Given the primary issues the world as a whole has to deal with at the moment, I struggle to understand the need to create further division across all fronts and that certain politicians are happy to roll out "We represent the voice of the X people!". They patently don't.
I was born in the UK, albeit north of Gretna > Berwick map line.
Whilst I can understand the 'be proud of and celebrate different cultures' to an extent, it strikes me that some of the rhetoric deployed is no different from that used by certain nasties from history to create an enemy, division and ultimately embark on an ill-defined path which is likely to make things worse for the population these people claim to represent. 'We were persecuted by them' in some distant past is the primary motivator. I sense things are never so simple and rather than looking back, sit down, work together and look forward for a collaborative better good for all.
Am I missing something?
It is an odd thing. I have no idea of why people are proud of where they were born. Its not like they had any say in the matter.
I like this quote
Nationalism teaches you take pride in things you haven't done & hate people you've never met.
It's tribal, surely, can be the only explanation for the existence of the Barmy Army....
I think we just evolved to be a bit tribal, used to be handy when we were hunting mammoths on the steppes, not so handy now.
It's just human nature to have an 'us' and 'them'
Beats me.
Maybe it's the only thing some people can brag about when they either lack the self-worth to be proud of their individual achievements or lack the individuality and experience to be objective about a place, area, country.
Being proud of an area you associate with is understandable if you can articulate it's merits, otherwise it just smells of insecurity.
Its a despearate need to be part of something by people who have nothing of note going on for themselves.
See also fat people who havent run since school PE talking about their chosen football team using the first person plural.
If you're a politician, finding the thing that everyone who is eligible to vote for you has in common is quite an obvious tactic, and gives them a common "enemy" to unite against.
These attitudes tend to come from people who claim not to be nationalists.
But when you dig down, they are. It's just that they're British nationalists.
Unless you actively support the abolition of all nation-states - you are a nationalist of some description.
On the basis of Carlin's quote you can have pride in your nationality if you are an immigrant. 🙂
So only people of foreign origin can be pround to be British. Seems fair enough.
Are you allowed to be ashamed of your nationality even if it was just an accident of birth?
As for current national squables, some of them have current basis that goes beyond any historical grudges.
Maybe all the STW Scottish Nationalists can explain? I'm told its the good sort.
No chance of that for sure.
Maybe all the STW Scottish Nationalists can explain?
The Scots (and Welsh and NI) have a nearly unique situation where they get to be British when it suits and Scottish when it suits.
I can't really think of another example from around the globe.
Catalans ?
Illustrious MP Liz truss sad the other day that nationalism and popluism is abhorent, but we wouldn't share our vaccines.
Answeres on a postcard?
Maybe all the STW Scottish Nationalists can explain? I’m told its the good sort
Been done, go away and argue wi your reflection
Maybe all the STW Scottish Nationalists can explain? I’m told its the good sort.
Remember, not all folk who wish for Scots independence are nationalists, there are many reasons that people wish to be separated from rUK.
Answeres on a postcard?
She's just admitting that Tories are abhorrent. It's the start of her conversion to a decent human being
Catalans ?
While they must accept that most of the rest of the world probably lumps them as Spanish I dont think that they jump into waving the bandera de espana and being a proud spaniard in the way that some scottish can do on occasion.
While typing this I have come up with Tazmania as a counter example.
Remember, not all folk who wish for Scots independence are nationalists, there are many reasons that people wish to be separated from rUK.
I think patriotism is a better word to use if you're talking about people being proud of a country. Civic nationalism is nationalism.
Ayjaydoubleyou. Not a nationalist point, but in response to your comment, English people have the luxury of claiming England victories as English, then topping up with any victories from other nations as British, but writing off their losses as whatever nation they represent (Scot Murray crashes out of Wimbledon in first round/finally Britain has another Wimbledon Champion etc) 😉
It is an odd thing. I have no idea of why people are proud of where they were born. Its not like they had any say in the matter.
Would you say the same about being proud of your family? Or friends?
Surely the scottish do the same - its only the size of the english population compared to that of the other nations that makes it different though?
I agree, Murray is a top example of this.
In the world of sport it is a bit inconsistent which events we enter as GB and which as individual nations.
Would you say the same about being proud of your family? Or friends?
I think people have pride in things their friends and relatives are, or do, or have done, rather than just because they're a friend or relative.
Agree with pondo (from a Scottish independence supporting English person living in the West Midlands)
Why pick on nationalism? We are defined by many groups. Religion, sex, colour, political affiliations the list is endless. There is no issue with it and all adds to the rich tapestry of life. It would be boring and no better if we were all one amorphous body of people with no diversity. The things I think of regarding nationalism are the things that bind other nations together, the things that have been achieved when groups from diverse backgrounds work together, each adding their own unique qualities
And besides its totally normal to fee pride for your nation or anything else you've had no choice in being a part of, because you become part of it...buy into its values and principles, engage within it and carry it on forward so its ready for another generation of people. Just like a football supporter is proud of their team and the tiny contribution they make supporting them and most football supporters don't choose their team, their support of their team is usually bestowed upon them from their parents.
The problem comes when people look at groups and tar everyone within that group with the same brush and that is fundamentally what has gone rotten in our politics these days. Walk down the street holding aloft a St Georges Cross and the majority of people are likely to think you're a racist thug. Walk down the same street holdint up a Welsh flag to Cross of St Andrews and they'll look upon you differently.
Right wing Nationalism is gloating over what your country never was
Left wing nationalism is being excited by what it could be
Murray crashes out of Wimbledon in first round/finally Britain has another Wimbledon Champion etc) 😉
This cropped up in a debate with a friend (keen Scottish nationalist) a few years ago. I was bored one evening and did a (not exactly scientific I admit) of research by looking where Andy Murray's name came up on the BBC website, both for victories and defeats. What I found was that there was absolutely no correlation between him being described as Scottish or British in relation to victories or defeats. It was pretty much random.
However you can be sure that urban myth will continue for a long while yet as it suits certain viewpoints.
I think people have pride in things their friends and relatives are, or do, or have done, rather than just because they’re a friend or relative.
I don't see that as any different than what is being called nationalism on this thread. I'm not proud of my next-door neighbour because he just happens to be born in the same country as me, but I might be proud of what people in my country have done. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the premise of the OP.
It just makes you feel really free and at one with the world. Sun on your back, wind in your hair etc.
IGMC
Amazing how this developed to discuss Scottish Nationalism, predictably...
However you can be sure that urban myth will continue for a long while yet as it suits certain viewpoints.
It's a bit of fun, I don't think anyone of sane mind takes it in any way seriously...
Amazing how this developed to discuss Scottish Nationalism, predictably…
The reason for that is that most nationalism is seen by most people outside right-wing circles as being a bad thing. Scottish Nationalism, for some reason isn’t.
I can’t really think of another example from around the globe.
This English learn so little about what goes on “around the globe”, and just how normal it is to be of “many” tribes… not just living by one single flag, at the exclusion of all other identity. Which is odd, as we encouraged a lot of that useful divided loyalty when we had an empire… having studied the Roman approach.
Maybe all the STW Scottish Nationalists can explain? I’m told its the good sort.
Maybe if the English weren't so ****ing racist there wouldn't be any need for Scottish Nationalists?
We wouldn't have anything to get away from.
Edit:
I can't be bothered coming back to this thread so I'm going to give your responses to that now and then my answers:
'But we're not all racist. I'm certainly not racist.'
That's most likely true. However, you voted to leave the EU off the back of racism. The current government is a lobotomised version of UKIP. The opposition just done a u-turn on Freedom of Movement because they are well aware that suggesting letting foreigners into the country is electoral suicide.
Scotland will hopefully go back to being a normal country, NI might well decide borders aren't worth it, and the Welsh will do whatever it is the Welsh do.
**** off with your trolling when your country's politics has been based on racism for the last five years.
It’s a bit of fun, I don’t think anyone of sane mind takes it in any way seriously…
True in the most part, but I have met a few people who genuinely believe it; helps confirm their victim narrative.
imnotverygood
Full Member
Scottish Nationalism, for some reason isn’t.
It's cause the Brit nationalists are/were undisputed bastards. So by default Scottish nationalism > British nationalism. 😆
A bit of national pride and an understanding of your history is a good thing
Being a jingoistic throbber isn't
The reason for that is that most nationalism is seen by most people outside right-wing circles as being a bad thing. Scottish Nationalism, for some reason isn’t.
Possibly, but is that down to the fact the only people in England who ever wave a flag are rule britannia type farkwits? Just because that happens in your own country, doesn't mean everyone is the same.
Edit - or better put by @seosamh77 🙂
Maybe if the English weren’t so **** racist there wouldn’t be any need for Scottish Nationalists?
"The English" What all of them? Ignorant, offensive othering and stereotyping. Well done you.
What you have written there is the very definition of what you claim to despise. Rank hypocracy.
This English learn so little about what goes on “around the globe”,
is that all english people... 😉
what country's education system should we be following to redress this?
We are defined by many groups. Religion, sex, colour, political affiliations the list is endless
you can find most or all of these in the regions on pretty much all of India's borders. Thats probably (almost certainly) the fault of the British Empire in the 19th century. THe actions of which I feel neither pride nor responsibilty for.
“The English” What all of them? Ignorant, offensive othering and stereotyping. Well done you.
See my edit. Yes, well done me. I don't live in a country that voted for Brexit to keep the darkies out and can't even have the opposition think about supporting FoM.
In fact, well done you for living in a country with such a well defined policy towards foreigners.
“The English” What all of them?
No, just enough of them to make UK government policy pro actively anti immigrant. Not anti immigration, but anti immigrant. You can come here, as long as you want to be reminded repeatedly that you are second class and prepared to pay, and keep paying, to stay.
Nationalism is driving UK policy, based on English votes. It’s a bit rich to wonder why so many people in Scotland would rather shift policy making to the politicians they elect, rather than keep it with those they do not.
Bruce,
If you're suggesting Scotland is less racist than England you are stupid. Sorry if that sounds rude but its the best I can do.
Whilst nationalism and racism aren't mutually exclusive they are never the less, seperate things with regards Scotish / English nationalism.
I'm not going to even try to engage with that hate filled bile. You know nothing about me. Have a nice day.
Scotland is less racist than England. And less xenophobic. Happy to be called stupid.
If you’re suggesting Scotland is less racist than England you are stupid. Sorry if that sounds rude but its the best I can do.
No, I'm well aware that Scotland also has problems with racism.
The difference is that Scotland isn't so committed to their racism that they are prepared to commit economic suicide to achieve their racist ambitions.
Who knows, maybe Scots are just as racist as the English but we're too tight to do anything about it.
Getting a bit off track but calling "the English" racist really isn't on and is racist. There is a vocal minority but England is the chosen home for proportionally far more foreign people than any other home nation, and more than the European average. There are some racists but it is demonstrably not a racist nation.
It’s tribal
That
“The English” What all of them? Ignorant, offensive othering and stereotyping. Well done you.
Ignorant, offensive othering and stereotyping is OK on this forum. Well, the mods seem to think so anyway.
I’m not going to even try to engage with that hate filled bile. You know nothing about me. Have a nice day.
'Oooh, I'm too high minded to engage in debate after deciding to jump in on a thread that calls the majority of the Scottish population bigots.
I'm just going to have a quick snipe and then flounce off.'
And here we go… as an English man living in England I’m happy to report that the people I know aren’t racist. But when it comes to UK politics, anti immigrant feeling in England has driven the policy of subsequent UK governments. So, I can no longer pretend that the people I know are representative of the English in England, sadly. It’s a generalism, but UK politics centres around the desire amongst English voters to stick it to the non-English… and more and more people in Scotland are getting that message. It’s depressing, but pretending it isn’t true is pointless. As the Labour Party have admitted as they now try to align with the Conservatives on immigration to stand a chance of winning more English seats.
Getting a bit off track but calling “the English” racist really isn’t on and is racist. There is a vocal minority but England is the chosen home for proportionally far more foreign people than any other home nation, and more than the European average. There are some racists but it is demonstrably not a racist nation.
Agreed, a bit like referring to all Scots Nationalists in a similar tone, when you have no idea why someone wishes to have more of a say in their own nations affairs.
Getting a bit off track but calling “the English” racist really isn’t on and is racist. There is a vocal minority but England is the chosen home for proportionally far more foreign people than any other home nation, and more than the European average. There are some racists but it is demonstrably not a racist nation.
So you don't agree the Brexit vote was motivated by racism.
You don't agree the current government is racist?
You don't realise that the opposition just u-turned on FoM because they know that, because of the inherent racism, pursuing a policy of FoM is electoral suicide?
Read a newspaper, will you.
If you’re suggesting Scotland is less racist than England you are stupid
I suspect you have no evidence to support this assertion, just deflecting. My own experience as someone who moved to Glasgow as a young schoolboy with a Home Counties accent was the only concern was "Whit fitba team d'you support?" No one bothered about me being English.
My grandparents moved form Yorkshire to Glasgow in the 1940s and never left.
Go back further in my family history of mixed African heritage moving to Glasgow in the 1920s, again it wasn't a big issue.
If you want to discuss institutionalised English racism, start with Marcus Rashford and go backwards. I lived and worked in England for 33 years, an ex-colleague works in Whitehall addressing diversity and despairs.
I love the fact that someone starts a thread aimed at calling the majority of the Scottish population bigots and then people get all precious when someone comes along and tells them that actually, we didn't vote for all the bigoted shit that has happened over the last five years.
You guys did.
The Scots (and Welsh and NI) have a nearly unique situation where they get to be British when it suits and Scottish when it suits.
I can’t really think of another example from around the globe.
The English? 😉
It's all just playing with identity politics really.
"Nationalism" is a byword for tribalism and defining yourself by those you share the most in common with. Nationalism is easily conflated with a having concern for "the national interest" but they are not the same thing at all.
Nationalists seek to define 'their group' those they find acceptable and by extension 'everyone else'. They tend to be big fans of othering; projecting malicious intent and blindly malign motives onto those 'other' groups which they don't share a common identity with.
You'll often find there's a relatively narrow definition of "National identity" and "National values" and it's seldom very inclusive or progressive and is never as simple as just holding the same citizenship...
But it's also an easy, comfortable little rut for people to fall into, it offers a sense of community and belonging, a cause and even sense of righteousness if an individual is missing some those things. Nationalism often prays on people's social and political disenfranchisement and their sense of social/economic or political powerlessness and weaves the illusion that these things can be redressed through a more extreme counter movement.
"Nationalist" are always knocking about at some level, but it takes the right set of circumstances for them to gain a following and with it some influence. Enough people ned to feel disconnected from influence and opportunity...
As a case in point, back in 2016 about 52% of the British voting age public felt that way, now look at us...
kelvin
Full Member
Scotland is less racist than England. And less xenophobic. Happy to be called stupid.
Hiya stupid! :wave: 😆
England is the chosen home for proportionally far more foreign people than any other home nation
Australia, USA, !
A quick fact check of European countries says Holland has a higher proportion of immigrants than the UK. UK 16.4% Holland 19.4%