Whichever one is RWD if you enjoy driving,
Both a Passat and a basic Merc will be dull as dishwater to drive.
If both cars are the same price, then I would go for the one that has the best ergonomics, seats etc etc. However it wouldn't be a Merc or VW.
However it wouldn’t be a Merc or VW.
Nope, it would be the Beemer.
Can I put a bid in for X factor. Some cars (premium or otherwise) are just really ugly or the seating position does not work for you etc. You might go for the irrational choice to accommodate those aspects.
Total rubbish and the ‘wrong wheel drive’ comment backs it up.
FWD was nothing but a cost cutting exercise. No one designs a driver's car with FWD. No one.
Except Lotus with the FWD Elan. Which isn't as good a drive as the RWD Elan.
That’s fine, good for you. I was laughing at the recommendation of picking a car based solely on this for ‘driving enjoyment’.
For example, for driving enjoyment, would you take an Lexus LS over a Renaultsport Megane RS?
Or a 130i over a Fiesta ST?
Or a Ssangyong Rhodius over an S Max?
Or a 318i SE over a Honda Civic Type R?
Driving enjoyment and FWD/RWD/AWD isn't that clean cut... and I guess we should be comparing RWD apples with FWD apples.
Redlining a Type R .... is a bit transitory unless you are on a track..(a few seconds and your out of road/legal limit and/or both and that's only in 3rd). heck flooring my diesel with a measly 285 BHP soon runs out of legal road...the first real performance car I drove was a tuned up 306 Gti-6.. scared myself shitless on the uphill onto the motorway... but after some time the power and engine noise became normal... and its go-cart ability the same whereas behaviour in traffic was painful. I even took the Carlton 1.8 auto-slug about town instead..
My current RWD car though just puts a small grin on my face pretty much constantly... it doesn't need pushing to do it. (It might be a smaller grin but it last longer)
FWD was nothing but a cost cutting exercise. No one designs a driver’s car with FWD. No one.
Except Lotus with the FWD Elan. Which isn’t as good a drive as the RWD Elan.
And almost all renaultsport cars.
And nobody accuses the original mini of not handling well.
The ability to hold the tail out under power isn't really integral to driving, and if you want the best performance you'd have 4wd anyway.
There's simply far more to a good car than which wheels are driven. And when you're buying a large car, there's far more to it than how it handles on twisty roads. Hence you need some spare cash for fun cars.
Driving enjoyment and FWD/RWD/AWD isn’t that clean cut… and I guess we should be comparing RWD apples with FWD apples.
No, that's exactly the point: he said "whichever one has rear wheel drive" disregarding all other factors.
Driving enjoyment comes from a number of things nicely weighted controls, lack of understeer, nice gearchange, steering feedback etc.
All things being equal, I'd probably take the RWD car, but all things are not equal. Hence why saying RWD is great and FWD is 'wrong wheel drive' is total rubbish.
Which is brilliant for 2nd hand buyers like me.
Indeed. As long as you can also accept the downsides.
And almost all renaultsport cars.
They're not cars that have been designed with FWD for driving enjoyment. They're shopping carts that have been tuned up. Their flagship was RWD.
disregarding all other factors.
Life must be bleak if you take everything so literally.
And almost all renaultsport cars.
And nobody accuses the original mini of not handling well.
The ability to hold the tail out under power isn’t really integral to driving, and if you want the best performance you’d have 4wd anyway.
It's not simply about road holding....
There’s simply far more to a good car than which wheels are driven. And when you’re buying a large car, there’s far more to it than how it handles on twisty roads.
See how it handles at moderate speeds on twisty roads is also important... as is how it feels at 70... etc.
No, that’s exactly the point: he said “whichever one has rear wheel drive” disregarding all other factors.
Erm yep... but one of the two choices is FWD and the other is RWD....
Hence why saying RWD is great and FWD is ‘wrong wheel drive’ is total rubbish.
Yeah, it's just particularly dull witted rage induced rambling/trolling 🙂
I've always been into nice cars, but where does this fun driving actually happen? I guess I'm getting old, but given the congestion on our roads, and modern/sensible attitudes to speeding and safety, a car that is comfortable, quiet, composed and relaxing is much more important than being fun. Public roads are pretty boring places generally, unless you are purposely being a cock (or, avoiding one, I guess).
I’m favouring the Merc on the basis its a more comfortable ride, despite being a year older. I want the comfort now but I’m thinking this is my last purchase for a few years so am looking to the future really.
I bought a C class estate Sport in 2011. Its brilliant, 130k on the clock and its like new. I will replace it with the same but cant be bothered to part with the cash when this one is so good.
Yeah, it’s just particularly dull witted rage induced rambling/trolling
I’ve always been into nice cars, but where does this fun driving actually happen? I guess I’m getting old, but given the congestion on our roads, and modern/sensible attitudes to speeding and safety, a car that is comfortable, quiet, composed and relaxing is much more important than being fun. Public roads are pretty boring places generally, unless you are purposely being a cock (or, avoiding one, I guess).
Quite the opposite ... I've been through the fast hot hatch and such.... and Sunday was explaining to Jnr WHY I wouldn't have a McClaren.... (we live very close to HQ)
My RWD car is comfortable, quiet, composed and relaxing AND fun at the same time without acting like a cock. (Though I used alternate words with the 8yr old)
My RWD car is comfortable, quiet, composed and relaxing AND fun at the same time without acting like a cock. (Though I used alternate words with the 8yr old)
I don't really see how any journey on UK roads cruising along in a comfortable/composed (and safe) way at the speed limit could be deemed 'fun'*. Pleasant at best. Satisfying maybe, if the roads are quiet. I don't see a good RWD car being significantly different from a good FWD car in these circumstances (and I drive both regularly). If you push it, maybe (and of course, on the track), but on public roads, where can you do that (responsibly) to the extent it becomes fun?
* might depend on your definition.
Seems to me that you could spec a Passat with tons of cool stuff and it’d come out the same or a bit more than a basic E-Class.
they're both well made cars. Personally i've found the seats in Mercs to be better than anything else i've sat in (not spent any time in Volvos). We've only had smaller VW's but that's the thing I'd really like to upgrade.
A lot of extras stuff in modern cars seem like box ticking. Beyond aircon, cruise (better still speed limiter) and a decent sound system (with BT connection) most of the other stuff seems of little benefit. Even SatNav and in car phone seem a bit superfluous - a decent phone mount on the dash and I found sound quality often better with an iphone on speaker than over car system.
Anything that moves controls away from physical switches that you can operate by feel seems like a UI nightmare. A lot of the automatic stuff seems badly designed (internal panel lights on without headlights? WTF? had to tap on someones window last night who was driving on front daylight running lights only at 10pm.). Heated seats might be great in Sweden but do you really need them in the UK?
"My RWD car is comfortable, quiet, composed and relaxing AND fun at the same time without acting like a cock."
So you mean you just like rwd and it makes zero difference to your driving experiance if it was 2wd/4wd /fwd/rwd or a hovercar.
and as Angeldust. Without being a complete killjoy anyone who looks for their driving to be fun scares me shitless. I don't want people having 'fun' around me on the motorway and I definitely don't want to meet them on a country lane or a rural A road when I'm on my bike. I don't want them driving up my street either. Safe, yes, comfortable yes but public roads are not the place to be having 'fun' in a car.
Fun to me implies addrenaline and a level of risk - at least that's what i get out of mtb
If any of the road network is fun at a legal speed then it's poorly designed and/or the speed limit is too high.
Fun to me implies addrenaline and a level of risk – at least that’s what i get out of mtb
This.
If you are a race driver on a race track; drifting; or on a track day; I get it that RWD is more fun.
On public roads driving responsibly (at legal speed limits), insisting RWD makes a difference is usually to justify your choice of car (usually BMW 3 series), or you are just regurgitating something you read on Pistonheads. I drive similar spec'd 3/5 series (RWD and 4WD) , and A4/A6's (FWD and 4WD) quite a lot. Both are generally very nice cars, and they feel a bit different, but under normal driving conditions I don't find there is any significant difference in the 'fun' factor.
Having to drive a poor car (cheap skoda, most Vauxhalls, Fiats) I find pretty miserable compared to better alternatives, but it's not the fun factor that makes a difference.
Some driving aids encourage this stupidity...
I don’t really see how any journey on UK roads cruising along in a comfortable/composed (and safe) way at the speed limit could be deemed ‘fun’*. Pleasant at best. Satisfying maybe, if the roads are quiet. I don’t see a good RWD car being significantly different from a good FWD car in these circumstances (and I drive both regularly). If you push it, maybe (and of course, on the track), but on public roads, where can you do that (responsibly) to the extent it becomes fun?
* might depend on your definition.
Its down to definition and setting my own expectations... (and it’s fun with a small f)
For me though the fun with a small f is down to the “not significantly different in these circumstances” ... it’s enough to make me grin a small grin... pretty much every time I drive.
Could I drive a good FWD round the same bend at the same speed... sure .. I could drive a crap one but the tiny tell it’s RWD is enough to make me smile.
90% of my driving by time at the moment tends to be out of towns at weekends before 08:00 so I’m not sat in traffic or pleasant goes out of the window.
Adrenaline ... well I used to do that in cars on the trackdays but now I’m too busy getting it on a bike .. so I adjust my expectations and justify my choice...or lack of choice in wanting to change my car for anything else (though a nice van as well would be pleasant)
Whether it’s more pleasant or fun ... yes a matter of definition but given the toss up between the two I’ll go for the one that puts a small grin on a regular basis?
Having to drive a poor car
Yep, rented a big Kia estate a few years back. Suspect both shorter and narrower than our car but felt huge and lifeless, feedback free steering meant it felt completely disconnected from the road. The Fiat 500 we rented earlier this year was the same until i found the button to turn off “city” mode that made the steering super light for parking,
Personally, if you are paying your own money, get a Japanese car. Simple. BMW are the best out of the German brands - not keen on Mercs as they still rust - seen too many to trust them, and a mate is a car nut and has a Aston Vantage that's 10 years old, but his garage has shown him the rust on new(ish) Mercs on the underside.
We've had 15 year plus ownership of Japanese cars from new. Very little went wrong. Nissan and Toyota. Loads of toys inside if you spec a nearly new car, and you save a fortune on NEW RRP.
PCP/lease, get what ever is cheapest. You won't see the long term issues.
Extras were zero valued when I leased my Eos. That apparently included the £1800 leather seats. Which just about every convertible has.
Premuim car every time if buying new and financing the depreciation (aka pcp or leasing). If used or old and used, then toys on an already good car. We have a top spec CRV. Toys are great!
WGAF about a badge
Not me. The 'premium car' bit is about higher build spec - so more sound insulation, thicker glass, more standard kit etc. I've not looked into it seriously of course, so this might not be necessarily true although I perceive it to be. I have had quite a few nice taxis lately, mostly E-Class, and they are clearly quieter inside than cheaper cars. They also seem to come with progressive springs or something, the car seems to be supple up to a point but not roll too much. Not sure I like how that feels though.
Which brings me onto the gadgets themselves. I don't much care for fancy trim or footwell lighting or crap like that. But the 'adaptive chassis control' thing on VWs or similar would appeal to me - the ability to make the car more plush on motorways and firm it up for other driving. If it works, that is!
Other things I'm interested in would include
- Climate control - the system in the Prius is great. I select the temperature and it adjusts the vents appropriately and also takes sunlight into account too. Drive from shade into strong sun and a second later the air's got colder. It sounds as if it could be annoying but it's not, it works perfectly for me.e
- Reversing camera - useful
- Automatic box, obvs
- Panoramic sunroof, maybe. I thought it ridiculous, but every time I get in a car with one it feels amazing. Ok, so I've not done a long drive in one in the hot sun....
- Integrated satnav. Yes, a phone is more up to date, but having a built in unit with a better display like a HUD or something by the instruments, that's better imo. But the ideal option on paper would seem to be the phone integration - so you use the up-to-date Google maps but built into the dash. No crappy windscreen suckers.
- On some cars you can get self levelling rear suspension for heavy loads or towing. I really want this!
- I'd quite fancy radar cruise control, maybe.
- Auto dipping lights would be good.
- Heated seats - I didn't like this idea for years until I realised that on a low setting combined with a lower fan speed it makes you feel warmer quicker on cold days.
- In principle I'd love a 4wd version to help with towing, snow and generally driving, but you lose a fair bit of MPG it seems.
- Road sign recognition - could be handy for making sure you haven't missed a speed limit sign.
Surely the old Passat has lots of life left in it :-)?
It certainly does. Just had new shocks all round and new driveshafts, makes a huge difference. Drives beautifully now. It's going to have to last at least three more years. This is purely window shopping, there will be no car purchase 🙂
Re the RWD argument. Seriously? Driving enjoyment is only related to speed and boy racerism? What about cruising along through beautiful scenery on a nice day on a quiet road, with no time pressures? Two roads that have made me happy lately: The M6 north of Lancaster, and the M3 after Basingstoke towards Farnborough - coming over the rises seeing all those trees stretching out makes me feel happy. I don't really care which set of wheels is being driven. I mean, I love speed, power and engineering, I really do, but I don't see the public road system as a place to explore this. It's just not compatible.
I have a 12 focus estate titanium spec and I have to admit I have become very accustomed to auto wipers and lights. Since buying the car last year I haven't once touched the wipers, and when it starts raining it never gets old watching the car sort itself out, adjusting with rain intensity.
Heated windscreen for those three weeks of the year is a joy, and the other 49 you just forget it's there
Auto lights - as ridiculous as it sounds - I now couldn't imagine having to worry about faffing turning lights on and off. That (genuinely) seems very old fashioned to me now. Who wants to deal with this.
Cruise - obviously, I think this is a standard feature on any car in the last 10 years? So preaching to the converted. But certainly now couldn't drive as happily without it. I, too, am (mostly) a speed limit set it and forget it, watch all the fools around me do whatever they want. I do this from 30mph upwards. Again, why have to think about it?
I want to just get in the car and not really worry about anything other than being as completely relaxed as possible and the road ahead. Usually have a podcast on. This car does a pretty good job of it, considering it wasn't hugely expensive.
Future wants: radar cruise and a good auto box. Also cruise that doesn't have to be clicked back on after a gear change, but this would be moot with an auto. This will be my additional specification for the next car. My car just missed the euro ncap year of emergency breaking being standard, I would also like this. When queueing for a turn I don't even bother looking right now until I know the car in front has definitely gone. Too many near misses with overly hesitant drivers you assumed would have gone, while you creep forward looking right for your space, only to glance back forward and you're 1" from their rear bumper.
Panoramic sunroof, maybe. I thought it ridiculous, but every time I get in a car with one it feels amazing. Ok, so I’ve not done a long drive in one in the hot sun….
Most have a cover to eliminate/minimise this issue. I've never found it a problem.
What about cruising along through beautiful scenery on a nice day on a quiet road, with no time pressures?
Absolutely, and hypermiling can be fun without ever being dangerous. I feel sorry for those people that have wasted huge amounts of money on cars and then don't even enjoy them. I love driving even though I choose not to for environmental reasons, but then I enjoy the simple pleasures like holding a RWD car in perfect balance on the throttle around a corner, it just feels "right", and I appreciate that most drivers will never be able to tell the difference.
No crappy windscreen suckers.
Don't understand why anyone does this. A car costs a lot, it really doesn't cost much to get a proper mount for your phone or satnav.
https://www.brodit.com/proclip.html
plus
https://www.brodit.com/product.html?id=213005&pn=prod
and then attach your phone/satnav mount/iPod to those.
https://www.brodit.com/productList.html?brand=Apple&model=iPhone+5&pn=prod
They even sell them sized to fit phones with cases.
I just buy based on the cup holders.
I honestly have never used a cup holder. 😯
I like to have a mug of coffee held in perfect balance in my cupholder. I appreciate that most drivers will never be able to tell the difference.
Our family fleet comprises:
1 year old basic spec Polo. 1.2 Petrol, Av 55mpg
12 year basic spec Merc 3 litre diesel estate Av 35 mpg
6 year old full spec Merc V8 silly cabriolet. Av 25 mpg
Mileage wise they get the most use in that order. Our average mpg across the fleet (mileage adjusted) works out around 38.
The Polo has the best DAB/Phone interface - it has no Sat Nav as we bought it for local runs and we know our way around here.
The 6 year old Merc is gadget central but feels dated apart from the radar cruises control which is ace thou a bit unnerving sometimes.
I did 585 miles in the 12 year old Merc yesterday and didn’t miss any of the gadgets of the newer cars.
I’m fortunate in being able to drive the right car for the journey I’m doing. So ...
Polo for any trip sub 20 miles.
Old Merc for big long hauls
Newer Merc for hooning but has to be at least 20 miles to make it worth waking it up for.
Can’t say I really notice the lack of or increase of gadgets when changing between the cars but I’d rather have the right power / handling / comfort for the driving type than than the toys.
Re the RWD argument. Seriously? Driving enjoyment is only related to speed and boy racerism? What about cruising along through beautiful scenery on a nice day on a quiet road, with no time pressures? Two roads that have made me happy lately: The M6 north of Lancaster, and the M3 after Basingstoke towards Farnborough – coming over the rises seeing all those trees stretching out makes me feel happy. I don’t really care which set of wheels is being driven. I mean, I love speed, power and engineering, I really do, but I don’t see the public road system as a place to explore this. It’s just not compatible.
This is actually a large part of my preference for the RWD.... (and some form of manual...)
It's probably not unrelated to those E Class Taxi's you were in either.
The whole point is that you don't need to be pushing a car to its limits or even close to feel the difference ... it's just how the car feels as the power is transferred.
I'm not saying taking a car out of a track isn't FUN ... just that you can have fun by just appreciating the tiny differences.
What difference does it make in the real world???
Bugger all but its a chance to smile on a regular basis... it won't get you there any faster... it just makes getting there more fun and less chore. It's like having a quiet drive chain... does it make a real world difference?
For me and YMMV... a lot of the techy toys make me smile for 10 minutes...
– Integrated satnav. Yes, a phone is more up to date, but having a built in unit with a better display like a HUD or something by the instruments, that’s better imo. But the ideal option on paper would seem to be the phone integration – so you use the up-to-date Google maps but built into the dash. No crappy windscreen suckers.
I use Waze more now ... though when getting somewhere new I switch to google maps...
Waze has some funny ideas of how to get to places where the pin is off the roads but then its been within 2-3 mins of prediction on trips from Gloucestershire to Surrey however the real point is I can actually CHOOSE.
Ideally (on paper) the ideal for me is being able to connect the phone screen to the dash screen... (and obviously audio) but let the phone do the actual processing/voice recognition etc. The car is just a "dumb" receptor, microphone and touch screen...
My last car didn't have central locking, ABS or electric windows. 😯
It also never went wrong. 😎
The whole point is that you don’t need to be pushing a car to its limits or even close to feel the difference … it’s just how the car feels as the power is transferred.
Yep 🙂
it really doesn’t cost much to get a proper mount for your phone or satnav.
Those Brodit things are no better than a windscreen mount IMO.
The whole point is that you don’t need to be pushing a car to its limits or even close to feel the difference … it’s just how the car feels as the power is transferred.
ahh, the tell-tale bullshit of an mx5 bore.
My last car didn’t have central locking, ABS or electric windows.
It also never went wrong.
My GTi-6 had all of those and the first and third are what went wrong along with the alarm (pretty much the only things ever did go wrong but it was enough to make it non-economic) and traded in for less than the seats were worth.
ahh, the tell-tale bullshit of an mx5 bore.
You drive a 2.0tdi FWD euroshitbox and I claim my five pounds. 😀
so I'm right then. driving gloves too?
My GTi-6 had all of those and the first and third are what went wrong along with the alarm (pretty much the only things ever did go wrong but it was enough to make it non-economic) and traded in for less than the seats were worth.
Never drove GTi-6 but did the S16 it was based on. Pedals were all in the wrong place and it was a bit snappy on the lift off. Did not want.
so I’m right then. driving gloves too?
Right about what?
I don't drive and have never owned a Mazda.
Was I right?
the real world detectable difference between RWD and FWD - how stuck you get when you have the wrong tires on in the winter.
Was I right?
nope. apart from the euro bit.
