[Closed] No Lynx to Kielder anytime soon ..

It is scary enough in the forest at night without having the potential of Lynx to worry about. But as I no longer live there I think it is a great idea.

It would just give an added adrenaline rush from my point of view ..😁

Seriously though an initial test of four females and two males in the vastness of a 200 square miles forest ..what are the chances of ever spotting one when they are meant to be shy creatures anyway ?

Collared & tracked ..I can't see the harm in giving it a trial...

Sheep farmers and redsocks will likely prevent it ever happening.

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/scotland-could-support-400-wild-lynx/

 “Any private organisation wishing to release lynx in Scotland would need a licence from Scottish Natural Heritage and we are not aware of any such application,” she added.

*coughs* Beavers

It is scary enough in the forest at night without having the potential of Lynx to worry about.

There are no recorded cases of Eurasian Lynxes attacking humans. I guess if cornered they could be dangerous but chances of that happening are minimal.  Its not like they are suggesting releasing mountain lions.

Would help deal with the ever increasing deer population.

*coughs* Beavers

I’m not aware of beaver being much of a threat to livestock, other than the possibility of a sheep wandering into a beaver-created wetland and drowning.

I thought that one of the big weaknesses of the papers they submitted in an attempt to justify the trial was that they literally appeared to have no idea at all what the potential effect on the Feral Goat population (that have lived on the border for generations) would be.

They optimistically said that the Lynx could "help to control" the population without even appearing to establish the current population churn and culling regime that the Goats were subject to. The goats have already been under pressure for some years due to fencing and culling on the Scottish side, their failure to account for or consider any of this seemed remarkably amateurish to me.

Would help deal with the ever increasing deer population.

Its been quite some years since I had access to the survey and cull data for the deer at Kielder, but when I did it was pretty stable

I guess if cornered they could be dangerous but chances of that happening are minimal.

There would be gangs out in force with their lurchers and pit bulls just as soon as any locations were confirmed.

I have no issue with the reintroduction but it needs to be done properly.

Via some farming frinds of mine I joined a debate with the lynx trust on this and their attitude and planning was appalling - full of major obvious errors and wishful thinking.  For example -" sheep farmers who lose sheep will be compensated" "where will the money come from?" "from the money that the increased visitors to the area will spend"

They said the lynx live in woodland edges and will predate deer - the trouble is the plantation woodland is fenced off to keep the deer out so there will be little prey for the lynx in the woodland forcing them out into farmers fields where nice dim slow tasty sheep live.  they ewven asserted in scotland the lynx would predate deer only - simply impossible given the lynx live in woodland and the ddeer are excluded.

Hopeless bunch of folk that want to reintroduce Lynx and wish all issues away with airy fairy nonsense

Lots of issues in south of france since they re introduced wolves . they kill huge numbers of sheeps . 2 last week ends less than 50 miles from my house . And the farmers only get paid if the dead sheep is found and it is proven a wolf killed it .

Deer fences don't really work. Go into any fenced off woodland, there will be plenty of deer. And its easy to find the impact of grazing on trees. So the lynx would find plenty to eat.

I’m not aware of beaver being much of a threat to livestock, other than the possibility of a sheep wandering into a beaver-created wetland and drowning.

The point I was alluding to is that SNH were powerless in the illegal release of beavers by a private collector in Perthshire. I’m not aware of any private collections of lynx, but if there are captive breeding collections and they were released, there would be little SNH could do about it.

Aren't SNH too busy dishing out other licences?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/petition-urges-rethink-on-proposed-raven-cull-1-4731708

Deer fences do work and work well - certainly in the bits of scotland I have roamed around in.

Aren’t SNH too busy dishing out other licences?

Indeed - pretty ****ing stupid ones too.

Which bits of Scotland? And how do you know whether there are any deer inside the woodland or not?

Fences are easily damaged by typical Scottish weather, they need a lot of expensive maintenance. A roe deer can fit through a pretty small hole in a fence. If a fox can get through, so could a roe deer. And muntjac are even smaller.

there are not many roe and muntjac - mainly reds in scotland which is what I was thinking off.  You only have to see the differnce in vegitation each side of the fencing to know that the reds don't get thru the fencing

Tj There is a bigger Roe population than Red in Scotland

And the farmers only get paid if the dead sheep is found and it is proven a wolf killed it .

Seems fair enough given that sheep spend most of their short lives trying to find ever more stupid ways to kill themselves.

beinbhan - I am very surprised by that.  See plenty of reds in the highlands, only seen a roe once

Roe deer live in dense woodland, they are not easily spotted. Also difficult for stalkers to shoot them.

Muntjac are becoming increasingly common, seem to be spreading north. And sika deer, and wild boar.

Roe deer are the preferred diet for lynx. A lynx would struggle to kill an adult red deer.

TJ - I'd see roe deer most times I was riding in the evenings around Balerno. You'll find them almost anywhere there are woods. Certainly loads round Rothiemurchus etc

I asumed that any lynx reintroduction would take place as part of a more general rewilding exercise and where that's happening, deer fencing is slowly being removed. We're not talking about massive Sitka plantations. They're incompatible with red deer anyway and contain little of much interest for a hungry cat.

Could it work up here? Maybe. Certainly more feasible than wolves. Paul Lister should redirect his energies at Alladale.

As I said - I have no issue if done properly but the folk behind this are not trying to do it properly.  thats the main issue for me.  Lack of realistic attitudes.

Seems fair enough given that sheep spend most of their short lives trying to find ever more stupid ways to kill themselves.

I watched sheep beating each other up the other day.  A small gang of them headbutting each other with remarkable violence, then ramming from side on and still attacking once the victim was on the floor.  Is this normal sheep behaviour? It was seriously violent.

Unfortunately no Lynx to draw things to a  conclusion.

A small gang of them headbutting each other with remarkable violence, then ramming from side on and still attacking once the victim was on the floor.

Vicious baaaastards.

It's a bit of a daft trial.

Can 6 Lynx survive in Keilder? Probably.

and then what? A mass re-introduction programme into Northumberland and Scotland? I don't think for a minute that would get wide support, so what's the point? other than to satisfy to curiosity of some zoologists, and re-wilding enthusiasts.

It’s a bit of a daft trial.

Can 6 Lynx survive in Keilder? Probably.

and then what? A mass re-introduction programme into Northumberland and Scotland?

Why not?  Sea Eagles have been successfully reintroduced, as have beavers. In both cases the economy and wider ecology has benefited. So why not reintroduce Lynx more widely?

Seriously? You must surely be able to guess that conceptually there might be a difference in the public's view point between say; a bird and a big(ish, admittedly) cat?

To be clear, I want to be on the "It would be cool to have Lynx back" side of the argument, but we're talking an animal that was last here with the Romans were being kicked out. We've never (as a current society) lived with large predatory animals like bears, wolves and big cats, (like parts of the Western USA still do)  and we've long lost every trace of how to cope with and live alongside animals like this, and TBH my gut reaction is that it would unfair on the animals to be placed in that environment.

I find myself agreeing with nickc's point above. It would be fantastic to see them back in the wild and at little to no risk to humans. However I also this that the point...

There would be gangs out in force with their lurchers and pit bulls just as soon as any locations were confirmed.

reinforces the point as to why it would be a bad idea. Also the mass hysteria across social media if there was any negative human / lynx interactions would result in more misery for them. On reflection, lets not until we as a nation can cope with it.

...so what’s the point? other than to satisfy to curiosity of some zoologists, and re-wilding enthusiasts.

In a world where all of our natural resources and wildlife are consumed by money and greed, I'd support anyone who takes an interest in this kind of thing. We need it. Perhaps we don't need Lynx specifically, but we do need people to address the massive imbalances we have created in the modern world. Our way of living is not sustainable.

But as already mentioned it will get shot down, with short-term profit being the primary reason.

A proper reintroduction done well would be great.  However it would need robust safeguards especially for farmers and none hve been proposed?

As for the sea eagles.  1/3 of them have been killed by gamekeepers ( IIRC ninfan)  Certainly significant numbers have been and still are being illegally killed.  they are still low in their numbers and barely viable because of the killing by gamekeepers

Lynx poses pretty much zero risk to humans they’re not going to start seeking out lone mountain bikers.

Drac, absolutely, I think my worry is the opposite happening  (but not mountain bikers, obvs, as we're all lovely an shit.)

Lynx are too small to take adult red deer and wouldn't take a healthy adult roe either, too big and too risky a challenge.  A big wild lynx is only about 20kg, so just twice the size of my domestic cat.  Who admittedly regularly takes hares and pheasants as he's a bit above average, but I digress.  Lynx predate on everything from vole size up to a young or weakened roe deer but like every predator, have to balance the need to eat with the risk of being damaged in the chase and capture.

There are huge numbers of roe in Scotland's rural landscape, on the lower hills and in the mixed woodlands; I saw several this morning on my regular ride into Dundee from out in Angus.  Across ancient Europe, roe and lynx were part of a balanced woodland ecosystem and were interdependent, in the same way that wolves and red deer/elk depended on each other.

Large flocks of intensively farmed sheep are a nightmare in our climate, causing more damage than good and only existing where state support provides a financial incentive to grow them.  For what it's worth, I think we have far too many sheep in our uplands as it is and they only serve to perpetuate a starkly empty landscape with artificial financial support from the state into the pockets of the privileged few (the landlords, usually, not the farmers) once again.  I'd like to see agricultural support withdrawn from sheep farming anyway, to help re-balance the rural environment and to reduce the amount of flooding and erosion caused.  Bringing back lynx into the remote Highlands would help disincentivise the sheep farmers.  Rents would fall, then maybe we'd see a few less absentee landlords and a few more crofting community buy outs returning, with smaller amounts of high quality lamb & mutton, carefully protected from lynx the old way- by a shepherd with a big dog.

I think my worry is the opposite happening

Doubt that would be a significant problem. Outside of females denning they dont have the same sort of mostly fixed locations like badgers and foxes have.

A big wild lynx is only about 20kg, so just twice the size of my domestic cat.

Eurasian Lynx are small in "Big Cat" terms but an adult males starts at about 20kg, but most are more like 30kg, and if you're cat is 10kgs it's either a Maine Coon or very very fat, as most cats are about 4kgs!!

Yeh, that’s a massive domestic cat at 10kg.

Shit loads of Roe Deer in Scotland.

I am clearly corrected on the Roe deer  *tips hat*

However it would need robust safeguards especially for farmers and none hve been proposed?

I thought funding had been proposed (above and beyond the normal tax payer subsidies)?

The reviews in Europe are mixed. The only place there seems to be a significant issue is in Norway where the sheep are left free ranging into wooded areas.  Elsewhere with farming practices more similar to the UK numbers lost are low.

x6 Sheep / Lambs killed by Pet Dogs in White Coppice area in May 2018 to add some balance

I imagine if the conversation were about legalising dog ownership after centuries of not being allowed them the argument would be firmly in the "no, too much risk, mess, etc" camp.

But a dog's got personality.  Personality goes a long way

So does a small dog if TJ catches it with his boot.

Do you not dig bacon?

So does a small dog if TJ catches it with his boot.

He wouldn't be so keen to hoof a lynx in the slats i'll wager.

Do you not dig bacon?

Bacon tastes good. Pork chops taste good.

Basically, what i'm saying is .....

It would need to be one charming mother***** lynx

dissonance - they had not identified where the funding for compensation would come from - just claimed there would be compensation available

The lynx has been protected here in Spain for a number of years and is slowly making a comeback, it was down to less than a hundred at one point. I'm not aware of any complaints from farmers about sheep going missing - unlike the complaints you can hear now with the wolf slowly making a comeback in central Spain...

Of course, Britain already has an ongoing rewilding experiment with dangerous wild animals ongoing,,, accidentally.

Radio 4 programme on Wild Boar very interesting, particularly the realisation of the level of cull needed just to keep on top of the population, and of course the political aspects of culling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b080wbwy

TJ, on the red/roe issue, IIRC the NTS were somewhat surprised that after spending £££ slaughtering the red at Mar Lodge to get their precious “fence free” trees established, they found that the roe population exploded to fill the vacuum, only they are a shed load more difficult to cull than reds on the hill (as they are territorial woodland animals) so they are still paying out £££ on an endless cycle. FWIW It’s my opinion that “lots of small fenced areas” is the best way to establish regeneration and a healthy mosaic of woodland growth rather than trying to fence the perimeter, and still leaves a healthy, sustainable red deer population that can follow traditional patterns and overwinter in the forest rather than starve on the hill.

On the Lynx, as I said above, great idea, but these people just aren’t the ones to come up with any sort of realistic plan to do it.

Yes, my mog is 10kg and while he isn't fat either, at just over 3feet long nose to tail is perfectly capable of taking brown hares when the mood takes him.  He's got no Maine Coon nor Norwegian in him either; he's just a big, ginger furry lump.  It's the second cat beast I've had that size; his predecessor was even longer and delighted in running down rabbits on open grassland, just because he could...  both came from hill farms in Angus and I weaned both on venison trimmings.

I think that 30kg for a wild lynx in Scotland is overly optimistic, as in this country they will be 'living on the edge' all the time and are unlikely to reach the weight of those in friendlier environments.  Again, I'd love to see them here as a viable population but suspect that realistically, the only areas in the UK that might be able to support them would be north of the Great Glen, Affric and northwards.  I understand that they do best in mixed and broken woodland, so their territory might be quite limited.