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I think our system [with all its faults] is better than the Russian mafia state. Putin knows through experience that he can murder whomever, wherever with impunity. That any man has become as rich and as powerful that he commands an entire country by himself is clearly a danger to the collective "us" of the rest of the world.
Explain Iraq then. And Afghanistan for that matter.
1: Iraq invaded Kuwait in Gulf War 1. George W felt he had unfinished business. Iraq war essentially 2nd part of the Gulf War.
2: 9/11. Taliban refused to give up Bin Laden & therefore appeared to be providing a stable base for further attacks.
Neither, I grant you were directly caused by state vs state attacks , but they were pretty much the result of an act of war(/terrorism)
We absolutely should, but there’s a big difference between that and the proactive interference in a foreign state’s affairs because we think our system is better and assume that the people in those foreign states want the same as us.
I thought we were acting in support of people in a foreign state who do want the same as us.
I think our system [with all its faults] is better than the Russian mafia state.
So do I, doesn't mean we can impose it on others though without expecting some comeback. As this thread has proven once again the good vs evil interpretation of geopolitics is pretty silly. All this virtue signalling about how evil Putin is and all the childish sabre rattling is pointless. Putin is there, he's not going away, and he's not going to roll over just because some western liberals make a fuss.
I thought we were acting in support of people in a foreign state who do want the same as us.
Some of them do, some don't, and many just want to live in peace and get on with their lives without being pawns in somoeone else's geopolitical battle.
Iraq war essentially 2nd part of the Gulf War.
Nonsense. The Iraq war was a war of aggression perpetrated by western governments to secure oil supplies and benefit from the economic exploitation of a ravaged country/region. Putin's probably a bit envious and admiring of Bush and Blair's record for death and destruction.
@dazh you act like there isn't significant opposition to Putin in Russia. That there isn't significant support for democracy. That this is somehow us imposing our will on the Russian people. Like somehow we're the bad guys here?
Gimme a break.
Putin should have been in The Sopranos.
Navalny is the latest in a long line of Putin critics who met an early death
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/16/europe/putin-critics-dead-alexey-navalny-intl-cmd/index.html
So do I, doesn’t mean we can impose it on others though without expecting some comeback. As this thread has proven once again the good vs evil interpretation of geopolitics is pretty silly. All this virtue signalling about how evil Putin is and all the childish sabre rattling is pointless. Putin is there, he’s not going away, and he’s not going to roll over just because some western liberals make a fuss.
That's a very simplistic view of how the world works. Western governments' positions with regards to Putin directly affect how they are viewed elsewhere in the world, and that affects their ability to influence politics and trade in those places. And of course those positions are very much influenced by how Putin is portrayed in local media.
What does that even mean
it means Daz, that a far right dictator is stabilising his grip on a state with massive energy and resource reserves, a huge pile of nuclear weapons, a formidable navy and intelligence service and is seeking to hoover up more globally significant strategic resources in the shape of Ukraine’s steel and grain. He’s doing this by murdering people who disagree with him in his own country and ours and throwing the carcasses of his nations youth on a pyre in the Donbas. But yeah, I’m just being silly.
a formidable navy
I think that bit is perhaps questionable.
Russian Federation is currently producing more new ships than they are losing out of their shipyards. Part of an ongoing re-armament programme. Even though they cant get them into the Black Sea at the moment because the bosphorus strait restrictions.
We digress, I find some of the posts that its OK to murder your political opposition repeatedly or the populations of foreign sovereign state countries and we shouldn't impose our values to question a batshit, nuclear equipped, murdering Dictator and his bunch of mafia Oligarchs, because, because, er the British Empire really bonkers. Its just no different to Tucker Carlson. A bit sad really.
As soon as he returned to Russia from Germany after recovery form poisoining
Never understood why he voluntarily returned.
Basically signed his death certificate when he did.
Already discussed - a level of bravery you or I will never know.
Well Daz wins the prize for today’s most obvious display of whataboutery
All depends on which side of the fence you want to stand on to claim whataboutery. Plenty of other conflicts going on currently, some far far more horrific than others. But if those cannot be mentioned or talked about here then they effectively still fall into that category.
To the west Putin is the latest bad guy, but in his own country he is seen as the patriot. And we have plenty of things done by western 'patriots' that are just as bad. In most of these trying to claim whataboutery is is just a tactic to stifling any debate.
War is evil. But it can never be a case of their war is evil and ours(whatever that may be across time) is not.
Don't engage me on this. Im not responsible for the actions of a foreign country, and neither is Dazh.
But did he want to be seen to be the one to kill him? Obviously not, hence the slow ‘he’s fallen ill’ nonsense over the past year rather than just putting a bullet in his head.
It’s the established Russian principle of ‘plausible deniability’, the standard FSB playbook that Putin, as head of the KGB/FSB helped refine over the years. It’s allowing those he sees as threats a nice long leash, and seeming freedom, even in other nations then using his proxies to assassinate them, or attempt to - see the fiasco in Salisbury as an example. State developed radioactive isotopes, neurotoxins developed as weapons, murder through being pushed down stairs or out of windows…
Putin knows we know he’s responsible, but that’s part of the game he’s playing, he can just deny it, basically saying ‘prove it, I dare you’.
He’s doing this by murdering people who disagree with him in his own country
As opposed to murdering people in foreign countries. Honestly the mental gymnastics you guys exercise to maintain your simplistic good vs evil view of the world is quite incredible.
Right now not far from supposed civilised western states tens of thousands of kids and innocent people are being slaughtered and starved by a far right government which is propped up by money and weapons supplied by us and other western countries and you dare to complain and claim the moral high ground about what Putin does?
News flash. We are no different.
@dazh Tenuous usage of the words 'we' and 'you guys'...
Just who the hell do you think you are? and who are you referring to?
As far as I can read, the only person seemingly justifying political assassination, or war of shit type, is Dazh (and dyna-ti).
I can't see any apologists for western offensives, and unless you've a very short memory I'd wager that the vast weight of opinion on here when it comes to the likes of Iraq etc is very much not in favour of it. You seem to think we're all raging warmongers, while at the same time backing Putin's right to assassinate his political rivals 🤦
Once again, though, do you think Putin is justified, and morally right, to assassinate his political rivals? Seems to be the case.
RIP Navalny.
What a brave fella - he probably knew this was the end game for the last 10-15 years.
Agree with the comment above - we (and the US) need to double down on our support for Ukraine. Hopefully Trump's many court cases prevents him from becoming a Putin stooge for the next 4-5 years.
do you think Putin is justified, and morally right, to assassinate his political rivals?
Of course not. The only thing I’ve said about Navalny was that his death was completely unnecessary. 🤷♂️
The only thing I’ve said about Navalny was that his death was completely unnecessary.
Exactly! And true of all murders! The murderer didn't have to do it - that's why we have a low opinion of them.
As far as I can read, the only person seemingly justifying political assassination, or war of shit type, is Dazh (and dyna-ti).
Maybe you should go back to school mate, as nobody said that.
we (and the US) need to double down on our support for Ukraine.
Why? What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides? It's making arms companies lots of money that for sure, and it's enabling politicians across Europe to stroke their egos and act like big men, but I see few other benefits.
Latest update regarding Navalny says that Novichok was used, so clearly a State sanctioned assassination on behalf of Putin. No ifs or buts. As regards what’s happening in Palestine, that’s State-sanctioned ethnic cleansing being carried out on the instructions of the Prime Minister.
This is in no way an anti-Semitic statement, these actions are being sanctioned by one man, in the same way that ethnic cleansing is being carried out in Ukraine, sanctioned by Putin, who’s made it abundantly clear what he thinks of Ukrainians right from the start.
You make it sound so simple daz.... you should drop the UN an email including your CV. With your abundant grasp of politics and international relations, we'd have a peaceful world sorted in no time.
Latest update regarding Navalny says that Novichok was used, so clearly a State sanctioned assassination on behalf of Putin. No ifs or buts. As regards what’s happening in Palestine, that’s State-sanctioned ethnic cleansing being carried out on the instructions of the Prime Minister.
This is in no way an anti-Semitic statement, these actions are being sanctioned by one man, in the same way that ethnic cleansing is being carried out in Ukraine, sanctioned by Putin, who’s made it abundantly clear what he thinks of Ukrainians right from the start.
Very well stated
Why? What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides? It’s making arms companies lots of money that for sure, and it’s enabling politicians across Europe to stroke their egos and act like big men, but I see few other benefits.
Aye. Sounds great sat in your tankie armchair. Now see how that comment goes down in Romania, Poland, the Baltic states, Finland, Sweden and the other countries bordering Russia. Particularly the former eastern bloc countries which have fond memories of Russian occupation. Ask yourself why these countries are donating the highest proportion of their GDP out of any countries to Ukraine? And you criticise others for imposing their values on other countries lols
There are no benefits to the war in Ukraine, however the cost of doing nothing will be much higher. See Syria, Chechnya, Georgia, Wagner in Africa, Transinistra, Serbia, support for Iran and North Korea.
Also think about why Sweden is abandoning 200 years of neutrality to join NATO; that's because Russia, specifically Putin, has shown that he can and will invade neighbouring countries on a whim. People here (Sweden) are not keen on going into that fight alone and so NATO was an obvious choice. A shame Erdogan and Orban had to extract their pound of flesh during the process, but certainly not surprising given their personal politics.
As for Navalny, oh, he knew. As soon as he got in the plane after recovering from the first round of poisoning, he knew for certain he was going to die in prison and likely not of old age. Maybe there was a strand of narcism in there and wanting to be a matyr, but it takes more stones than I think almost everyone here has to make a decision like that, purely hoping that you can inspire a population to make a change.
What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides?
Bless your simple naive soul, sweet summer child.
Being opposed to wars or actions doesn’t make you a Putin apologist, but failing to understand that allowing bullies to get away with it - whether it's stealing your lunch money or invading a nation and slaughtering it's people - only emboldens them to do more, until it suddenly, urgently becomes our problem after all. That applies to all countries, not just Russia, and wr need to learn from the lessons of our own dark history of empire, not use it as an excuse to not get involved.
Awful things have been done by all countries in all wars. I am horrified by the hypocrisy western governments are showing between the conflict in Ukraine and The Conflict That Must Be Named.
But our governments ignoring abuses in Russia - has led to Putin feeling confident enough to attack sovereign nations and/or ethnically cleanse them, and now kill his last main opposition leader.
failing to understand that allowing bullies to get away with it – whether it’s stealing your lunch money or invading a nation and slaughtering it’s people – only emboldens them to do more
So what do we do about it then? Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
So what do we do about it then? Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
You'd hope we'd have learnt from those lessons.
If I was clever enough to know the answers, I wouldn't waste my evenings speculating on the Interweb, but my ill-informed opinion, which is all it is would suggest:
We support Ukraine to push his forces back beyond Ukraines recognised borders. However much that costs us, it will be cheaper than having him go through Ukraine, and then Poland, then the Baltics. It may also serve as a warning to other nationalist sabre rattling regimes to stick within the rule of law.
We can support genuine democratic opposition/reform to Putin in Russia, though again, our track record at that kind of thing is pretty poor.
We can also push for greater power to the international structures that are meant to stop states invading like this - do away with UN vetos, give the UN, or whatever other body may be better, some teeth to deal with individuals who break international law.
So what do we do about it then? Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
We support Ukraine to push his forces back beyond Ukraines recognised borders. However much that costs us, it will be cheaper than having him go through Ukraine, and then Poland, then the Baltics. It may also serve as a warning to other nationalist sabre rattling regimes to stick within the rule of law.
We can support genuine democratic opposition/reform to Putin in Russia, though again, our track record at that kind of thing is pretty poor.
We can also push for greater power to the international structures that are meant to stop states invading like this – do away with UN vetos, give the UN, or whatever other body may be better, some teeth to deal with individuals who break international law.
Also, continuing to repudiate Putin’s claim to Ukrainian territory by using corrupted history regarding the Kievan Rus, and attempting to turn himself into the modern Peter The Great, instead of the inadequate little dictator he actually is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Ru s'
Because we’re sure as shit not doing another Iraq or Afghanistan in Russia.
We haven't done Africa for a long time. Largest world reserves of Cobalt.
Used in the cathodes of lithium ion batteries. Just as well we don't use that type of technology in anything.
Oh hang on... 😕
Why? What purpose is the war in Ukraine serving other than the pointless waste of the lives of soldiers on both sides? It’s making arms companies lots of money that for sure, and it’s enabling politicians across Europe to stroke their egos and act like big men, but I see few other benefits.
Some good answers ^^ IMHO
Moscow is in Europe so I guess that you include President Putin in that statement, which isn't a problem because he is the protagonist.
I don't see many other politicians stroking their egos, but many are getting a massive reality check of their preparedness for war and some are acting like men (and it is the men) who cannot make a decision because they'd rather it all went away.
Arms companies are going to be making money, but there will have to be a massive investment and expansion in their capabilities in Europe, all brought about by Russia's illegal and unjustified invasion. The investment will increase growth and productive capacity in economies damaged by Russia's actions.
Investment will have to be made in restoring Ukraine; it's people, memories, historical buildings and treasures can never be restored fully
We haven’t done Africa for a long time. Largest world reserves of Cobalt.
No need, Russia's providing its special brand of stability in the region https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/02/28/russia-s-growing-footprint-in-africa-s-sahel-region-pub-89135
Eastern European mercs are involved in the DRC (74% world cobalt reserves) where the Government is believed to have hired the Russian state-funded Wagner Group, as have Mali and the CAR
.
@timba beat me to it re Wagner in Africa (now openly controlled by the Russian state)
Also Russia has supported and built close ties with Iran. The Shahad drones were bought with $2billion in gold bullion (!). This relationship has emboldened Iran to spread its influence and destabilise the middle east even further. One aspect of this was the training of Hammas fighters and encouragement to commit the horrendous atrocities on 7th October and the even more horrendous atrocities in Gaza at the moment. The only winner from that is Iran. Backed by Russia.
Navalny sadly was the only opposition figure of note
No need, Russia’s providing its special brand of stability in the region
Perfect, we can save the poor Africans from the Dutch Russians
We support Ukraine to push his forces back beyond Ukraines recognised borders. However much that costs us, it will be cheaper than having him go through Ukraine, and then Poland, then the Baltics. It may also serve as a warning to other nationalist sabre rattling regimes to stick within the rule of law.
Pretty sure that ship has already sailed, the Donbas is not going back to Ukraine as long as the Ukrainians are the only ones fighting for it. So then the only other alternative is for Western troops to do it. Are you prepared for a full on hot war with Russia and all the consequences that will derive from that? And you really think Iran, China and others will be scared of the west after seeing the clusterf*** in Ukraine? They'll be pissing themselves at how weak and incompetent the west is.
We can support genuine democratic opposition/reform to Putin in Russia, though again, our track record at that kind of thing is pretty poor.
Yes great, lets do more meddling and interference which got us into this mess in the first place. Like you say, the West's track record of exporting 'democracy' has been a catastrophic failure wherever they've tried it, and you thing we should do more?!
I don't think I'm the naive one here.
…it’s enabling politicians across Europe to stroke their egos and act like big men, but I see few other benefits
European governments don’t want to be spending more on defence, they don’t want their funds going to Ukraine during a downturn… they have absolutely zero choice. The decision has been made for them by Putin. There are still some “Russia will not try and expand its empire westwards through military force” people who can’t see the obvious in front of them… but they are the few who consider that it is Western European leaders wanting and willing military build up… everyone else can see that they don’t want it, but they have little choice.
Hang on, apologies Dazh, I went off on one there… want it or not, some will absolutely try and benefit from it with a bit of “acting like a big man” for political gain and adding to their own myth making, you’re spot on there.
Access to the body for the family is taking a while…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/19/alexei-navalny-yulia-body-russia/
And you really think Iran, China and others will be scared of the west after seeing the clusterf*** in Ukraine? They’ll be pissing themselves at how weak and incompetent the west is.
On the one hand that is a valid point, but on another they must be wondering if an allegience with Russia has actually been worth anything given that Russia has proven itself to be largely ineffective against a much weaker neighbour, and the west has managed to make what should have been a month long walk over last 2 years without actually putting themselves directly in harms way...