yes exactly. perhaps I misinterpreted, but I thought TheLittlestHobo was trying to present two contradictory positions...
I would never say boys are better or girls are better at anything
We had this conversation at home (two 8 year old girls) and one is particularly sporty. We recently said (after watching the World Athletics sprint finals) that at the moment the fastest person in the world is a man but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman.
Whats wrong with the balance we have now?
I think this is the crux of the matter. Some people don't see a problem, generally those who benefit. Those who don't do see a problem and would like to change things so that the benefits and concurrent costs are equal.
Feminism, antiracism (etc.) 101 isn't it?
that at the moment the fastest person in the world is a man but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman.
In the longer distance races the difference is decreasing quite quickly apparently. Looking forward to mixed professional football* now!
*Actually, that's rubbish I don't like football.
but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman
how so?
somehow modern parenting is pushing our kids in the wrong direction just because it doesn't suit the minorities opinion (We surely are agreed that the majority parent in the traditional manner).
"We've always done it this way" is the worst reason to do anything.
Just because there is a disparity means we should overcompensate. Whats wrong with the balance we have now?
We don't have balance, that's the point.
Your little girl is going to be growing up in a society which is essentially brainwashing her into being a pink princess, into a world where she will be told over and over and over that unless she's beautiful, stick-thin and has a nice man to take care of her then her life is void.
If you don't tell her that she could be a tennis player, an astrophysicist, a drummer, an engineer, a kick-boxer, or basically whatever she wants to be, [i]no-one else is going to.[/i]
It's not about stopping her being a "girl," rather it's about broadening her horizons; it's about exposing her to options, ideas and opportunities outside of the stereotype.
MoreCashThanDash - MemberSo many people commenting on a thread about a TV programme without watching it, understanding what the experiment was trying to do, or seeing the outcomes.
Let me guess was it hard hitting journalism, investigating why the real science behind the actual differences between men and women is being ignored in favour of ever more radical lies to the point where the correct thing to believe is that ALL GENDER is a social construction and anyone who disagrees should be doxed?
Or was it a fluff piece about how pink clothing stops girls from becoming lumberjacks?
allthegear - MemberWhy? Because the balance we have now is causing things such as the "Google Memo".
This is a perfect snapshot of the issue. The "Google Memo" was correct. It was a well reasoned document at the heart of which was the argument that we should treat people as individuals. People should be assessed on individual merits, and in order to encourage more women to work in google it would be better to change the working culture in google to be more accommodating to women as opposed to using illegal practices to artificially "fix" the demographics.
James Damore used legitimate peer reviewed science to back up his statement that Google is a left wing ideological echo chamber. The backlash and the fact that he was sacked is elegant proof he was correct. The media backlash was also very telling. His argument was completely mischaracterised, the people he gave interviews to were slandered and the media deferred to radical feminist idealogues instead of scientists.
Of course they would probably struggle to get legitimate scientists to comment since they would quickly loose their jobs if they did.
We absolutely should treat every person as an individual regardless of gender or race and encourage them to be the best people they can be but that doesn't change the fact that human beings are sexually dimorphic.
It's nice to imagine that we are ethereal creatures unconstrained by biology but we aren't.
but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman
how so?
By running faster than all the men, I'd imagine.
allthegear - Being on the lucky side. Not sure I agree tbh. Given that I have a son and a daughter I see it that my daughter is on the lucky side. That's an interesting link but I don't see its relevance other than maybe the influence google can effect. A bit like Trump, I choose what influence it effects on me.
doris - I cant say it any clearer, I believe that todays female gender has as much chance, if not more chance to succeed where their male counterpart has. You can bring up every issue that is ongoing at present but imo this is fast changing and in the near future (My kids generation) this will possibly start to go the other way.
johndoh - yep, I also have a particularly sporty girl. In fact I would go so far as to say she hasn't met a boy of her age who can get anywhere near her motor skills. She taught herself to do a back summersault in 15mins a few weeks ago when she watched a competitive gymnast do it at the climbing wall and she decided she wanted to do it. She was recently challenged to a pull up comp at school (After climbing the firemans pole) by another boy. He did a couple. My daughter got to 10 and asked if he wanted her to continue. She would laugh if anyone said a boy was better than her.
Sorry Cougar, I can talk some bollocks but this takes the biscuit. Do you live in the 50's
[i]Your little girl is going to be growing up in a society which is essentially brainwashing her into being a pink princess, into a world where she will be told over and over and over that unless she's beautiful, stick-thin and has a nice man to take care of her then her life is void.
If you don't tell her that she could be a tennis player, an astrophysicist, a drummer, an engineer, a kick-boxer, or basically whatever she wants to be, no-one else is going to.[/i]
TLH - yeah, my daughter is the third quickest over 60m in her year (60 children, of which 45 are boys). And the way she does (self-taught) martial arts I doubt many of them would want to take her on in a fight either (she can put me in an arm lock despite my best efforts)! And she only weighs 19kg - light as a feather LOL
Edit - and she has a drum kit (in reference to ^^^)
🙂
but there could be a time when the fastest person is a womanhow so?
By running faster than all the men, I'd imagine.
aha ha ha. ha. ha.
jondoh - so in other words, she is living her life the way she wants to live it. Would you honestly say she is being railroaded down any track that she doesn't want to be? Does she get easily influenced by others?
My issue here is that people are taking offence at things because its there in general life and is the choice of the majority. Of course its going to cause some kind of subliminal influence to those that maybe wouldn't follow that path if it weren't there. However this doesn't necessarily make it wrong. If they get their way we may end up with our children struggling to deal with having strong boy/girl traits that don't fit in to the 'petals & sunshine' lives they seem to think this will bring.
Bottom line, bring your kids up the best you can and try to instill personal choice and confidence into them. After that, its a guessing game that its dangerous to alter too much
Sorry Cougar, I can talk some bollocks but this takes the biscuit. Do you live in the 50's
Cougar's right, just have a look in the clothes shops, the magazines, the TV programmes, advertising, toy shops etc. It's so obvious that the messages are there, and fed to us and our kids on a daily, hourly basis. Sure individually they're pretty benign*, but add them all up and you get kids with attitudes as displayed in the programme.
*Although thinking about it many of them aren't. I tried to get school shoes for our kids (boy and girl) recently, nice heavy duty stuff that could cope with running around and climbing trees that kind of thing. Easy enough for son, minimal choice for daughter (everything is open foot, shallow sole, minimal rubber protection). She's six and being restricted by footwear choices already!
Ignore it, claim it doesn't represent modern society if you want, but I'm afraid the evidence is everywhere.
but that doesn't change the fact that [b]the majority of[/b] human beings are sexually dimorphic.
Not everyone is 'binary' at birth. Take for instance someone who is born with androgen insensitivity syndrome. Chromosome wise they are XY but physically they present as 'female' so are frequently 'assigned' female.
Much of the understanding about 'intersex' has occurred in the period after the second world war so we are still only beginning to fully appreciate the number of variants - although there is no getting away from the fact that some harm has been done along the way in order to concede to the pressures of a binary society.
Peyote - So you totally agree with this
[i]If you don't tell her that she could be a tennis player, an astrophysicist, a drummer, an engineer, a kick-boxer, or basically whatever she wants to be, no-one else is going to.[/i]
Agree about the shoe choice. I don't have this issue because my girl doesn't mind about dressing in what a stereotypical girl would wear. However I probably would steer her towards more appropriate shoes for her which would be the boys styles. Its her choice, if she wants a more traditional style shoe like the boys are wearing then crack on, they wont refuse to sell her them and the school wouldn't have an issue.
jondoh - so in other words, she is living her life the way she wants to live it. Would you honestly say she is being railroaded down any track that she doesn't want to be? Does she get easily influenced by others?
I would like to think that she is - we give her the opportunities we can afford to allow her to and she decides what she likes. She is the one I mentioned in an earlier post that sometimes wears all black. But she equally likes pretty things (although not bothered about jewellery/make-up like her twin). However there certainly are outside influences though - she is now becoming aware of her body (this will be because of the boys in her year projecting their emotions on to her).
johndoh - Is that any different to the girls teasing boys when they go through puberty and their voice breaks etc. We cant help physical attraction, kids growing up and life. We cant shield our kids from everything. Sometimes we just hope we have brought them up as best we can. I went through bullying, my son went through bullying and its the hardest thing to deal with. My daughter will drop kick anyone who even thinks about bullying her.
My daughter was told by her peers that she shouldn't like Star Wars cos it's for boys. She is pretty sensitive to criticism so she was distraught. But it's more than just being transiently upset; it's being told that your desires and choices are wrong and bad, that you are essentially a wrong un. This is terrible for self esteem, and that seriously affects your life.
My daughter will drop kick anyone who even thinks about bullying her.
Violence is no more the solution for girls than it is for boys. That won't work when she starts her first job, will it?
johndoh - Is that any different to the girls teasing boys when they go through puberty and their voice breaks etc. We cant help physical attraction, kids growing up and life. We cant shield our kids from everything.
I am not defending anyone or stopping anything, I was simply trying to answer your questions. I just want to give my children the opportunity to express themselves as best they can.
I cant comment on your kid molgrips, its not right. I can only comment on my own experiences and I have not experienced anyone ever show that kind of attitude towards my daughter. Maybe I mix in more mature and civilised circles.
Yeah, drag every comment over the coals now. You know what I meant. How about i am confident that if she were put in a position where someone was trying to bully her she would either be strong enough to ensure she was safe or self confident enough to deal with herself or aware enough to escalate it for help. Does that cover everything
Another little thing about my little one - she also has a fascination with the war (her bedtime book almost every night is a Children's encyclopaedia of the World Wars). This isn't a passing fad – she is about to start year 4 and she first started asking questions in reception year at Armistice Day and I have encouraged her interest (I have an interest in it and soon the wars will pass into history). One time they had to build a scene from their favourite book and there was the usual scenes from 'Bunny Cakes', 'The Dinosaur that Ate Christmas', 'Gruffalo' etc. She built a shoebox WW1 trench complete with firing steps, barbed wire etc. I was so proud 🙂
Edit: Here we go...
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I have not experienced anyone ever show that kind of attitude towards my daughter.
But of course, you are not there every break time are you?
Yeah, drag every comment over the coals now.
This whole thread (and indeed part of the original programme) was about the insidious nature of the little things we say that we think are inconsequential.
That's fantastic johndoh 🙂
molgrips - what would you have me do? Have a wire put on her so I can hear everything that is said to her. Most of my arguments is based around bringing my child up to be of strong enough mind and spirit to be able to make her own choices. Maybe you will effect more change by doing something similar
Why do shoe shops sell a certain type of shoe - to cater for the demand that exists or to force feed a stereotype on those who know no better?
Possibly because market research says that's what styles will sell the best. If those styles start to become unpopular then they would drop them like a hot brick.
Do you really think someone in head office stands there saying lets influence the next generation and make sure them girls stay in their little pigeon holes?
Market forces determine whats on the shoe shop shelf. If you don't like it, don't buy them
I have seen ladies/girls post up pictures of the bikes on here emblazoned with pink everything from hubs to tyres. Are these ladies pulled to bits by the mob mentality? Do people point out how belittling these bikes are or how they are putting back the equality movement by 20yrs? Or do they get a pat on the back for having a distinctive bike in the colour they like and enjoy riding.
Pink has always been associated with girls. It has been associated with homosexual blokes and I dare say some embrace that and some are possibly offended by it. Doesn't make it wrong
Are these ladies pulled to bits by the mob mentality?
Wait - is that what's happening here?
molgrips - what would you have me do?
Nothing - I'm not criticising you. I'm saying that just because you aren' seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening.
And your daughter may well be able to make her own choices, which is good, but if there are perceived negative judgements from everyone it might be affecting her anyway. Something to bear in mind.
Do you really think someone in head office stands there saying lets influence the next generation and make sure them girls stay in their little pigeon holes?
No. Some companies pander to whatever sells, some companies make a stand and try and shape the market in a more progressive manner.
Possibly because market research says that's what styles will sell the best. If those styles start to become unpopular then they would drop them like a hot brick.
Indeed
Do you really think someone in head office stands there saying lets influence the next generation and make sure them girls stay in their little pigeon holes?
No - that's my point.
Mol - any examples ?
Its her choice, if she wants a more traditional style shoe like the boys are wearing then crack on, they wont refuse to sell her them and the school wouldn't have an issue.
Except that choice is very limited, and often limited not just by the manufacturers, the shoe shops themselves, the school uniform code, but also the desires of the parents and their peers.
It's the "death by a thousand cuts approach", society tells little girls they should behave a certain way, look a certain way and play a certain way. Sure they have a "choice" not to conform, but that choice is limited by everything else. Not sure why that is difficult to appreciate?
Do you really think someone in head office stands there saying lets influence the next generation and make sure them girls stay in their little pigeon holes?
Probably not consciously (not sure if that is being over generous, but I try not to hold with conspiracy theories too much), but the end result is the same.
TheLittlestHobo - MemberI have seen ladies/girls post up pictures of the bikes on here emblazoned with pink everything from hubs to tyres. Are these ladies pulled to bits by the mob mentality? Do people point out how belittling these bikes are or how they are putting back the equality movement by 20yrs? Or do they get a pat on the back for having a distinctive bike in the colour they like and enjoy riding.
Those poor stupid women have been brainwashed into believing they are expressing their personality and their femininity. What they are actually doing is perpetuating a negative stereotype which suppresses women and stomps on face of young girls who dream of being special forces snipers and refuse collection technicians.
Market forces determine whats on the shoe shop shelf. If you don't like it, don't buy them
Don't worry, when the patriarchy is smashed and capitolist wrong think is eradicated we can replace pink shoes with a government mandated gender neutral non binary foot covering.
Except back when it was first associated with boys.Pink has always been associated with girls.
Pink has always been associated with girls. It has been associated with homosexual blokes and I dare say some embrace that and some are possibly offended by it. Doesn't make it wrong
My 1989 Tufftrax is pink, classic colour style from the eighties! I do get a bit of gip from the local kids, but that just confirms the prejudices their parents/peers have instilled in them...
There's nothing wrong with pink, except if that is what you're expected to like to the exclusion of all* else!
* Obvs, pastel shades, baby blue etc are acceptable, though not as sought after...
My neighbour's daughter is a v talented athlete despite the fact her first school stopped competitive races after she kept winning them all. It wasn't fair apparently.
http://lettoysbetoys.org.uk/category/blog/
Don't worry, when the patriarchy is smashed and capitolist wrong think is eradicated
Reactionary sarcasm doesn't do you or your argument any favours.
Pink has always been associated with girl
You're wrong. In fact it was once the other way round. Also in the 1970s pink wasn't particularly in evidence. Looking back at photos from then I can see that neither me nor my friends had pink stuff - clothes or toys. Babies wore lots of yellow and white. My first bike was red, no pink or glitter or unicorn sticker in sight.
On a point slightly away from the programme, the issue is not just how some parents and marketing folks treat girls but how women treat other women who don't conform. Pretty much through my 20s and 30s I was generally ignored and excluded socially by all-female groups as I was viewed as a tomboy. Thankfully I had plenty of male friends and a few like-minded female friends but at times when I was younger the exclusion made me feel like I wasn't a real woman, which is nonsense!
I've not seen the programme or read all this what exactly are we arguing about?
My first bike was red, no pink or glitter or unicorn sticker in sight.
"Powered by fairy dust"?
I've not seen the programme or read all this what exactly are we arguing about?
An obvious solution presents itself. Do you talk through the first half of a film and then spend the second half going "who's he / why's she doing that / what are they going there for"?
(I've not seen the programme either, but have read the thread.)
I can't be bothered to watch films I just get Mrs Zip to give me a 10 second synopsis.
I think you've just described my sex life.
Pink has always been associated with girl
Not a thing in other countries either btw.
vickypea - Member
Pink has always been associated with girlYou're wrong. In fact it was once the other way round.
molgrips - MemberNot a thing in other countries either btw.
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