[Closed] NOTTING HILL CARNIVAL

A 15-year-old boy was stabbed in Wornington Road on Sunday. His injuries were critical but are now non-life threatening. A 14-year-old boy was arrested.

Three other males, aged 15 to 20, were also wounded in knife attacks on the opening day of the festival.

What's more interesting to me is the age groups of the trouble makers. People say in London you're more likely to get trouble from bored teenagers than burly blokes out for a fight

i went once, i'd describe it as the closest i can imagine to actual hell.

only with more piss.

I dunno, if you look at some of the past events - riots, murders, etc, it doesn't seem to have been particularly bad this year?

i was there yesterday though and **** me, the event looks borderline unpoliceable. Massive crowds, confined space, I think the police were doing about as good a job as could be done. It was a great atmosphere generally and I didn't see a hint of trouble but there was nowhere to step away from the madness and calm down for half an hour. Bit of a potential pressure cooker.

What's more interesting to me is the age groups of the trouble makers. People say in London you're more likely to get trouble from bored teenagers than burly blokes out for a fight

isn't that always the case though? Whenever I've had any trouble - in any city - it's been bored teenage boys looking for excitement...

Doesn't look to be much more trouble than any other weekend in the capital?
Which is amazing really considering the scale and the crowds..

That sort of makes it a roaring success in my opinion, unless of course you have an ulterior motive?
Like not wanting a large and vibrant community to feel like they have any ability to organise themselves in a positive manner perhaps?

I went a couple of years ago after a break of about 10 years. It's kinda lost its charm, more of a huge Glam Fest with folks out to get pissed as newts and be rowdy and obnoxious. Shame, because the stalls and mini events happening around it were bloody excellent. Huge effort, ruined by morons.

A lot of what I have read this year is that the large and vibrant community would like it's local carnival back, without the crowds and low level violence.

Doesn't look to be much more trouble than any other weekend in the capital?

454 arrests at one event, more than 1000 treated by ambulance/1st aid and 43 police officers injured. At one event - doesn't sound like an average w/e in London to me..

unless of course you have an ulterior motive?

& in your opinion is what exactly?

This:

i was there yesterday though and **** me, the event looks borderline unpoliceable.

Doesn't sound like this:

Like not wanting a large and vibrant community to feel like they have any ability to organise themselves in a positive manner perhaps?

The problem, I think, Carnival now faces is that there is a growing contingent who seem to want to use the event to have a go at the police & pretty much anyone who else tries to stop their "fun".

Which is a crying shame, as I know how much effort some put into making a Carnival a friendly, welcoming, inclusive event.

The belligerent minority ruining it for the law abiding majority?

The belligerent minority ruining it for the law abiding majority?

as one of the law abiding majority I don't think anyone ruined it. I felt safer there than a Friday night in Plymouth or Doncaster.

Asked a friend if we should go, he said absolutely not "you'd hate it" - ie too crowded, too rowdy, too "right on"

The Met makes an average of 200,000+ arrests a year, so while 450-odd sounds like a lot for a single event, this is an event that has pretty much the biggest single 'attendance' of any in the UK (two million people is one number bandied about), and is heavily policed, so higher numbers of both offences and arrests are not a big surprise.

I'd be interested if other boroughs which were perhaps more lightly policed than usual over the weekend as officers were diverted to carnival had a corresponding fall in recorded crimes/arrests.

As above, 450 arrests out of a few million attending.

Its more to do with the wealthy that have moved to the area(and like they do whenever they move into a "trendy" area of London, they proceed to ruin it) not wanting this carnival on their doorstep.

No one outside London really cares.

Yet they're going to make an example of Fabric because of "the war on drugs" 🙄

No one outside London really cares

drunk humans stabbing each other in crowded and confined spaces....am I supposed to be surprised and outraged? Just another day in paradise guys, can't expect much better from a species about half a chromosome from being a chimpanzee.

[img] [/img]....

jambalaya - Member
Asked a friend if we should go, he said absolutely not "you'd hate it" - ie too crowded, too rowdy, too "right on"

OMG

I have it.

I finally figured out who you are.

It all adds up.

The selective truths, the political leanings, the disdain for lefty liberal hippy types.

Gentlemen, Jabalaya is none other than:

[img] [/img]

I'll claim my $300 tax rebate please.

(seriously, how old do you have to be to even remember anyone saying "right on"?)

Old enough to know that all the "left leaning right on hippies" are the people taking all the money.

They could close it down for all I care, just seems like an excuse for stabbing and steaming (group thefts/mugging).

It's a shame as a Londener you write that particular piece of anti promotion. However there is an element of truth. The carnival was original a celebration of West Indian/African culture attracting a wide audience by its music, flamboyance and food styles which are specific mostly to the Caribbean culture and were of course quite enlightening to the - at the time- lesser aware host population. As London has become more diverse and culturally integrated although this remains the core of the theme is is being watered down to a glorified street party. As above, stick 100'000 people in a city centre during any event and crimes will happen.

IMO from a spectator perspective although I enjoyed it 10 years ago, I'd rather fly over for a holiday to WI and see the real thing these days.

I think what's happened to it is this.. It's trying to be a festival ( like Glasto etc. ) but in the City, well Notting Hill. It seems to cater for all those folk who want to experience a festival, without actually going to one.
The nasty folks that frequent, just to pick pocket and get all stabby, are just opportunistic scumibags that would never go to a festival to actually enjoy it/themselves.
I do feel for the locals who have a rampant mob careering down your street, or nearby streets.

.

A lot of what I have read this year is that the large and vibrant community would like it's local carnival back, without the crowds and low level violence.

Interesting use of the word 'local' there, given that the demographics of Notting Hill have changed just ever so slightly since Carnival started..

I've been to countless music festivals and the like - I went to Notting Hill once! It wasn't for me as it was far too claustrophobic.
Norman Jay was great though!
As far as I can tell(reading ,local news over the years) , the fights/stabbings are often neighboring borough's gangs getting all territorial on each other.
Fwiw -I felt safer at carnival than I did in Whitehaven or Workington on a mad Friday.
I heard on the news that alot of Police were injured this time. Very Poor.
That is what will stop the carnival. How do you do a risk assement for a "worker" who is [u]likely[/u] to be injured at work?

The only time I went was in 1984 and it was truly awful, really tense, there was a skate park at the top of Ladbroke Grove where I think Steel Pulse were playing. me and a few others climbed to sit on top of some industrial units opposite so we could see better. Some poor sod managed to fall through the roof and I guess broke his legs, he was screaming for help. This was before mobile phones (ay up Grandad) we got down and left about 10 minutes later and he was still screaming away 🙁 It just felt very threatening, maybe it was the time, can't remember if there was any serious trouble but put me off ever going back.

the carnival is nothing like it was in the good ol days.

the atmosphere was brilliant and the the party started before the Friday and went on through the nights till Tuesday it was not confined to a few streets with the horrible bottlenecks and crushes but spread out everywhere. Everyone seemed to have a party going on in their front/back garden too.

If you did not go there and dance all night with thousnds of people and wake up in somebodys house/garden/park with a wearing a policemans helmet and other random carnival fashion items you have not been to the NH carnival.

/nostalgia

It is not worth the effort now I think.

It's too busy for me, been a couple of times over the years but can't be arsed with the crowds. People need to party and let off steam, I hope it doesn't get shut down. Maybe expand the area or something so it's more manageable, dunno the answers but stopping people from partying isn't good.

Interestingly enough the officer who ran the operation for Carnival has been quoted as saying he didn't think violence was an issue this year..

just saw some stats suggesting that the difference in arrests between last year and this (about 40) can be mostly accounted for by arrests for things that weren't illegal last year (38, mainly for N2O)...

I went around 10 years ago and didn't like it. There was something about the atmosphere that, while I couldn't put my finger on, just made me uncomfortable. My wife agreed. This was back when we were [s]hip[/s] down with the kids so wasn't middle class angst or anything to do with the demographics of the event. The main parade was fantastic but aside form that it was best avoided. Having said that, listening to the drunk guy with dreads piled on his head and having curry goat from his favourite place and not on from the street vendors was amazing.

"Never been.
Not likely to go.
Don't know anyone who has gone either.
And that's living in the capital for over 20 years."

Really? Blimey, you must hang around with some really, really boring people. 😆

Interestingly, the only people I've encountered who haven't been/wouldn't go, are uptight white lower middle class types, typical Mail and Express readers. The kind of people who will drone on about the 'massive crime levels', stabbings, robberies etc, where all the time you just know there's an undercurrent of racism behind it all. And why you'll see the crime highlighted in the media (assaults, robberies, rapes and many other crimes happen at many other festivals without nearly as much media attention). The Carnival has always attracted negative publicity, in a country which practically glamourises binge-drinking and weekend misbehaviour. On the same weekend, a man was attacked and killed by a gang of youths in a town centre, yet this received far less coverage.

Personally, I feel it's become a victim of it's own success, and far too big. I think it would be better to have a 'London Carnival' weekend, with events in different parts of the capital, to spread people about more evenly and safely. Carnival is great, but sadly, commercial interests are what's at the root of it getting too big for comfort.

where all the time you just know there's an undercurrent of racism behind it all

Really?

What else does your crystal ball tell you?

What other lazy stereotypes are you going to trot out?

Are we at the stage where questions can't be asked about pretty much anything without somebody crying "Racist!" or "Sexist!" or "Homophobic!" etc etc etc...

I & others have genuine concerns that Carnival is getting out of hand & it has FA to do with race.

Any event which unites a community, particularly challenged ones, in the way that Carnival used to (& I hope still does) is to be encouraged but in the same breath it should be also held up to scrutiny when it's needed.

Sorry to take you to task a little on this but I hate lazy stereotyping!

"Really?"

Afraid so. Dig a bit deeper with such people, and it invariably comes down to issues regarding race. Sorry, but in my experience, that's true.

"I & others have genuine concerns that Carnival is getting out of hand & it has FA to do with race."

Various people have been saying this since Carnival began. Yet there is a definite problem with an increase in rape and sexual assault at other festivals, yet there is very little public/media outcry over this. You certainly don't hear people calling for other festivals to be shut down because of it.

I've personally experienced many people expressing ultimately racist views when discussing Carnival. So, stereotyping, yes. Lazy, no.

I've been a couple of times and it was quite an eye opener the first time. You don't actually realise what it is until you go, it's not just the parade of people dancing. The best thing for me was the excellent drum n bass played very loudly in the street, it sounds so much better on proper big speakers in the outdoors surrounded by loads of mad heads going at it to the music. Great stuff.
I wasn't a fan of paying a tenner for a tray of curried goat or jerk chicken though.

I've never been but could the reason for the growth be that it's becoming commercialised?

Been a few times. Hated it. Too many people, too little space and it just felt stressful during the day and on the edge of violence at a few places in the evening/night.

not been for 7 or 8 years but it was always a lot of fun

can get a bit busy, but find a good spot and enjoy the partying and great food

either its got much worse or there are some really grumpy old codgers on here........ I wonder

I've personally experienced many people expressing ultimately racist views when discussing Carnival. So, stereotyping, yes. Lazy, no.

Sorry, but are you calling me racist just because I've expressed concerns about the ongoing viability of Carnival?

It does rather sound it..

"Sorry, but are you calling me racist just because I've expressed concerns about the ongoing viability of Carnival?

It does rather sound it.."

Not unless you're an idiot. 🙄

To clarify: I've heard people call for Carnival to be stopped, who have then gone on to reveal xenophobic views which formed the basis of their argument. I've not accused you or anyone else on here expressing concerns about the future viability of the event, of being racist. How you'd jump to that conclusion is way beyond me.

Interestingly, the only people I've encountered who haven't been/wouldn't go, are uptight white lower middle class types, typical Mail and Express readers. The kind of people who will drone on about the 'massive crime levels', stabbings, robberies etc, where all the time you just know there's an undercurrent of racism behind it all.

I wouldn't want to go because its not really my thing. So I'm an uptight white lower middle class racist am I?

I loved the carnival, went a few times. The last time though (about 10 years ago?)* I got involved in something I should've walked away from and out comes a knife. I legged it down the canal and got as far as Paddington before my HR returned to somewhere near normal! That was about the only trouble I ever saw there.

*Tried to report it at Paddington Green nick but they wouldn't let me in as they were holding some high profile terrorism suspect - not sure if that dates it, 2005 maybe?

actually clophopper, you've said that anyone who doesn't like it / want to go / are concerned over the viability is in some way raciest / xenophobic. Even if ot at first glance, you only need to dig a little deeper. I'll happily admit to being white and middle class. London is great for a couple of days but I bloody hate massive crowds of people I equally don't go to Glastonbury despite it being about 5 miles from home and having free tickets. No real idea of what the carnival is like but thousands of people crammed into a small space just isn't my idea of a great time.
Am I racist? No, don't think so*. Certainly not due to not wanting to go to a sodding carnival!
Now think really hard. Who's being an idiot here?

*some of my best friends are...

"I wouldn't want to go because its not really my thing. So I'm an uptight white lower middle class racist am I?"

Only if you want to be. 🙄

"actually clophopper, you've said that anyone who doesn't like it / want to go / are concerned over the viability is in some way raciest / xenophobic."

No; what I [i]actually[/i] said, was:

[i]"Interestingly, the only people [b]I've[/b] encountered who haven't been/wouldn't go, are uptight white lower middle class types, typical Mail and Express readers. The kind of people who will drone on about the 'massive crime levels', stabbings, robberies etc, where all the time you just know there's an undercurrent of racism behind it all. "[/i]

Notice that I haven't actually said that " anyone who doesn't like it / want to go / are concerned over the viability is in some way raciest / xenophobic." I haven't said that at all. I'd appreciate it if you didn't mis-quote me.

IE; the only people [i]I've[/i] encountered who oppose carnival have been white, lower middle class Mail/Telegraph reading [b]closet racists[/b].

Please notice the distinction. It's very important. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough earlier.

Right; have we cleared this nonsense up? Good. 😀

Couple of interesting articles about Carnival:

http://www.antoinespeaks.co.uk/this-bbc-picture-accidently-sums-up-the-gentrification-of-notting-hill-carnival-heres-3-things-ruining-carnival/

http://www.antoinespeaks.co.uk/in-defence-of-notting-hill-carnival-black-culture-if-you-want-to-ban-carnival-due-to-crime-then-ban-football-nightclubs-and-epsom-derby-day/

mrlebowski - Member

454 arrests at one event, more than 1000 treated by ambulance/1st aid and 43 police officers injured. At one event - doesn't sound like an average w/e in London to me..

It's all about volume. It's much like music festivals- people always report "45 arrested at Reading Festival" and it sounds a lot but if you have 100000 people having a party for 3 days, and spread it out the equivalent number of friday nights in a city centre, or football matches, it looks very different. 2 million people, 2 days, 450 arrests, it's not really so high.

"Jobby found floating in water" is bad news if it's your water bottle but less worrying if it's the sea.

I used to live up the road from it. After a few times we stopped going. Near the start of the procession you could literally feel the hatred. As it turned dusk was the worse though.

It needs moving (away from people's homes( or cancelling IMO.

I've been to other carnivals and there's a different vibe to them. Sadly the Nottinghill one feels scary.

"Near the start of the procession you could literally feel the hatred."

What hatred? I've been many times, and never felt any 'hatred'.

I agree it's too big for the area it's in. I agree it can feel very claustrophobic. I agree that there are inadequate facilities for the volume of people. I agree there are some minority elements bent on causing trouble. I agree that there can be issues when some individuals get drunk. I don't agree with the mainly right-wing sensationalist media's claims of it being 'marred by crime' etc.

And the Met Police Commander in charge of the event doesn't seem to think there were 'massive issues' either:

http://news.met.police.uk/news/statement-from-police-commander-for-notting-hill-carnival-2016-182480

[i]"I am very proud of all the officers and staff who were deployed to Carnival this year. Once again they demonstrated their unwavering professionalism and bravery to ensure this spectacular celebration, that headlines the London event calendar, was not spoilt by a small minority wishing to use the Carnival a cover for committing crime."[/i]

I don't see any evidence to support the view that carnival is "getting out of hand". I've been going on and off since the mid nineties and it's remained pretty much the same as far as I can see.

It's all about volume. It's much like music festivals- people always report "45 arrested at Reading Festival" and it sounds a lot but if you have 100000 people having a party for 3 days, and spread it out the equivalent number of friday nights in a city centre, or football matches, it looks very different. 2 million people, 2 days, 450 arrests, it's not really so high.

Agreed, but the fact that it's all happening in such a condensed area - bit of a pressure cooker IMHO.

Which leads me to this:

I agree it's too big for the area it's in. I agree it can feel very claustrophobic. I agree that there are inadequate facilities for the volume of people. I agree there are some minority elements bent on causing trouble. I agree that there can be issues when some individuals get drunk. I don't agree with the mainly right-wing sensationalist media's claims of it being 'marred by crime' etc.

Which I also agree with.

I think it would be better off moved to larger area, but then I think you'd lose that Carnival vibe - the bass bouncing off buildings, the sound systems echoing up the streets long before you've reached them & the bumping, grinding mass of humanity which you get pulled along with.

It's a difficult one with no clear answer, though if the powers that be are content then it should just be allowed to carry on.

(But there's never anything wrong with asking the question or is there?)

Is it time to end Carnival?

No!

The whole point of a carnival is that it is transgressive.

Societies all over the world have a tradition of taking over the streets for the odd weekend every year, to drink, dance and have a good time. There's a town in Germany I think where the annual tradition is to lock the Mayor and the Chief of Police in a cell, then all go out into the street and get p!ssed.

The reality of carnivals in modern cities is that they require licences, permissions, etc. You may wonder why the policing nightmare that is the Notting Hill Carnival is so readily permitted. It's because 1. It's a safety valve. People need to blow off some steam every now and then. and 2. not even the police are so mean-spirited as to try to stop thousands and thousands of people from having fun on a summer weekend. 3. It's an important cultural event for people of West Indian descent, and we live in a society where people are free to celebrate their cultures.

The Notting Hill Carnival should not be "banned" because of the actions of a few thugs any more than cycling events should be stopped because of the bellends who throw their gel wrappers into hedgerows.

The Notting Hill Carnival should not be "banned" because of the actions of a few thugs any more than cycling events should be stopped because of the bellends who throw their gel wrappers into hedgerows.

Gel wrapper V 450 arrests, 43 cops injured, 8 needing hospital treatment.

Are many people stabbed at cycling events?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/aug/30/notting-hill-carnival-arrests-hit-record-high

Well said hebdencyclist

Gel wrapper V 450 arrests, 43 cops injured, 8 needing hospital treatment.

as I said earlier.. probably not massively dissimilar to any other weekend in the capital

great alarmist reporting though