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Many also consider themselves as being hard done by (not you) and of average means rather than well off.
Yes, you see it here often enough. People who are inheriting whole houses, with total values well into 6 figures and sometimes even 7, on the basis of having done the square root of **** all besides being born to fairly comfortably-off parents, squealing like stuck pigs about the possibility that they might actually pay a moderate amount of tax on their massive unearned windfall.
And this is why it is Keir Starmer rather than Kemi Badenoch who should be most worried about the growth of Reform UK :
The first significant seat-by-seat analysis since the general election forecasts that, if another poll were held today, Labour would lose its majority and nearly 200 of the seats it won in July . The party, which won 411 seats in what critics called a “loveless landslide”, would lose 87 seats to the Conservatives, 67 to Reform UK and 26 to the Scottish National Party. Labour’s “red wall” gains would be almost entirely reversed, with Reform, rather than the Conservatives, as the main beneficiaries.
So according to this detailed analysis under current conditions Reform UK would win 71 seats, 67 are currently held by Labour. Badenoch should actually be grateful to Reform UK as they now pose a bigger threat to Labour than they do to anyone else.
Note in particular this :
Labour’s “red wall” gains would be almost entirely reversed
Okay the Tories wouldn't be the main beneficiaries Reform UK would be but apart from the 2019 general election the Tories have never won red wall seats, hence the name "red wall" so it helps the Tories massively if Labour don't win them.
And the fact that (as far as I am aware) every single red wall seat went to Labour on July 4th shatters the muchloved myth on here that racism goes to the very heart of how they vote.
Reform UK and Nigel Farage were every bit as racist 5 months ago as they are today. And yet on July 4th red wall voters chose Labour, not Reform UK. Nor obviously the Tories.
Red wall voters very clearly put their trust in Labour 5 months ago if they no longer feel that trust it has nothing to do with Nigel Farage, a person who they widely rejected only a few months ago.
So whose fault is it that red wall voters feel let down by Labour?
Is it still Jeremy Corbyn's fault?
If its not racism Ernie why does EVERY politician looking for votes in the red wall seats make those racist dog whistles - from Burnham in manchester mayor election to reform to the tories to labour with its anti immgatiuon pro hard brexit stance. Every single one.
And they decided five months ago that the bestest racist party was Labour??
What has made them suddenly and very quickly change their minds?
Come on TJ, you are giving the centrists the only excuse that they can think of........."blah, blah, blah, it must be because they are all racists, it can't possibly be anything to do with the fact that we take their votes for granted and then forget that they even exist".
If every politician looking for votes in the red wall seats makes those racist dog whistles it's because firstly they have nothing else to offer them and secondly because they are so discounted with them that they probably actually believe that shite. Despite the fact that voting patterns suggests otherwise.
And yet on July 4th red wall voters chose Labour, not Reform UK. Nor obviously the Tories.
Not really. If you look at it many chose none of the above and then there was a split between the tories and ukip allowing labour to get in.
Some people retained their trust in Labour but even then it rarely got up to the 2017 or before levels.
If its not racism Ernie why does EVERY politician looking for votes in the red wall seats make those racist dog whistles
Because they are buying into the right wing rags culture wars. Its easier than looking at the actual issues and addressing them for all the right wing parties.
Not really. If you look at it many chose none of the above and then there was a split between the tories and ukip allowing labour to get in.
correct. and when you get into 3 party even splits in the % of vote then a small movement gives large gains of seats. a few votes going from Tory to reform gives them a huge number of seats - even in seats held by labour previously. without labour losing significant votes
However Labours entire campaign was built around racist dog whistles to try to get votes in the red wall. so labour. tories and reform all believe that its racism that gains these votes
I know your brexiteer but anti racist views create this situation in you when you simply deny the obvious and well evidenced racism that drives this section of the vote in the red wall
Badenochs issue is that she cannot racist dog whistle as loudly as Reform, but by trying to do so she has lost the one nation tories to lib dems and labour but does not regain the racist right vote from reform so is left with only a very narrow section of the vote.
If you look at it many chose none of the above and then there was a split between the tories and ukip allowing labour to get in.
So we are now not looking at actual election results to determine how people vote? Well I guess if they don't fit in with the preferred narrative it's one way to deal with it.
You don't need a degree in politics to figure out that out of Labour, the Tories, and Reform UK, Reform UK are easily the most racist and culture war party, even a "thick" red wall voter will be able to work that out.
So if racism and culture war was the primary reason for the decision of red wall voters to vote the way they did Reform UK would have easily romped home. They didn't.
However Labours entire campaign was built around racist dog whistles to try to get votes in the red wall.
Now you are getting carried away with your hyperbole. Get a grip, Labour's entire campaign was not built around racist dog whistles, what on earth are you talking about?
If the entire campaign was built on anything it was built on "the Tories have totally failed you and we are not Tories,. so please vote for us".
It worked, hence the term "loveless landslide".
Edit :
Because they are buying into the right wing rags culture wars. Its easier than looking at the actual issues and addressing them for all the right wing parties.
No. It's because Brexit (to our eternal shame) exposed and legitimised anti-foreign bigotry which was then seized upon by populists and now all parties feel they have to pander to it.
Jeezus
I know your brexiteer but anti racist views create this situation in you when you simply deny the obvious and well evidenced racism that drives this section of the vote in the red wall
I think you are confusing me with someone else. I dont take such a simplistic view as "they are all racist" or "they are all not racist".
We can take the obvious example in some red wall areas of quite a high proportion of British Asian votes being pro brexit aka the "save our curry houses" campaign. Are they racist?
I tend towards most racists voted brexit but that doesnt mean all brexit voters are racist.
If we take the red wall a lot of it is really against "immigrants" of varying races since they are a handy target for why policies have failed pretty much everyone regardless of race. Labour buy into it for the same reason. Its that or address the actual issues.
So if racism and culture war was the primary reason for the decision of red wall voters to vote the way they did Reform UK would have easily romped home. They didn’t.
If you bothered to read what I wrote you might spot that I wasnt agreeing with tjagain. In my opinion both of your positions are rather naive. Admittedly not quite as simplistic as binners but not that much better.
Not everyone who voted for brexit is racist, they fall into one or more of the following catagories:
1. Racist
2. Stupid
3. Vested interest - James Dyson, Ress Mogg, et al.
If you bothered to read what I wrote you might spot that I wasnt agreeing with tjagain.
And if you bothered to read what I wrote you might have spotted that I wasn't accusing you of agreeing with TJ.
Admittedly not quite as simplistic as binners but not that much better.
Thanks for the patronising compliment, without binners currently on the thread there was a distinct lack of his usual patronising input. Do you fancy posting some amusing photos too?
Anyway you still haven't explained how we have gone from Labour winning every red wall seat five months ago to the latest prediction which is that they would now mostly all go to Reform.
What has changed in the last five months and why does your "none of the above" and "split between the tories and ukip allowing Labour in" no longer apparently apply?
My explanation is that the significant difference is that unlike five months ago we now have an established Labour government. TJ's explanation seems to be that its all down to them being racists. What's yours?
No. It’s because Brexit (to our eternal shame) exposed and legitimised anti-foreign bigotry which was then seized upon by populists and now all parties feel they have to pander to it.
It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that everyone who votes for bigots is a bigot by default, or indeed that bigots have no other concerns beyond their favourite flavour of bigotry.
The fact is that populists offer simple solutions to more complex issues and that can be very appealing to voters. We've spent most of the last four decades on a generally downwards trajectory, people are disenfranchised, see their prospects as limited (relative to their parents and grandparents) and worry about their kids. It's quite easy to sell people the idea that fewer people coming in might mean a bigger share (of a dwindling pie) for them, sounds like simple maths right? And if it's garnished with a bit of racism or xenophobia then so be it...
We're almost a decade past the Brexit vote, we've had almost 15 years of austerity (in one form or another) and Nige has been chipping away at the established political order for about three decades. You have a population ripe for populists now.
I look at Badenoch as a symptom of all of the above, she's learnt all the obvious lessons on how to spout the rhetoric, made herself a useful enough idiot to get to the top of her party amidst a bit of a crisis, but she's offering nothing new and verbal sparing really isn't her thing. She's a populist trying to lead a rudderless party, while there's someone better and more practised at populism sat a few rows back, and someone better and more practised at leading a party opposite her, both waiting to capitalise on her various mistakes.
I do think Farage is dangerous, he has the means to disrupt both parties and drag the nation's political discourse into his territory, where he leads, Kemi basically follows already, and Labour have fallen for it a bit already too.
dissonance - I was reffering to Ernie. with the cognitive dissonance trying to square the circle of being anti racist and a brexiteer
No. It’s because Brexit (to our eternal shame) exposed and legitimised anti-foreign bigotry which was then seized upon by populists and now all parties feel they have to pander to it.
Very much so. the labour parties pro brexit anti eu anti immigrant campaign blew loads of racist dog whistles. the whole campaign was built around this in order to get the red wall back. Brexit is a fundamentaly racist piolicy
Anyway you still haven’t explained how we have gone from Labour winning every red wall seat five months ago to the latest prediction which is that they would now mostly all go to Reform.
that has been explained several times. Without labours vote changing a shift from tory to reform gives reform loads of seats.
The current political class have lost the working class and that’s a massive problem.
Are there still Working Class people around these days?
The red wall seats are the swing states which as we know swung to tories (which wouldn’t have been believed 20 years ago) so they can therefore easily swing to Reform. Labour were given a chance as people fed up with tories but as we can see Labour have already blown it so why not give Reform a go. Not so much racist but very much stupid - what else can you call someone who votes for Reform thinking they are the solution.
Not everyone who voted for brexit is racist, they fall into one or more of the following catagories:
1. Racist
2. Stupid
3. Vested interest – James Dyson, Ress Mogg, et al.
Tell me you live in London without telling me you live in London!
A significant number of people voted for Brexit in simple desperation and a protest vote against the way Britain is run purely and simply for the betterment of people in SE England.
The moron Cameron said "Are you happy?"
And for the first time in their existence, people were able to say " No, actually, we're not" and be heard.
Kerley spot on.
We're learning nothing about fixing issues at the lost end of society.
To keep going on about the 'right' being crackers whilst not acknowledging the ridiculous mess that Labour have bought to the table is just ostrich territory. (And Labour are very much of the right anyway. It was all signposted.)
Going around in circles.
Labour have their chance and they don't offer the real solutions. All this previous talk of ideologically pure versus pragmatism as fallen on its big fat dumb arse. We have a current government that is ideologically pure in that it believes private finance solves issues when the evidence points in the opposite direction - whilst letting their state controlled central bank cripple the majority.
We simply didn't need more so-called 'sensible' right wing framing for government.
(Starmer asking the regulators for ideas of growth just shows that he's got the brain of a ill-thinking mechanical conservative economic illiterate.)
They may as well all get into bed and just be one party because the end result is the same - unless someone steps up.
A significant number of people voted for Brexit in simple desperation and a protest vote against the way Britain is run purely and simply for the betterment of people in SE England.
The moron Cameron said “Are you happy?”
And for the first time in their existence, people were able to say ” No, actually, we’re not” and be heard.
Exactly. Being against immigration does not mean racist either. Branding people who voted for Brexit as rascists and/or stupid doesnt help, and clearly misses the point, the accuser cannot comprehend that people are thinking differently to theirselves, so start the stupid/rascist points to try to explain it. Most of them are neither. Government isnt giving people what they want, it’s a protest, and an easy one to do at the ballot box.
I couldnt believe that Boris Johnson firstly, became Tory Leader, then won a large election victory. It’s just inconceivable to me that people voted that way, but he wasnt elected by rascists or stupid people, they thought he would do better then the incumbent or opposition, which is why Starmer got in, and is now struggling as it has been seen he is not much better than the Tories (so far, hopefully he’ll improve his Governance).
I was reffering to Ernie. with the cognitive dissonance trying to square the circle of being anti racist and a brexiteer
Hardly. The EU is deeply racist, the clue is in the name. And it represents a motley collection of evermore racist governments. Being both opposed to racism and the EU could not be easier. I struggle to understand how anyone can enthusiastically support an international organisation which bans non-european countries from joining whilst simultaneously claiming to be anti-racist.
But anyway well done for yet again diverting a thread onto the topic of my personal views of the EU, since Edukator has now abandoned that particular strategy the onus is on you.
but he wasnt elected by rascists or stupid people, they thought he would do better then the incumbent or opposition
So clearly gullible and stupid then, bit like the stupid who voted Brexit. Doesn't matter it was a protest vote, it was stupid to vote for Brexit unless you were amongst the tiny few who actually benefited. Those people are feeling the results of Brexit more than most, but hey it's Ok for them to double down on the stupid they caused because them feel worse off amd now vote Reform.
but he wasnt elected by rascists or stupid people, they thought he would do better then the incumbent or opposition
.
So clearly gullible and stupid then
Well they were gullible enough to believe the shite spewed out by centrists like yourself that the alternative was a racist terrorist-loving extreme left-wing supporter of Putin , I'll give you that.
And that undoubtedly helped Boris Johnson massively.
TBH Boris campaigned on the simple task of ‘Get Brexit Done’ and wasn’t one of those other people who were thwarting the will of the people to actually do it.
This line appealed to a lot of people.
You can’t call people stupid for falling for the lies, Brexits a cult and the leaders used every trick in the book and whole load of new ones with the targeting to various groups, going for Indian restaurant owners and animal lovers and persuading them that out was in their interest and the evil eu was stopping them have more workers/implement stricter animal rights, I don’t think you could make it up.
Then add in a red bus and the NHS and hordes of immigrants coming in, there was a Brexit Unicorn for every possible group.
dissonance – I was reffering to Ernie. with the cognitive dissonance trying to square the circle of being anti racist and a brexiteer
Much as I disagree with Ernie on this issue, you're talking complete cobblers. There was and is a principled socialist case for Brexit, the problem is that those voices were predictably drowned out by the anti immigrant right. For me, remaining in the EU was a pragmatic choice.
Yes I agree. the lexiteer case is available ( but nonsense IMO). the cognitive dissonance comes from being a fellow traveller with the racists who wanted brexit and ending up in a situation of supporting racists in a racist endeavour. So what do folk in this position do? Ignore / deny the racism inherent in brexit
Lie down with dogs get fleas
Morecash - you were right and I apologise for my part in derailing this thread.
The labour movement historically took responsibility for the political education of workers. Without that many people will be seduced into working against their own interests by backing the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, or even more unsavoury historical characters. I was mocked by one or two of the party cadre on here for mentioning the modern Labour Party’s dereliction in this area, but their actions (or rather inaction in this area) will likely be one part of their own electoral undoing when the next election bring us more enemies of democracy and their fellow travellers.
being a fellow traveller with the racists
What a daft comment. I have no truck with racists, no matter what the circumstances.
Nick Griffin the former leader of the BNP and well-known neo-nazis supports the Palestinians in their current struggle against a genocidal regime, do you think that my support for a Free Palestine makes me a fellow traveller with neo-nazis?
Can we get back to dealing with issues concerning Badenoch-Farage-Starmer and the wider implications and leave my opinions on the EU for another time when they might actually perhaps be relevant?
it was stupid to vote for Brexit unless you were amongst the tiny few who actually benefited. Those people are feeling the results of Brexit more than most, but hey it’s Ok for them to double down on the stupid they caused because them feel worse off
Do you always vote in your own financial best interests? I certainly don't (so call me stupid). Why expect them to?
I’m just hoping Farage carries out his threat to sue her over the membership numbers. But that driven wanting to laugh at Nigel when he loses and the real membership number is zero. It will be zero because Reform Ltd is a company of which dear Nigel owned between 50-75% of the shares according to Companies House. It’s not a membership organisation. It might well have tens or even hundred thousands of donors to the company.
I have no truck with racists
I do know this Ernie and made sure I said it.
You can’t call people stupid for falling for the lies,
Out of interest what do you call them? Gullible I suppose which is a form of stupid isn't it?
If someone, lets say Badenoch to save Binners tedious direction sign, was selling the premise that the countries problems are caused by immigration and if immigration was lower you would be better off would you believe them. If not, why not?
Out of interest what do you call them? Gullible I suppose which is a form of stupid isn’t it?
I would go for poorly informed. A major issue is none of the non hard right politicians seem interested in going these are the problems, this is how brexit it made it worse and this is how we want to fix it.
They seem to have a belief that even saying brexit failed to fix the issues it was claiming to fix cant be done which then leaves it open to farage and friends to say "it didnt work because of the remainers. Let me do the job properly". The advantage him and friends have of avoiding the post vote mess is they can use the claim their genius plan was undermined.
"utterly vile human being,"
Surely an ideal qualification for any politician?
Very few are nice people, the idea that their personal views are the right thing for the rest of us is abhorrent. Specific policies aside that is slightly worse for anyone with even a mildly socialist attitude as you can chuck hypocrisy into the mix.
Equally , unless anyone has personal and close experience with a person how can you say what they are like?
You'll never win the Brexit argument as the options were cold gravy or rain on Mondays. The opposing factions wanted totally different issues and voted accordingly. One side want to stay for financial reasons, the other wanted to leave to gain policy self control. It wasn't black or white, more fish or firewood.
Isn't it funny how the supposed carrying part of society, the left trendy types are so often the nasty ones slagging off the opinions of others?
And why do the dimwits always link immigration with racism. Proves stupidity . I want our numbers to drop. I care not a toss where you come from but we are bloody well full to the point of deterioration. I'd happily take on another 10 million if we lost 20 million.
the idea that their personal views are the right thing for the rest of us is abhorrent.
You must really struggle on STW political threads.
(remember her?)
I do, the problem is that there is so little of interest about her in the news currently, as your post amply highlights.
Have you got a link at least which gives a bit more detail with regards to what Badenoch has said today?