[Closed] MMR: the press still at it

no

the media are generally untrustworthy and full of nonsense

why anyone takes any notice of any of them is beyond me

The comments on that are also depressing...

Why is the term "Dr" still being used about this man? He neither has a PhD of is a practising medic.AFAIK

Because you don't need to have a PHD or practice medicine to be called a Dr?

Oh?

[img] [/img]

I can't believe that the Independent gave this jerk publicity. He's directly responsible for deaths due to the original MMR scare.

GMC registered or PhD to be called Dr? Yes. He's been stuck off.

This reminds me of the Ben Goldacre Bad Science quote. Gillian McKenna or to give her, her full title, Gillian McKenna.

I don't think Dr is a protected term. I think nurse is though.

I am a Dr of love. ... anyone needs a prescription page me

Goldacre has been giving the indies health editor some stick on twitter.

The beeb have given this coverage as well - it's beyond reason and belief. The really sad thing is, is that it appears that of all papers...The Daily Heil has decided not to run this story.

The man needs to go to prison IMO, I'd be very very close to kicking the **** out of wakefield if I met him in a pub.

Bwaarp +1

The conclusions by the GMC and in the BMJ and Deer's reporting have shown what a stain on humanity this man is. Every comment he makes should be accompanied by en editorial reminding everybody what a fraudster he is.

The ****ing David Icke style whack jobs are really coming out of the woodwork in the comments sections of those papers.

It was utterly irresponsible to print those articles even if they do poorly attempt to paint Wakefield in a bad light.

We need to get tough on these people, if your child is unvacinated then they shouldn't be allowed in school whether they are state or privately educated. If you want to go hippy, go full hippy and home educate them.

Anyone who doesn't get their child vaccinated for any reason other than medical grounds should also pay an increased tax rate to cover the costs of dealing with lowered or non-existent herd immunity and the costs of compensating those people who are infected by measles etc because they can't have the jab on health grounds.

The same ****ing left wing middle class hippies who are usually the types to not have their children vaccinated tend like to bang on about how we all live in this world together. Well, suck it up....your individual liberties shouldn't extend to infecting the rest of us.

The man needs to go to prison IMO

Why should the buck stop with the patsy who took the money to fake test result. He was being paid pretty handsomely to create false data to sway a court case. But the lawyers who paid him have left him swinging and somehow seem to be beyond scrutiny themselves.

He could have made that article an awful lot shorter and more accurate:

In the wake of further media distortion, misrepresentation, and ignorance in relation to the measles outbreak in Wales, it is important to clarify some key facts. It's all my fault

Fixed that for him

The beeb have given this coverage as well

Well to be fair, they only appear to have mentioned he's published a statement on his dodgy website, not actually printed his ramblings.

The same **** left wing middle class hippies who are usually the types to not have their children vaccinated tend like to bang on about how we all live in this world together. Well, suck it up....your individual liberties shouldn't extend to infecting the rest of us.

You seem to have missed the important point, it's Swansea and the Valleys affected by the recent outbeak. Middle class doesn't make it that far up the M4. It's not educated people making informed decisions, it's people who trust the media and people with "Dr" in their name implicitly.

It's not educated people making informed decisions, it's people who trust the media and people with "Dr" in their name implicitly.

We need to get tough on these people, if your child is unvacinated then they shouldn't be allowed in school whether they are state or privately educated. If you want to go hippy, go full hippy and home educate them.

😯
wow! So you think parents should be forced by the state to have their children vaccinated?

wow! So you think parents should be forced by the state to have their children vaccinated?

So you think children who cannot be vaccinated for various medical reasons should be forced to be placed at risk by those who have not had them.

You are denying them their choice to go to school in a healthy environment, the burden should instead fall on those who CHOOSE not to vaccinate your children. It's fine to make the choice, just find another way of educating your tykes. Maybe send them to a hippy brainwashing co-operative school.... perhaps a Steiner school?

So you think children who cannot be vaccinated for various medical reasons should be forced to be placed at risk by those who have not had them.

So you think that parents hold responsibilities for other peoples children as well as their own.

So you think that parents hold responsibilities for other peoples children as well as their own.

Yes, we live in a society don't we?

If we didn't and we weren't bound to responsibility to society, I could just go round to your house and enact my version of rampant individualism with a shotgun to protect my children.

Yes, we live in a society don't we?

Otherwise I could just go round to your house and enact my version of rampant individualism with a shotgun to protect my children.

Yes we live in a society, one that allows free will and individualism.
Of course shooting me would be a criminal act, not vaccinating children is not a criminal act.
Would you prefer that it was?

restless - Member

So you think that parents hold responsibilities for other peoples children as well as their own.

I think that people hold responsibility for the results of their own actions. You're not talking about "holding responsibility", you're talking about "not putting at risk".

Of course shooting me would be a criminal act, not vaccinating children is not a criminal act.
Would you prefer that it was?

Yup.

In fact I have political contacts within parliament anyway, so when this terms over I'll be seeing if I can do some lobbying.

wow! So you think parents should be forced by the state to have their children vaccinated?

Yes. The same way we "force" parents to educate their children, or care for their health.

Of course shooting me would be a criminal act, not vaccinating children is not a criminal act.
Would you prefer that it was?

Yup.

Such an emotive subject often gives polarised responses.
Yours is a fine example.

Such an emotive subject often gives polarised responses.
Yours is a fine example.

It's a yes/no question, it's hard not to be "polarised".

Personally I hope people like you restless are one day prosecuted in the same way parents are who allow their children to die through exposure to elements etc.

Finally, the authors of articles that say anything that is not backed up by science in reputable journals in a fashion that attempts to deny current scientific consensus in regards to something in which peoples lives are held in the balance should be prosecuted with legislation akin to the ones Germany has for Holocaust Denial.

****ing had enough of it, there's a time and place for free speech - placing others at risk with groundless rumours is not it.

Personally I hope people like you restless are one day prosecuted in the same way parents are who allow their children to die through exposure to elements etc.

That is very harsh.
Prosecuted for what exactly?
For questioning peoples' views on vaccination!

Personally I hope people like you restless are one day prosecuted in the same way parents are who allow their children to die through exposure to elements etc.

I think you are possibly reading more than Restless is writing

For questioning peoples' views on vaccination!

No, for child abuse where it can be proven.

But yes, I'd also be partial to some sort of German "Holocaust Denial" style law.

Wakefield and Melanie Phillips et al should all be banged up, as should those who pedal groundless blogs on the matter. The plebs need putting in their places.

it's people who trust the media and people with "Dr" in their name implicitly.

round our way, the first time round, it was just folk who didn't trust authority full stop.. they were many and they came from all walks of life..

there was a lot of that in the 90s

I've just been trying to unravel the alleged motive behind the original fraud this evening but it all seems rather unclear, other than the doctor fella was being paid some money by some lawyers..

can anyone give a summary of what went on..?

Mumps, measles and rubella - that's what MMR stands for isn't it? And rubella is measles when you get it as an adult - is that right?

I had mumps and measles as a child. And chickenpox. In fact, we used to have measles parties and chickenpox parties too - to make sure we got the diseases.

I don't get why you should jab children against these things, it was quite routine when I was a child.

I'm taking the dogs out now, so I'll read the answer to my question in an hour when I get back.

bwaarp in 'being just as hysterical as the Daily Mail' shocker.

Because the serious complication rates of any of those diseases are much muuuuuuuch higher than that of the jab.

If there was no overall health benefit to them, they would never be recommended. Eg the same reason the smallpox vaccine is no longer distributed, the risks outweigh the benefits as the disease doesn't exist in the UK outside of *possibly* Porton Down.

P.S. Rubella and Measles are two different diseases.

Because the serious complication rates of any of those diseases are much muuuuuuuch higher than that of the jab.

If there was no overall health benefit to them, they would never be recommended. Eg the same reason the smallpox vaccine is no longer distributed, the risks outweigh the benefits as the disease doesn't exist in the UK outside of Porton Down.

The way that people believe without question what they are told is what worries me.
How do you know vaccines are safe? Why does the government have a vaccine damage payment fund if there is no risk?

For questioning peoples' views on vaccination!

No, for child endangerment where it can be proven

That would be child endangerment how?
By assuming I have unvaccinated children? Or by questioning your opinions.

The way that people believe without question what they are told is what worries me.
How do you know vaccines are safe? Why does the government have a vaccine damage payment fund if there is no risk?

They have risks, all drugs and medical procedures have risks. The fact that some governments have vaccine payment funds simply demonstrates that those governments care about the individuals who do get side effects.

I know the vaccines are safer than the diseases because hundreds of doctors and scientists around the world independent of the original studies performed by the pharmaceutical companies... carry out their own studies. These are published to major/minor journals or left unpublished but often accessible to researchers who can then perform a meta-analysis which for lay men effectively finds the average outcome of all the studies.

I don't get why you should jab children against these things, it was quite routine when I was a child

as were blindness, severe brain damage and death, they were all routine as well. When you think back to those old Giles cartoons of hospitals the cast of characters were alway the elderly, someone with their arm or leg in plaster (or their toe stuck in a tap) and.... a child with spots and a thermometer. Measles is typically mild but commonly severe enough to hopitalise children and the long term damage can be gruesome. Severe and deadly effects of the illness are about 1 in 1000 which is a horribly high level risk for a contagious disease. In the scale of outbreak in south wales a death, severe disablement or persistent vegetive state is statistically due.

I don't think you can go so far as to legal compulsion to vaccinate, but there is a compulsion for the people who inform your choices to inform them fully and honestly. Clear, honest, fair information about the risk of immunisation and the risks of not immunising, but that has been swamped in a media where its difficult to pick out the nuggets of fact in a garbage heap of opinion and PR.

[img] [/img]

I think we are missing the point here. Are u less likely to give your kids the mmr, if you own a 29 er...

I think the mtber demographic less likely to give their children the MMR jab are those with fixie fat bikes

Mac can we realistically assume that people can filter out the crap in the media when their reasoning capability is effectively

Niche denial, I can buy that.

And rubella is measles when you get it as an adult - is that right?

(just to confuse things, measles is AKA rube[b]O[/b]la but is not rubella)

I've just been trying to unravel the alleged motive behind the original fraud this evening but it all seems rather unclear, other than the doctor fella was being paid some money by some lawyers..

From what I recall Wakefeild was being paid by lawyers who were trying to bring a case on behalf of children who developed autism (after the MMR jab) & did not declare that as an interest when he published his 'findings' . I think it was also alleged that Wakefield planned a rival vaccine that he had patented on the basis that MMR had been shown to prove autism. The BMJ also said there was clear evidence that he fabricated data to prove his case. Wiki is your friend.

just to confuse things, measles is AKA rubeOla but is not rubella

Rubella is also know as German Measles which compounds the confusion. Its a mild enough disease in most cases but dangerous to expectant mothers. In our day only teenage girls were given a Rubella jab, but now everyone gets immunised so that rather than women be defended against the disease its deemed wiser for there to be no disease in the population to be at risk from.

K o 9 - are you not miss-remembering your Measles parties for Chicken Pox parties?

its deemed wiser for there to be no disease in the population to be at risk from

Restless when you say things like

How do you know vaccines are safe?

The biggest "LOLZ" of the whole saga is this forrest plot

[img] [/img]

If you don't get how to interpret it, you should just shut up and listen to the advice of your doctor.

Karin, it's pretty clear why

Complications with measles are
relatively common, ranging from the
relatively mild and less serious ones
like diarrhea to more serious ones such
as pneumonia , otitis media , acute
encephalitis (rarely SSPE -- subacute
sclerosing panencephalitis), and corneal
ulceration (leading to corneal scarring ).
Complications are usually more severe
in adults who catch the virus.
Between the years 1987 and 2000, the
case fatality rate across the United
States was three measles-attributable
deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%. [5] In
underdeveloped nations with high rates
of malnutrition and poor healthcare,
fatality rates have been as high as 28%.

If you don't get how to interpret it, you should just shut up and listen to the advice of your doctor.

My doctor tells me to look stuff up on the internet. Which is handy as the first link google brought up told me the not to take the tablets he'd prescribed with tap water as 'tap water is a carcinogen'. So I take advice from my GP with a pinch of salt (unless it turns out that also causes cancer) 🙂

Maccruiskeen - I may well be mis-remembering. However, I don't remember any fear around measles/german measles/mumps, and I don't recall any contemporaries having lasting side effects from the diseases. But I did change school 9 times so, while my sample is bigger, I wasn't around for very long to witness results!

Hospital inhabitants are exactly the same nowadays as those you list - except now of course hospitals are also home to mrsa and norovirus. 🙂

There's a lot of suspicion around government proclamations, eg thalidomide was supposed to be safe. On the other hand, you don't see people in leg-irons these days (from polio) which is a good thing.

There's a lot of suspicion around government proclamations, eg thalidomide was supposed to be safe

Thalidomide was a strong driver for developing better testing and monitoring of drugs - you could see it as a good example of the "system" in a lot of ways

eg thalidomide was supposed to be safe.

Thalidomide is also still in use today in the treatment of cancers and HIV, it was only harmful in very specific circumstances.

Karinofnine - Member

I had mumps and measles as a child. And chickenpox. In fact, we used to have measles parties and chickenpox parties too - to make sure we got the diseases.

I'm having an AIDS party tomorrow, want to come?

If you don't get how to interpret it

I'm not sure if I know how to interpret it - is the first part of the test to work out what the title of the graph is and what exactly the data points are from?

"We need to get tough on these people, if your child is unvacinated then they shouldn't be allowed in school whether they are state or privately educated. If you want to go hippy, go full hippy and home educate them."

wow! So you think parents should be forced by the state to have their children vaccinated?

People in Australia appear to cope with such levels of state control over their lives
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/School_Entry_Immunisation_Certificate

If you don't get how to interpret it, you should just shut up and listen to the advice of your doctor.

Unfortunately interpreting data is of little effect if you can't articulate it. Granted the medical profession had the obstacles created by a lazy and divisive press, a corrupt medic and his rich sponsors, and herds of bandwagon jumping messiah complex alternative medicinal gurus..... but the medical profession is bigger than all of that and failed to articulate the facts clearly and consistently and persistly enough to counter the truck-loads of attractive bullshit.

Unfortunately interpreting data is of little effect if you can't articulate it. Granted the medical profession had the obstacles created by a lazy and divisive press, a corrupt medic and his rich sponsors, and herds of bandwagon jumping messiah complex alternative medicinal gurus..... but the medical profession is bigger than all of that and failed to articulate the facts clearly and consistently and persistly enough to counter the truck-loads of attractive bullshit.

Good point, I'll explain the graph to people later.

I've got to go and escort my missus back home as it's dark.

With a little googling I've worked out that I did know how to interpret it after all, but you can't really expect to say "here's an incomplete set of information, if you can't make a conclusion based on that then you're too thick to make your own mind up".

I suspect it might have been more useful to ask people if they understood http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134 (I'd be so, so interested to hear what AW makes of it).

I'm having an AIDS party tomorrow, want to come?

I believe they're known as 'poz parties' 😯

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/poz-parties-bring-hiv-into-the-21st-century-26213697.html

Sorry Aracer, you have a fair point.....Wakefield just really....really winds my shit up more than anyone I know.

I do think science has to be made more readily understood by the public so that we can convince them of what we do, this could start with news papers appointing health correspondants that have a minimum of a 2:1 in a scientific discipline and who demonstrate an aptitude for making things easy to understand.

I don't have the patience for that and I suppose my outraged Jeremy Clarkson way of making my point doesn't help.

[url= http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/facts-in-case-of-dr-andrew-wakefield.html?m=1 ]This[/url] explains the whole story quite well, with pictures and everything. And today, knowing all this, the cretins at the independent still tried to bring back the glory days of 1998.

I had measles for the second time (first as a nipper being a child of the 60's)about 10 years ago in my mid getting onto late 30's, ****ing agony one of the most terrifying periods of my life. Wouldn't wish a nasty case of it on anyone and hopefully all of this media attention will make parents do the right thing.

this could start with news papers appointing health correspondants that have a minimum of a 2:1 in a scientific discipline and who demonstrate an aptitude for making things easy to understand.

Unfortunately thats naive. Thats not how papers work. It doesn't matter whether the reporter has a nobel prize or has been hired on the strength of their haircut. Editors have decided what the story is going to be [i]before[/i] the reporter starts to investigate it. If as a reporter you look into as story and the facts don't fit the headline then your options are to either make them fit or to have the story given to someone younger, cheaper, keener and more sycophantic than you who will make it fit. That can only happen so many times before your desk looks very empty.

Thats assuming that the paper does any work at all, [url= http://72point.com ]a very large proportion of the word count in papers is marketing passed off as journalism,[/url] the stories arrive from PR agencies ready written for journalists to print without having to read, edit or understand them

a very large proportion of the word count in papers is marketing passed off as journalism, the stories arrive from PR agencies ready written for journalists to print without having to read, edit or understand them

Always something worth bearing in mind if you're after some publicity - write a story which is pretty much ready for publication, and you stand a good chance of getting it published by most lazy journalists.

Always something worth bearing in mind if you're after some publicity - write a story which is pretty much ready for publication, and you stand a good chance of getting it published by most lazy journalists.

An friend of mine used to run a theatre and is also an ex-journalist. She used to be able to get a story in the local paper, and usually on the front page, almost much every week just by writing the thing up pretty much in its entirety. One time she managed to get the same story, with the same photo, on the front page of the same paper just two weeks apart - just to prove that the 'journalists' were neither reading her press releases [i]or[/i] reading their own newspaper.

killed by the daily mail?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22215185