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Why are you (OP) “categorically” not a victim, when you describe as such other people who have the same experience?
Because being a victim is a state of mind and it's not my state of mind; the experience was horrible but I still today don't feel like I'm a victim because of that any more than I feel that what happened to me in primary school makes me a victim. It happened, it was horrible but it didn't kill me and I learned something very important from it. This might sound very odd but I actually feel I learned a lot from the experience even if I rather it hadn't happened.
Jimjam complaining about JY sticking his oar in, by sticking his oar in…
I get where JimJam is coming from and am obviously sympathetic to it; my own position on this subject is very well documented but hopefully it is now more apparent that when I say anything that looks or sounds a bit MRA, it's not because I want to denude women's rights or empowerment, it is entirely because I feel strongly that there are things that affect men because they are men and we don't take them seriously enough as a society.
Junky much as we've had extreme disagreements in the past I still would value your engagement and respect what you have to say. I think you've been incredibly gracious in your response here but would encourage you to speak up.
Cougar
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</div>men’s rights is a right wing topic
“Men’s rights activists” are generally right-wing nutjobs who are a threat to their own swiveleyesation. People who don’t understand the difference between equality and equity. But that’s got the square root of **** all to do with anything on this thread.
Thanks for reinforcing my point for me.
[quoteSeems hyperbolic but that’s the new reality we live in.
It might be the reality you live in but it’s a fiction.
I obviously meant political reality/current affairs culture but thanks for deliberately conflating that and turning it into an ad-hom. I see my point was well made, perhaps you genuinely were surprised by Junkyard being Junkyard. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
A sizeable portion of that 85% will also themselves be perpetrators of DV. This can be lost in the statistics as they are not as good at inflicting injuries as their (mostly) male partners. When such an incident occurs it is normally marked as the woman being the victim, not both.
Source please and evidence- I assume you have seen some research you can link to
One factual point if i may-
Jordan Petterson is mental because he links feminism to Marxism? Words to that effect.
I said anyone who thinks like this is a loon[ colloquial sense not a diagnosis] . Despite the number of personal attacks on me no one chose to defend this, including you, as an accurate account of reality.Do you want to this time or just ad hom me again?
I will never use words I hate, like the trendy and artificially constructed words "zhe" and "zher." These words are at the vanguard of a post-modern, radical leftist ideology that I detest, and which is, in my professional opinion, frighteningly similar to the Marxist doctrines that killed at least 100 million people in the 20th century.I have been studying authoritarianism on the right and the left for 35 years. I wrote a book, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief, on the topic, which explores how ideologies hijack language and belief. As a result of my studies, I have come to believe that Marxism is a murderous ideology. I believe its practitioners in modern universities should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to promote such vicious, untenable and anti-human ideas, and for indoctrinating their students with these beliefs. I am therefore not going to mouth Marxist words. That would make me a puppet of the radical left, and that is not going to happen. Period.[69
whatever the transgender movement is [ IMHO an attempt to get people to be treated with respect and dignity] is not a radical marxist ideology and you are not a puppet if you call someone by their preferred term. If you think it is you dont have the greatest perspective as your radical right wing political view clouds your ability to see reality. No one defended what he said but plenty attacked me for simply quoting him- it is the STW way- even on another thread days after.
broken irony meter picture goes here.thanks for deliberately conflating that and turning it into an ad-hom
That is a lie my post made four factual points and none of them were political, any of which you could have chosen to address rather than get personal, at all. I have no idea how it could be seen as bullying. Good job I did not do what you did eh you would be apoplectic with rage. So many on here do what they are complaining aboutThe fact that he couldn’t resist sticking his political oar in, to contradict, belittle and provoke even on a thread about such a personal experience shows that there’s no depths to which he won’t sink in order to attack or bully people who he sees as his “enemy” politically.
FFS let it go man let it go.
thanks but even when leaving some seem determined to discuss me rather than your important subject so apart from this defence and a Mleh I think its best if i dont feed jim jam. I doubt that will stop him critiquing me personally- probably still due to my flaws and not his 😉I think you’ve been incredibly gracious in your response here but would encourage you to speak up.
FWIW GT i see you as on some sort of very public route to "recovery" as you explain the reasons for your views publicly. I think its very brave of you to do so and positive that men can discuss emotional topics openly. Man hugs all round as i dont agree with you but i do respect you.
Well done mate. Brave post.
Once again this place brings out the best in people.
Man hugs all round as i dont agree with you but i do respect you.
I appreciate that thank you.
I am however convinced that you and I will agree on far more than we disagree on. Really I do.
Courtwas a joke despite repeated reports from professionals saying she was intentionally poisening the kids against me she still gets them and i don’t see them, i have to hope that as they grow up they’lll see her true colours.
And that is why I suspect a lot of people put up with situations that otherwise they wouldn't dream of.
Perhaps there needs to be a #mentoo campaign – quite often abuses of men goes unreported.
When such an incident occurs it is normally marked as the woman being the victim, not both.
I've no idea if this is true, but it sounds plausible to me because of this: I had a psycho-girlfriend girlfriend for a while at Uni. One one occasion she full on attacked me in a jealous rage. During the encounter I did nothing except try to hold her arms to stop her hitting me. At the end of the encounter I had some very minor finger nail scratches and a bruise on my arm. In contrast, she had a massive black eye where she'd bashed her eye socket on my skull.
As it happened some of her friends and mine were present to witness the whole thing so there was no dispute over what happened. If there hadn't been and the Police had been involved I'd guess they would assume I was the aggressor. I've no idea if it gets noted down as such, but I'd guess it sometimes could, otherwise every wife beater could just claim to be the victim who just happened to come off better in the encounter.
Because being a victim is a state of mind and it’s not my state of mind
I knew what you were implying. Being a victim is not a state of mind; feeling victimised is. You already know this as you'll comfortably refer to as victims people who have been through something similar. You can't change the fact that you have been a victim of something, that you allowed something to happen to you and/or that you were powerless. Acknowledging and metabolising that is a significant part of the healing process, and it seems from most of your posting history that you've missed it out. You're saying the words you think you should be saying - "I am not a victim" - but your expressions/actions do not agree. I wonder if you've forgiven yourself.
I've said this before - ironically, you laughed at it and had it deleted - but you have to be very, very careful when you choose to go down such an extroverted, egoistic route to some sense of recovery, using others to fight your way to or defend conclusions - it's like people who hang around in shopping areas to convince people that they need Jesus. I sincerely wish that you make it to a place where you feel your history is resolved, just don't forget that you have a responsibilty to others, and indeed yourself, to arrive there alone.
This might sound very odd but I actually feel I learned a lot from the experience even if I rather it hadn’t happened.
Seriously? It would only sound odd if I'd never experienced anything in my entire life and was also completely unaware of even the concept of experience.
You already know this as you’ll comfortably refer to as victims people who have been through something similar.
Yes fair point but I do that out of respect for not knowing how they feel about it; I don't want to deny the right to feel like you're a victim or be regarded as such just because I don't feel it applies to me (or want to be seen that way).
There's something in the (male) psyche though that almost certainly resists the title anyway and that's something we should talk about; my reluctance to see myself as a victim is tied up in many things; the belief that it's not OK to be male and a victim, the sense that being a victim is associated with being helpless and that's not compatible with masculinity, that it's associated with being weak for the same reason, that I lerned at a very young age to be self sufficient, self reliant etc, again these are likely to be masculine traits. It's all important to discuss so this isn't a polemic, this is just important debate.
but you have to be very, very careful when you choose to go down such an extroverted, egoistic route to some sense of recovery,
Well I'm not doing it for that reason but that's OK because of course it might look like that. I'm saying these things because other people aren't and look at the response on this thread; this will be just a fraction of the stories just like this that aren't getting told. There is a massive untold problem out there and I'm sick to the back teeth of being told by people that it isn't a problem (which does happen). This personal confession is also very cathartic though.
it’s like people who hang around in shopping areas to convince people that they need Jesus.
I might have read your suggestion wrong so forgive me if I did but it sounds like you're suggseting that what I am doing is attention seeking and that's not usually a good thing. I'm sure you're not saying that though so I must have misunderstood you.
Nevertheless, isn't this public expression of our experiences and the wrongs we've been subject to precisely what's happening right now with things like the #metoo campaign; and isn't that an important process?
I said anyone who thinks like this is a loon[ colloquial sense not a diagnosis] . Despite the number of personal attacks on me no one chose to defend this, including you, as an accurate account of reality.Do you want to this time or just ad hom me again?
You continually refer to being insulted where no insult is given while you infer that someone else is a lunatic. You've posted the same quote (and your assessment) at least five times by my count, and despite the fact that every time you do, you are reminded that Petterson has spoken at great length making the correlation and you can just watch some videos or read some of his words to find an explanation but you just continue to ignore this and re-post the same thing. Ignoring replies you don't want to hear isn't the same as not getting a reply.
If you think it is you dont have the greatest perspective as your radical right wing political view clouds your ability to see reality
Pray tell, what are my radical right wing views? I suppose from the perspective of a marxist ideologue everyone is "radical right wing". Or you're just trying to attack me and make sure that if anyone's reading this who isn't aware, I'm a bad person. Right? I mean, there are synonyms for people who hold radical right wing views...I can't remember any off hand though. What are they again?
That is a lie my post made four factual points and none of them were political, any of which you could have chosen to address rather than get personal, at all. I have no idea how it could be seen as bullying. Good job I did not do what you did eh you would be apoplectic with rage. So many on here do what they are complaining about
FFS let it go man let it go.
I have no desire to engage with the opinions you posit as facts when your reasons for posting are more illuminating than the post itself. If a woman or a transgender person made a post about suffering emotional or physical abuse would you have chimed in to ensure everyone knew how statistically unlikely or likely their abuse was? As Cougar puts it
Men’s rights activists” are generally right-wing nutjobs who are a threat to their own swiveleyesation
so you simply couldn't let the discussion continue normally. It's a perfect illustration of how you're more concerned with dumping on anyone or anything that even hints at contradicting your world view. I wasn't remotely surprised by your post, merely the fact that Cougar was.
FWIW GT i see you as on some sort of very public route to “recovery” as you explain the reasons for your views publicly. I think its very brave of you to do so and positive that men can discuss emotional topics openly. Man hugs all round as i dont agree with you but i do respect you.
I guess there's no point checking your replies to his previous topics to see if that's what you really think.
I guess there’s no point checking your replies to his previous topics to see if that’s what you really think.
Jimjam I would suggest that whatever has been said before is less relevant than what is being said now. The debate is what counts, as is respect for opinions and a willingness to listen to those.
Most importantly, whatever else has been said or is said, and irrespective of the degree to which I or others agree with those things, I truly believe that Junky and everyone else is almost certainly a good person with good intentions. Since I've never met him or others, I cannot be 100% sure, but I choose to believe in the tendency towards the goodness in people (whilst still also being very aware for the potential for malevolance).
<span style="color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: #eeeeee;">I have lost my temper with her many times and did strike her once, it wasn’t for control or to establish dominance, it was pure rage at her behaviour towards me. </span>
This was one of the things that I found particularly upsetting. I never got physical with my ex but would occasionally get extremely angry, shouting at her and breaking things etc.
I’m not proud of that at all and would apologise afterwards, but she found this anger of mine totally unacceptable/disgraceful while she would always deny the constant drip, drip, drip of lower-level anger she displayed towards me.
She would almost never apologise for it, always claim it was me being over-sensitive and occasionally admit it but explain it was all my fault anyway and she was right to be angry, and anyway there were lots more things I did wrong she could get angry about too, so in fact she was being generous with me.
Why were you so desperate to be loved by someone?
What did you get from this relationship?
You knew she was a cheat and a liar when you first started seeing her, so why would you think she would be any different with you?
You had no shared obligations, no kids, no house etc. So why carry on in a cheating relationship for 18 months?
You obviously had no respect for the other bloke either.
You were physically stronger and if your often quoted IQ score is correct, then probably more intelligent.
I guess the lure of sex with a "hot bird" can make people do the strangest things.
I know I will get flamed for this but it's one of the lamest stories of "domestic abuse" I have ever heard.
Your life seems to consist of a series of difficult encounters with the opposite sex.
geetee1972 Trust me, posting on here helps even if it's just to get it off your chest. I could have forwarded you onto my on posts on here but I had to get Cougar to remove them because the abusers next victim was using them.
Have a read about narcassist relationships, you may have just survived one. My ex has split from her current husband, after bankrupting/destroying him, and has moved on to the next guy. The speed at which she opperates is staggering while telling everyone she's the victim.
I don't know whether I've a duty of care to warn this guy as I didn't for the last one and feel a bit sorry for him now his life is in tatters. But then again I don't think he'd have believed me if I had. Unfortunately because of our children I still have to maintain a functioning relationship with her. Which is really, really hard to do.
Why were you so desperate to be loved by someone?
Because I'm human
What did you get from this relationship?
Hard to say with hindsight, but at the time the sense of being wanted by someone.
You knew she was a cheat and a liar when you first started seeing her, so why would you think she would be any different with you?
Hope and naivety.
You had no shared obligations, no kids, no house etc. So why carry on in a cheating relationship for 18 months?
See above.
You obviously had no respect for the other bloke either.
I never really thought about it but probably you're right.
You were physically stronger and if your often quoted IQ score is correct, then probably more intelligent.
I'm really not sure how that's relevant?
I guess the lure of sex with a “hot bird” can make people do the strangest things.
Well there's lots of things that make people do lots of strange things so go figure.
I know I will get flamed for this but it’s one of the lamest stories of “domestic abuse” I have ever heard.
You think?
Your life seems to consist of a series of difficult encounters with the opposite sex.
I have no idea where you're getting my life story from.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px; font-style: italic; line-height: 15.36px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Your life seems to consist of a series of difficult encounters with the opposite sex.</span>
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px; line-height: 15.36px; background-color: #eeeeee;">I have no idea where you’re getting my life story from.</span>
If you're a heterosexual male it was a safe bet.
If you’re a heterosexual male it was a safe bet.
LOL that's too funny. It applies if you're bisexual as well though.
"series" is quite a big assumption on that basis though
I have no idea where you’re getting my life story from.
From your posts on here.
You were physically and verbally abused by a group of women at a fairground and felt really scared. Poor little lamb.
You have multiple issues with your "role as a modern man".
Don't know how you should touch/talk/interact with women in your workplace.
I'm not totally sure what your agenda is but looking for sympathy because you were shagging some fit bunny boiler from work, behind her boyfriends back and she was nasty to you, really?
I know I shouldn't say this in 2018 but FFS MTFU.
.
"Why were you so desperate to be loved by someone?
What did you get from this relationship?
You knew she was a cheat and a liar when you first started seeing her, so why would you think she would be any different with you?
You had no shared obligations, no kids, no house etc. So why carry on in a cheating relationship for 18 months?
You obviously had no respect for the other bloke either.
You were physically stronger and if your often quoted IQ score is correct, then probably more intelligent.
I guess the lure of sex with a “hot bird” can make people do the strangest things.
I know I will get flamed for this but it’s one of the lamest stories of “domestic abuse” I have ever heard.
Your life seems to consist of a series of difficult encounters with the opposite sex"
This sort of response is one of the reasons why people are so reluctant to open up about domestic abuse.
gobuchulI know I will get flamed for this but it’s one of the lamest stories of “domestic abuse” I have ever heard.
Deservedly so, what a ****ing stupid thing to say. I mean totally ****ing idiotic.
****
I’m not totally sure what your agenda is but looking for sympathy because you were shagging some fit bunny boiler from work, behind her boyfriends back and she was nasty to you, really?
My agenda was to acknowledge what happened to me in a public forum (especially one that has such a high male population) in order to encourage other men to talk about their experiences and hopefully raise the profile of the problem where it exists.
I guess what you've just done with your post Gobchul is to also show the rank hypocrisy that often exists in even acknowledging this problem and the barriers that this subsequently creates to others sharing their experiences. Good job with that.
GT - You started an affair with a bizarre agreement, that she would continue sleeping with her original partner for 4 months and then go on a holiday with them, then dump them.
If that didn't set any alarm bells ringing then what would of?
Then you carried on for 18 mths.
Also, although you realised she was a psycho, you never told any of the other blokes.
Personally I think ramping this experience up to "domestic abuse" stops a lot of people taking the subject seriously when it is a real issue.
You were never in any real physical danger, got called a lot of names, which, due to the nature of the affair, made of been quite appropriate at the time.
You showed no remorse for the damage you were doing to the other bloke either.
As you may of noticed, zero sympathy from me.
I know a woman, who has developed Parkinsons in her 50's, which is linked to the repeated beatings she took to her head from husband. When he wasn't throwing her and the 3 kids out in the street, in the middle of the night.
Her son committed suicide in his 20's.
So you whinging about the office bike slapping you when you were in your 20's doesn't really cut it mate.
So you whinging about the office bike slapping you when you were in your 20’s doesn’t really cut it mate.
OK well maybe, you might have a point and I respect your opinion, we should debate that. By the way, before we do anything else, let's just be really clear about something.
I don't want your's or anybody else's sympathy. I specifically said I don't want sympathy and I clearly stated that I don't regard myself as a victim, so let's engage in debate with that clear ok?
OK good let's move on.
As far as I can tell what you're effectively doing by questioning my specific set of circumstances is challenging the definition of 'domestic abuse'. It seems to be that you equate domestic abuse with being a) just physical vilence, and b) only enough physical violence to cause serious physical injury.
It sounds very much like you're saying the recent widening of abuse to include 'coercive controlling behaviour' or other psychological manipulation is a nonsense and doesn't count.
It also sounds like you're saying that a bit of slapping is acceptable, as long as the recepient isn't in any real danger.
Have I got it right?
I think Gobby is suggesting that on the scale of domestic abuse, your experience is rating fairly low. Not that that devaluates you obviously.
You also go to some lengths to disassociate yourself from being called 'a'victim, though surely the one receiving the abuse is, by definition, 'the' victim.
It sounds very much like you’re saying the recent widening of abuse to include ‘coercive controlling behaviour’ or other psychological manipulation is a nonsense and doesn’t count.
No. Not at all.
Regarding the slapping, why didn't you stop her? Was she stronger than you?
If you had wanted to beat the shit out of her, you could of.
That's the major difference in the vast majority of domestic abuse cases and why it's still a much bigger problem for females than it is for males.
Physical abuse generally goes hand in hand with the controlling behaviour.
In your case, I have already said, you basically put up with a nutter because you found her very attractive and her method of control and manipulation has been used by females since the very beginning of time. Pussy whipped could be the non-PC term?
Technically it was an abusive relationship, however, calling it that is like describing a cold sore as herpes.
<span style="color: #444444;">Regarding the slapping, why didn’t you stop her? Was she stronger than you?</span>
Ever tried stopping someone slapping you? It's pretty hard without hurting them, and if they keep trying then you either have to tie them up or something, or run away.
It’s pretty hard without hurting them
If you are significantly stronger and grab their wrists then they can't do much.
If it hurts them, tough. Completely reasonable force.
It’s pretty hard without hurting them
If you are significantly stronger and grab their wrists then they can't do much.
If it hurts them, tough. Completely reasonable force.
<span style="color: #444444; background-color: #eeeeee;">If you are significantly stronger and grab their wrists then they can’t do much.</span>
Hmm. Knees? Forehead? Ever been in a real fight? Sure, a larger stronger person will usually be able to overpower a smaller person, but usually not without significantly hurting them if they're determined enough, and maybe he doesn't want to do that.
Ever been in a real fight?
I grew up in the NE in the 70's and 80's.
It was on the curriculum.
but usually not without significantly hurting them if they’re determined enough, and maybe he doesn’t want to do that.
Again, use reasonable force, if they get hurt tough.
A sizeable portion of that 85% will also themselves be perpetrators of DV. This can be lost in the statistics as they are not as good at inflicting injuries as their (mostly) male partners. When such an incident occurs it is normally marked as the woman being the victim, not both.
Source please and evidence- I assume you have seen some research you can link to
I have seen research but I don't have it saved to link to, I will have a look later. From memory it was near 50% of all abusive relationships (heterosexual) where the abuse was reciprocal. Of these cases of reciprocal abuse, men were much more likely to inflict greater injury than the women and also the injury received in reciprocal abuse was on average greater than that received in non-reciprocal abuse.
That’s the major difference in the vast majority of domestic abuse cases and why it’s still a much bigger problem for females than it is for males.
That right there is why I posted what I posted, because that's how so many people think and what is so wrong with our culture. It's ignorant, biggoted and hypocritical.
Me and geetee have hardly seen eye to eye on here generally but honestly can’t believe how heartless and mean-spirited some of you are.
Some absolutely textbook victim-blaming going on too.
That’s the major difference in the vast majority of domestic abuse cases and why it’s still a much bigger problem for females than it is for males.
That right there is why I posted what I posted, because that’s how so many people think and what is so wrong with our culture. It’s ignorant, biggoted and hypocritical.
When you can give me an example of a man with Parkinsons from repeated head trauma dealt out by his wife, then you may have a point.
honestly can’t believe how heartless and mean-spirited some of you are.
His story, is that he was "seduced" by a femme fatale, who tricked him into worshipping her and then she said nasty words to him.
In reality, he was shagging the office bike, behind her boyfriends back, got infatuated and acted like an idiot.
Ouch..tough crowd.
Me and geetee have hardly seen eye to eye on here generally but honestly can’t believe how heartless and mean-spirited some of you are.
Well yes, for sure Gobchul's comments have been quite startling, but in a way they are relevant and important.
For example they highlight the problem of implicit bias. They show clearly that when discussing possible wrongs done against people, the gender of the person to whom that wrong is done changes how we feel about the wrong and how we then act accordingly.
I do think it's important to understand that the male experience of DV/DA could well be very different to the female one; the dynamics that govern it are different, but different shouldn't be conflated with better or worse, that's just an unhelpful narative at best and misandrist at worst.
I'm not surprised that there have been so many other similar experiences shared here and quite a few people posting they aren't ready to acknolwedge it.
BTW Gobchul, when you ask why didn't I stop her, the answer is because I was always taught to respect women and certainly not to hit them. I was also in love so doing something like that would have felt really bad.
"In reality, he was shagging the office bike, behind her boyfriends back, got infatuated and acted like an idiot."
You're a charmer & more than a little selective with your interpretation.
Did you not read the bit where she's slapping & spitting in his face?
"Brave post. Thanks for sharing."
+ another.
"That sounds really tough going lazlowoodbine. I think you need to go have a chat with someone professionally to see what your options are."
Regardless of the outcome, I believe it would help to gain a different perspective on your relationship.
A truer barometer might be to post your experiences on mumsnet and see how you are received.
"Have a read about narcassist relationships, you may have just survived one. My ex has split from her current husband, after bankrupting/destroying him, and has moved on to the next guy. The speed at which she opperates is staggering while telling everyone she’s the victim."
I've seen this up close & personal - not me, but someone I know exceptionally well.
From the outside looking in it seems staggering how somebody can stay in a such an unhealthy relationship.
However, on the inside it must appear very different & I've no idea how that picture must look. FWIW the chap in the relationship at the time was ex-para & 22 SAS. He was most certainly no wimp. Emotionally ****ed up quite possibly though..
Still, the above description of a narcissistic relationship is pretty bloody accurate IMHO.
GT - FWIW I don't believe a lot of the stuff you've posted. I'm sure you don't care.
The fairground post was similar, poor middle aged white bloke gets set up on by some women, is left a bit shaken but he's OK. However, noone thinks blokes can be scared of women or women can be abusive towards men. Something needs to be done.
Did you not read the bit where she’s slapping & spitting in his face?
By spitting, I read that as spitting while shouting in his face, not a full on "spit".
Slapping? He could of restrained her. He didn't need to actually hit her to stop her.
Besides, he's fully entitled to use reasonable force to protect himself.
He had no shared assets with her, no children, no ties. He should of just walked. Victim blaming it may be. He stayed because he wanted to.
"He stayed because he wanted to."
Narcissistic relationships can be extremely hard to get out of, really hard.....don't underestimate just how hard.
"By spitting, I read that as spitting while shouting in his face, not a full on “spit”."
You'd have to check with the OP on that.
"Slapping? He could of restrained her. He didn’t need to actually hit her to stop her."
Not always that easy, particularly for some men. I wonder if it's because they are afraid of the damage they might do? I'm just guessing..
BTW your friend with Parkinson's? My sympathies - that's brutal..
BTW your friend with Parkinson’s? My sympathies – that’s brutal..
You know the worst thing to me, was she went to the doctors with her 2 (adult) daughters, when he asked if she had ever suffered head trauma, she said no.
It was her daughters that said to her, "but what about when dad used to beat you up?".
To put that in the same league as GT's situation is madness.