul whose empire gives him access into most people's lives and raise you one mass-murdering dictator who overthrew the elected government, banned opposition and used "disappearances" and torture to hold on to power

Nah, him and Alex fell out a while ago:

[img] [/img]

FWIW I spoke to my Scottish colleague (non voter) who's been speaking to his friends and family North of the Border who are registered voters.

@epic one side is not going to get what it wants, you know my view that an iS is going to find things very tough, those who've voted No will be very dissatisfied with the economic consequences and likewise the Yes voters if there is a No. I really don't see everyone sitting down over a pint to discuss, the recriminations are going to be significant.

those who've voted No will be very dissatisfied with the economic consequences and likewise the Yes voters if there is a No. I really don't see everyone sitting down over a pint to discuss, the recriminations are going to be significant.

I think you're doing a disservice to the Scottish people.

jambalaya - Member
...I really don't see everyone sitting down over a pint to discuss, the recriminations are going to be significant.

Don't worry, we will, and the digs will be merciless. 🙂

Anecdotes aren't data. Survation did a survey and found that 8% of No voters had had abuse, for Yes voters the figure is 21%

That might just prove that yes voters are more sensitive though. It's hardly 'evidence' is it?

Don't worry, we will, and the digs will be merciless.

+1

I've already started preparing materials.

I think you're doing a disservice to the Scottish people.

+another 1

Possibly there's a perception gap for many, on account of things like getting hit with an egg being news for a week, whereas a 60 year old man getting beaten up in the street barely merits a mention. All the actual researched, non-anecdotal commentary I've seen says you're far more likely to be the victim of intimidation as a Yes voter.

I'd agree with that.

grum - Member
"Anecdotes aren't data. Survation did a survey and found that 8% of No voters had had abuse, for Yes voters the figure is 21%"
That might just prove that yes voters are more sensitive though. It's hardly 'evidence' is it?

Aye we're too soft.

That lady shouldn't have fallen over when kicked in the guts by a No organiser, that old man shouldn't have gone to hospital, and the people in that Yes office should have appreciated that having their office burnt to the ground was actually a kindly attempt to provide some warmth for the homeless on a cold night.

Any links to those stories?

It's emotive straw man rubbish like this ^^^^^^^^^ that infantilises the debate.

That's not even remotely what I suggested is it.

Mind you I believe it was epicyclo who brought up the clearances as a reason to vote Yes (while failing to realise they were mostly carried out by Scottish landowners) - but there's definitely no element of nationalist or anti-English racism going on. 🙄

I see lots of no thanks signs have been smashed to bits in the Borders last week, classy, thought they got in trouble for that last time round didn't they?

I think the one about a Yes office turned out to be just an empty shop unit covered in Yes posters, didn't it? Which could possibly have been targeted because of the posters, or possibly just because Glasgow.

Here is a link to one of the stories:
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/yes-campaigners-attacked-by-mob-outside-tynecastle-1-3527125
My dad knows Stewart from the pub, he's reasonably bruised and still pretty shaken up, but taking it pretty well considering.

Here's the other one:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/man-held-over-assault-after-yes-no-confrontation-1-3526187

Scotsman doing a nice job of avoiding admitting who was doing the kicking...

irelanst - Member
Any links to those stories?

Strange they were they not reported in your press, when the slightest criticism from Yes is construed as bullying and gets hysterical airplay.

I'm off out for a while. I'll dig them up when I get back, so someone else can provide the links, or maybe Google.

It wasn't a Yes shop, it was a newsagents with lots of Yes signs on it - and it was only a wheelie bin fire, not serious arson.

Considering we're talking about something so important I'm amazed and proud that it's been so civilised and respectful - despite the best attempts of some to portray it otherwise.

I expect this would be a good place to start for tales like that

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=site:http:%2F%2Fwingsoverscotland.com%2F

This is the press release from the Scottish Police Federation about as close to evidence that you ll get Grum

In response to the suggestion of absolute carnage in and around polling stations on the 18th Sept Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation said;

“The independence debate has been robust but overwhelmingly good natured and it would prove a disservice to those who have participated in it thus far to suggest that with 17 days to go, Scotland is about to disintegrate into absolute carnage on the back of making the most important decision in the country’s history

Politicians and supporters of whichever point of view need to be mindful of the potential impact of intemperate, inflammatory and exaggerated language, lest they be seen to seek to create a self fulfilling prophecy”

despite the best attempts of some to portray it otherwise.

You mean like epicyclo?

Strange they were they not reported in your press, when the slightest criticism from Yes is construed as bullying and gets hysterical airplay.

I read about the kicking incident - it seems the woman in question tried to grab a loudhailer from the person who kicked her. Not saying that makes it justified but she hardly sounds like a peaceful advocate for free expression does she. And we've already heard that your story about the Yes campaign office getting burned down is inflammatory nonsense. What was the other one again?

Meanwhile it's going a bit Eastenders:

"I'm leaving you!"
"But I'm pregnant!"

😀

You mean like epicyclo?

I mean like Jim Murphy claiming that there was an orchestrated campaign of intimidation and the egg attack on him was ordered at the highest levels of government, and the press instead of saying "yeah, right" instead printed his paranoid rumblings for days.

I'm not disputing the fact that Jim Murphy is full of shit - it's just massively hypocritical for people who support the Yes campaign to whine about inaccurate scare-mongering while doing the exact same thing themselves.

But you don't seem to mind when people 'on your side' do it.

Meanwhile it's going a bit Eastenders:

You're going to need a new soap. Eastenders is so London-centric.

Well it is true that an elderly man had his wrist broken, it's true that an official No campaigner was arrested for kicking a woman in the stomach, and it's true a mob attacked a Yes stall at Tynecastle.

So while it's important to keep an eye on these incidents, it's also important to keep them in perspective.

"I'm leaving you!"
"But I'm pregnant!"

"slag!"

You're going to need a new soap. Eastenders is so London-centric.

Have you ever seen River City? Top quality soap straight from the streets of Glasgow. Looks like that's the last hurdle sorted 😛

"Leave it, 'e's not worf it (once the oil runs out)!"

Could independence lead to the resurrection of "Take the High Road" soap from the 1980/90's. Remember my Gran (Welsh btw) being addicted.
If I remember correctly was like "Emmerdale farm" but with better scenery.

Have you ever seen River City?

No, why would I want to watch foreigners on telly when I can watch perfectly good Welsh people instead?

grum - Member

But you don't seem to mind when people 'on your side' do it.

What you seem to be comparing here is random individuals on social media making mountains out of molehills (ie the "shop") vs elected members of parliament and public members of the Better Together campaign doing the same, and getting reported unchallenged in national media. Bit of a difference there.

Could independence lead to the resurrection of "Take the High Road" soap from the 1980/90's. Remember my Gran (Welsh btw) being addicted.
If I remember correctly was like "Emmerdale farm" but with better scenery.

Throw in a return for Monarch of the Glen and you'd swing the remaining undecideds I reckon :p

What you seem to be comparing here is random individuals on social media making mountains out of molehills (ie the "shop") vs elected members of parliament and public members of the Better Together campaign doing the same, and getting reported unchallenged in national media. Bit of a difference there.

Two wrongs don't make a right, etc.

Irelanst, Aracer
[url= http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/yes-campaigners-attacked-by-mob-outside-tynecastle-1-3527125 ]Yes campaigners attacked near Tynecastle[/url]
[url= http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-campaigner-80-attacked-1-3077094 ]80 year old man asaulted on the royal mile[/url]
There were hundreds of witnesses to the incident where Max Dunbar of the Britannica Party kicked a woman in the stomach and called her junky scum. He was arrested.

If a yes vote means more Monarch of the Glens Im changing my vote