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we did choose to pick a fill in keeper and those are the consequences of that.
I think that's a bit harsh on Bairstow. He's more than a fill in keeper - he's just not the best keeper available.
So....what changes would you make for the next England XI?
Anderson out for Wood, Stokes out for Curran for me. Depends on Ali's finger.
It wasn't the declaration or the Bairstow drops or the Sunday league swishes by Moeen and others, it was a combination of all of those things and an inability to read the game effectively. They are committed to this approach but still learning to master it themselves. There have to be times when giving additional wicket opportunities to the Aussies is erased from their mindset - the down the wicket charges at seemingly meaningless points in the game just makes no sense when you are already chugging along at >5 per over in test cricket.
Also, as someone up there says, the Aussie batters will hit some proper form at some point. I'm guessing if they had known that the wicket would be that dead, Mark Wood might have been picked.
Real entertainment though
That's really difficult - lots of if's but's and maybe's in my selection below but here goes.
Anderson for Wood I think, depends on the pitch as well - if a greentop then Anderson stays and we have a seam attack of Broad, Robinson and Anderson. Or does Broad get rested, not on form but on the workload that's coming - he looks like a kid but he is 37.
I think Stokes stays; although I can see some justification in his position being at risk he does now have 10 days rest for his knee, he's the skipper and he is talismanic in the field and does just have that golden arm (I thought he might have an over or two right at the end).
After all I said IMHO Foakes has to come in. And if he does, it depends then on Stokes' knee and the pitch. If it's a greentop and Stokes can give us 10 overs an innings, plus the three main seamers, I'd let Root bowl spin and bring Foakes for Ali.
If it's a proper test pitch, hard but then a turner, then Wood in for Anderson and keep Ali so we have both spin options (depends on finger) - but then means one of Duckett, Crawley or Bairstow make way, and the other two make up the opening pair.
Does that help 😉
What I *think* will happen is if all fit and well, and fingers and knees healed - unchanged / or maybe Wood for Anderson, depending on pitch. Declarations, village style swishes, and catches aside, they very nearly won this test, and remember AUS annihilated IND the week before. We were pretty good, and while I know SS and ML won't fail all series, as I said 5 days ago - despite losing I think AUS have plenty to worry about how to counter Bazball, which burnt steadily for us this game but didn't actually explode in the way it can.
Fine margins, had Stokes clung on to that chance - hardly a chance, really - England would probably have won. Bit perturbed by Lyon’s batting transformation.
Jimmy was well off it.
Fair play to England for pushing the Aussies all the way. They had them on the back foot for most of the match and nine times out of ten they would win when the the opposition are 8 down with 50 odd left to get. But fair play to Cummings, who by all accounts is a thoroughly decent chap, for a career-defining captain's innings. Hopefully both sides can shake hands on a great match and we can look forward to more of the same.
I do think that Stokes has bigger goals than winning a match. He seems to be trying to save test cricket by showing just how exciting it can be. He wants to create talking points and by that measure (given all the chat above) the declaration was a success.
Ben's own words say what I think almost exactly.
"I thought that was a time to pounce. I am not going to change the way I have gone about my cricket because it is the Ashes. Who knows, we could have got an extra 40 runs or lost two wickets in two balls. I am not a captain who gets by on what ifs.
"We were in control of most of the game and managed to produce a result. Obviously we wanted to be on top. We are devastated but that's sport. It is great and an emotional rollercoaster."
Hopefully both sides can shake hands on a great match and we can look forward to more of the same.
Even with single digits to get, I enjoyed Cummins walking across all three and flicking one down to fine leg. I think Broad said something about don't miss one and him and Cummins then just giggled at each other as it if was a backyard knock up.....he then promptly hit him in the ribs three times. Exactly how the game should be played.
Great game, but if there’s any way of getting Vaughan away from our screens and radios then please make it happen.
He sucks the joy out on everything.
Vaughan
For a pretty successful captain, who must have had a fair bit of tactical acumen, he talks a lot of shit.
Athers and Hussain are far superior in their analysis of the game.
you don’t choose to miss a catch – the declaration was a choice and it was the wrong one and cost the match
It was a gamble, but batting on would have meant a draw.
It was a great match and people need to remember the state England were in before Stokes became captain.
Anyone else watching the womens' test?
Obviously an absolute road at Trent Bridge, but the standard of cricket is pretty damned good. The standard of seam bowling is dire, but spin, batting and fielding are all top notch.
Tammy Beaumont can certainly play - compact, organised and times the arse off of it when she plays an attacking shot.
👍
Listened to a fair bit on TMS. Great double hundred by Beaumont.
Good fightback by England after an awful start to this innings.
Going to be a tough chase but not impossible. 10 wickets for Ecclestone, excellent performance.
Ecclestone is probably the best spinner in England after Jack Leach. She’s an amazing bowler. Not bad with the bat either. It’d never happen but it’d be fascinating to see her in a men’s first class game.
Well played Australia. That opening bowling spell in Australia's 2nd innings made things tough for England.
Tongue in for Ali as the only change. 4 seamers says Stokes knee is not healed, Moeen was apparently fit but Root will be the spin option.
Four and a bit seamers and reduced spin attack makes the 'keeper choice a bit easier as he'll be stood back for 90% of the time.
Tongue in for Ali as the only change. 4 seamers says Stokes knee is not healed, Moeen was apparently fit but Root will be the spin option.
Eesh, that's not exactly a confidence-inspiring lineup. Maybe they're expecting overcast weather, and a green bouncy wicket?
as he’ll be stood back for 90% of the time.
watching the ball fly past no doubt :/ The England Cricket Clique.
It's still not the right selection, I'm afraid. Liam Dawson is the LFL replacement for Leach. He's OK with the bat and he's sufficiently down the road career-wise to know he will be a temporary fill in who can play Bazball with gay abandon.
I agree on not picking Rehan for Lord's - it is generally not a spinning wicket for a ripper of the ball. It is also always small on one side of the ground too. I favour always playing a spinner for variety, I just think Dawson is the right pick for this game. Moeen 'fit'? Well, he was supposedly fit for Edgbaston but his spinning finger was too soft through underuse. That won't have changed in a fortnight.
If I was Aus I would want to win the toss, get batting and single out one or two of the seamers for punishment. Stokes will find himself running low on options very quickly. I think, sadly, we may be witnessing the last acts of Stokes as a bowler. He's not even a fourth seamer now.
Much as he's determined to make a twunt of himself, Robinson should prosper at Lords as it is now probably the equal bounciest test wicket in England.
It's on the line now. If England go 2-0 down, that's the Ashes gone.
Liam Dawson is the LFL replacement for Leach. He’s OK with the bat and he’s sufficiently down the road career-wise to know he will be a temporary fill in who can play Bazball with gay abandon.
But if they'd picked him he wouldn't have been able to score 140odd or take 12 wickets for Hants against Middlesex!
But if they’d picked him he wouldn’t have been able to score 140odd or take 12 wickets for Hants against Middlesex!
😎
...morons......
yep I concur describes the England selectors to a tee!
Aussies openers look comfortable here. Big gob Ollie on already.
First thing Bairstow has held on to this summer.
TONGUE!!
1
midlifecrashes
Full Member
First thing Bairstow has held on to this summer.
Big enough that he can spot it coming
Hmmm, has Pope done his shoulder in? Still off.
Looks like it.
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Why isn't the Lords Test first in the series any more? Best to get the defeat out of the way with four left to play.
Back in the day of one touring team playing 5/6 tests in the summer, Lord's was, traditionally, the second test and the Oval the last.
England look to be in strife here - burned some reviews and Labuschagne in particular scoring in a very wide arc. The Ashes are still just poking out of Pat Cummins' blazer pocket still, but might well disappear from English view in the next couple of days...
Hallelujah!
<p>Was just typing that the Ashes are gone, innings defeat impending etc. But Root’s given them a chance of limiting the damage today. </p>
Right.
FFS.
Come on England. You have an end open now.
Doh! Starc off the mark first ball with a four.
But the point stands. England have to get these last 4 wickets for under 50.
Decent start to the morning. Not that the Lords crowd seem to have noticed as there was barely a murmur for that last wicket. I'm guessing most of them aren't really arsed about the cricket and are just there for a corporate networking shindig. 🙄
Well, this is The Ashes right here, right now.
England have to get this over and done with for <400.
I think Cummins will hold an end up, Smith will get his ton, then it's over as they'll get 450-475.
Game on!
So yesterday evening with the Aussies looking likely to run riot with their first innings score, we've reeled in their last 7 wickets for 100 runs or so and put ourselves back in the game. However, I can't help feel that Duckett and Crawley are going to get themselves out cheaply if they go full on BazBall. Too much quality in the attack to go gung ho. Tone it down a bit boys, get through lunch and dig in through the afternoon. Plenty of time.
Spacemonkey has it.
I wouldn't say England are back in the game yet, more avoided being batted out of it.
Momentum. We nipped their last few wickets out cheaply there. DO NOT HAND THE INITIATIVE BACK TO AUSTRALIA BY LOSING A CLUSTER OF WICKETS.
A few observations from yesterday:
Jimmy is getting a lot of stick for a man who bowled 15 overs for 29 runs. Sure, he didn't take any wickets but he was very tidy indeed.
If Pope is injured, if (when?) Stokes gets injured who is the skipper? Broad? Jimmy? YJB?
Vaughan is soooo negative about, well, everything. Please, please get him off the screen.
It feels like a "normal" test. Nothing overly showy, a reasonable pitch, 400 runs.
Well they're certainly not hanging about on the run-rate but not taking huge risks at the same time. All looking good assuming they don't get carried away. Australia's bowling probably shows just how well England did this morning. Very different to yesterday thank god!
Dear Lord....do they never learn....
Earth to England, you don't have to thrash at every short ball!
This could well be Stokes's captaincy going down in flames here.
If he is no longer a bowler this is putting all sorts of pressure on him as a captain and player.
Block 5-6 overs out, FFS.
Lyon missing too (Finn just made the exact point), so Aus only have four quicks and one of those is Green. Bat some time, put some miles in their legs.
Jesus H Christ.
Exactly, they can't bowl like that all day.
Somebody slap Harry Brook..🙄🙄
FFS Harry Brook thinks he's playing baseball now. Bonkers!
I'm beginning to wonder if 'Bazball' is actually just modern terminology for what used to be called 'batting like a ****'.
🤷♂️
I know what I'd be chirping Stokes with.
"Jeez the skipper is a shit bloke. Sends the lads out to have a thrash and get out, then bats for his average".
Just watching the highlights. Can someone remind england that it's the ashes they are contesting.
I'm happy for them to carry on playing like this. It gives them their best chance to win. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Duckett as an example did all that work to throw his wicket away .
You can't defend harry brook at all. Jo root was a 50/50 I've seen them go both ways.
Stokes could do with a score, if he can’t bowl. Hope he can dig in and anchor things, maybe then some JB fireworks, and a handy lead. Reality - probably scrape towards parity and then another one innings shoot out.
England do like a run chase though.
scrape towards parity and then another one innings shoot out
Sounds fine by me.
At 200-1 or whatever it was, England should have been eyeing a brilliant first innings lead. But we gifted the Aussies three wickets for nothing and brought them back into it when they had implemented their last plan. All we had to do was not take the bait, look them in the eyes and say "what have you got now?"
But hell, they could well prove me wrong (again), but if they do win, it will have been made harder by that brainless spell yesterday. 🤷♂️
Duckett as an example did all that work to throw his wicket away
He scored 98, set a great platform up and batted really well. He should be getting huge credit for a great knock in my view.
Somebody slap Harry Brook
You can’t defend harry brook at all.
Absolute rubbish, he's not out overnight against a cracking Aussie attack, of course you can defend hi.. They've picked a player who plays shots, that is literally his whole game, why do we suddenly expect him not to?
I've been really frustrated with a lot of the views on England at the moment from the media and a few on here, we have such short memories. 2 year ago Joe Root was coming in at 3-2 and we'd have have been chuffed if we got to 250 all out. Today we're at 278-4 with a quick run rate and still have Stokes and Brook batting with Bairstow still to come. Yes, they've played some bad shots but they're in a great position and the cricket is brilliant to watch. I'd rather they play a few bad shots and be in that position than the old world where they played bad shots and were all out for 200.
I read a tweet that said the essence of this England team is being in a constant limbo between "well, that could be much worse" and "well, that could have been much better", and that is the sweet spot where great sport happens.
We're watching a brilliantly coached and captained England side, they make a few mistakes (show me an England side that didn't (I'll give you a clue, Michael Vaughan's sides made plenty...)), but they're winning games and even those they don't are close run thrillers.
Rant over.
I’m happy for them to carry on playing like this. It gives them their best chance to win.
I agree mostly, but it felt like a few of them walked into an obvious trap yesterday.
Well said Lunge.
It's a published policy, no apologies, they are going to play Bazball for good and bad and so far the record says it comes off more times than not (79% win rate under Stokes and two of the losses were thrillers, one run vs NZ and 2 wickets last week)
Michael Vaughan (51% win rate) can moan all he likes, loved him as a player and skipper in his time but that was in his time. He used to go on about the wenwees ('when we used to play.....' etc.) and is becoming the biggest wenwee of them all now.
Get over it. It might not be how it was done in the past, it's how this team does it and it is MAGNIFICENT in it's balls-out, don't-care-what-you-think, seat-of-your-pants ness. It's Jens Voight in whites.
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
Yes brooks is still there but some of attempted shots where reckless at best in the time frame of the innings. Stokes had toned it down last night for the reason they need to be both still batting well into this morning.
Duckett did well absolutely but a daft shot cost him 30 more runs (maybe) and they will be crucial on the last day .
Overall aus set up a plan and england fell into the trap.
I'm not knocking englands new zest because test cricket in England will die if each game is drawn over 5 days of plodding about.
I'd also note Steve Smith has been great so far. If Lyon is to be replaced for at least the rest of this test and it appears he is aus have lost a huge skill.
Stokes had toned it down last night for the reason they need to be both still batting well into this morning.
I disagree. Look at a typical Ben Stokes innings. He has always played himself in at the start, and then when he pushes on (and of course if it works) then his s/r increases massively. He's batting like he usually does, just as the others have stuck to their natural games.
Is it not Bazball if you replace the last 5% of dick measuring with a modicum of sense?
If (and god knows we all love an if) England were walking out to bat this morning only one or two down, but with 25 less runs on the board, Aus would be thinking they must take early wickets. It's 24 overs to the new ball and no Lyon. That's when you go full Bazball.
Taking on the short stuff 'low to high' wasn't ever going to be that profitable in any case - it is deployed as a strangling tactic more often than not. Ironically Root started off playing it really well. Little paddle hooks/pulls for one. Then the bowlers are going at five an over and, basically, cannot take a wicket. But I feel England felt obliged to take it on as a matter of manhood or similar. Australia's short ball tactic was not the bristling new ball machismo of Mitch Johnson, it was the tired, soft ball version purveyed by the likes of Wagner and Broad. It just needed milking at a still high run rate and treated as it deserved.
Look at a typical Ben Stokes innings. He has always played himself in at the start
Charging down the wicket first ball most of last summer and the winter would suggest otherwise.
Yes brooks is still there but some of attempted shots where reckless at best in the time frame of the innings. Stokes had toned it down last night for the reason they need to be both still batting well into this morning.
Duckett did well absolutely but a daft shot cost him 30 more runs (maybe) and they will be crucial on the last day .
But that is literally how they play. Duckett's 98 came from playing daft shots. If you don't want daft shots then you play Dom Sibley who plays no shots, scores slowly and still gets out for 28.
Brook is the same, he's the player he is because he plays daft shots.
I'm not sure Duckett played many daft shots. He looked like a typical left-handed, busy, short-arsed, batter playing glides and nudges then lovely drives when it was right up to him. 🤷♂️
So much for Stokes being the steady hand. 🙄
He was out to a good ball and a great catch.
I may be being harsh on duckett as I wanted him to get a ton at lords if your on 98 at lords get 3 singles then play 20/20 style.
Lyons is out for ashes it seams
Wasn't suggesting it was a stupid wicket, just unfortunate as he was doing quite well at calming it all down. Hopefully now we'll see Bairstow and Brook put on a steady 50ish without much fuss, then when they start getting close to parity they can start hitting it.
Lyons is out for ashes it seams
With Lyons out then I suspect seam won't be order of the day for wicket choice 😉
Lol auto correct
FFS.
FFS 🙄
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
I make that four wickets from the same tactic. I bet Australians are entertained.
It's their plan and it's working aus are playing very well . Stokes wicket was good bowling and a better catch .
Sorry but it's just macho bollox. Just let them go past FFS. They can't bowl short all day, and even if they do so what? They'll eventually get ragged and that will be the opportunity for playing shots.
wazball
Yip, it's a plan but, as Tubbs has just said on commentary, if you just duck the bowlers soon get bored ...
Of course it's their plan, because England keep repeating the same mistake!
Definition of insanity?
FFS.
A hundred 1st innings deficit when England should have been eyeing a 70 run lead.
Ashes most likely gone and it's not even July.