I’m getting to the point of struggling to remain civil with acquaintances/colleagues and the odd friend, because the politics of today is revealing the worst in people.
How do you cope with even wanting to engage with people who come up with what in my opinion are totally illogical/xenophobic or sometimes just blatantly wrong statements like (all real examples):
“We’ll send all the EU citizens home and train up British people to do the jobs”
“I think any MP who supports remain should never be allowed to enter parliament again”
“Escape from the evil EU”
“I don’t pay any attention to economic forecasts by expert bodies because they are just a view on what might happen”
In response to ask for links to benefits of no-deal “Just google world's fastest growing economies and EU Army”
“I want to be free of EU because all the other countries could gang up against the UK and force a law we haven’t voted for” (can’t give any examples of where this has happened”
“I voted leave just for a change”
“I won’t vote Labour because they use my taxes to pay for scroungers”
“I just believe....”
Learn to change the subject fast.
New friends.
Depends on how extreme their position is and whether they are willing to have a sensible discussion.
Some of those statements are pretty much a lost cause but others not so much.
It's the dawning realisation that the general population are, on the whole, deeply unpleasant people.
New Friends
It’s the dawning realisation that the general population are, on the whole, deeply unpleasant people.
While it might look that way from Facebook comments, etc. I suspect the ignorant dickhead minority's voices are being amplified - while the semi-ignorant not-really-dickhead majority might just quietly vote the other way if there was a second referendum.
I left the country.
In many of these cases I have little choice but to encounter them - example going out for Mrs’ friends birthday on Saturday with Brexiteer “other halves”....not looking forward to it already.
These seemed like perfectly reasonable people until the subject of Brexit arose.
New friends
This
going out for Mrs’ friends birthday on Saturday with Brexiteer “other halves”
Just tell them they are wrong, stay calm and let them get shouty if they are wrong
To be honest, I think you're best off adhering to the old adage to never discuss politics or religion in polite company.
Where that's not possible, you have to accept that you may have a parting of views, and that the friendship may or may not be strong enough to weather that.
I also think if you're talking about your wife's friends and their partners, you don't need to really do much more than be generally polite -- these people don't have to be *your* best mates, and there's no real need to be calling them out on opinions you disagree with. Especially on the topic of Brexit: you won't be persuading anyone of anything at this point, so better just to nod, smile, and change the topic to something less divisive IMO.
A lesson I learned far too late in life is that life is too short to spend it in the company of arseholes.
And yet here you are, Cougar.
Point and laugh.
To be honest, I think you’re best off adhering to the old adage to never discuss politics or religion in polite company.
In reality do this unless they become extreme then tell them to do one.
Sounds like you're the problem to me. I have a good number of debates with mates with differing political views. We'll argue tooth and nail over a beer or two, but eventually the subject will change and it's all good mature debate and we move on to more important topics of discussion. If you can't stand the fact that your mates might have different views and think your opinions are better or somehow worth more than theirs then I suggest you look within yourself for the root cause of the issue.
You can of course change your friends for those with the same opinions, but the essence of politics is to expose yourself to differing views and opinions so you can continually test and question your own opinions and learn something form other people. But if you think you're above all that and have it all worked out then you probably need to step away from politics all together.
There is nowt more important in life that friends. If you're willing to ditch them over a few minor squabbles over politics then you'll probably find yourself at some point in the future regretting it. Politics moves on. Good mates don't.
And yet here you are, Cougar.
Hah, good point.
it’s all good mature debate and we move on to more important topics of discussion
not everyone is capable of this
I just don't talk about brexit any more. I know one friend who voted leave, she has her reasons and to be honest they are as valid as my remain reasons really. I don't know what her husband (my mate) voted and dont care. I suspect a couple of other mates voted leave but I have never asked them.
Life's to short, what's gonna happen is gonna happen, if they were friends before brexit there must have been a reason for it, concentrate on that...
Sounds like you’re the problem to me. I have a good number of debates with mates with differing political views.
This. If you can't discuss/argue about politics and still be mates there's something seriously wrong. People say stupid stuff for all sorts of reasons. With brexit we all know the propaganda that is out there and how it influences people. Most people don't pay any attention to the detail other than what they read in the paper or see on facebook, and probably don't care enough about it to seriously think about it. Just because you might think something is a massively important issue many others may not.
All you can do is calmly and logically explain why you think they're wrong. Have you tried asking them some simple questions as to why they think that way? I find that with some simple and friendly questioning, they will admit that they don't know enough one way or the other. At that point you can invite them to go away and properly inform themselves.
Tell them their stupid and we should have another vote because we don’t like the result. OR better yet don’t discuss it or go in the first place.
My friends wife has alerted me to the fact that white people now have to give up bus seats to black people.
If I am somewhere I have to be polite I say I do not want to discuss a highly decisive subjectf the conversation continues I state that opinions are like arseholes. If it continues further I tell them what they are saying is bullshit unless they present some evidence so either change the subject or shut up.
This method works for me.
There is nowt more important in life that friends. If you’re willing to ditch them over a few minor squabbles over politics then you’ll probably find yourself at some point in the future regretting it. Politics moves on. Good mates don’t.
seeing someone express ignorance & xenophobia is going to effect how you think of them & your attitude toward them
Tell them their stupid
People still discuss Brexit in public? - the mind boggles..
Tell them about mtb wheel sizes and axle standards .
It’s the dawning realisation that the general population are, on the whole, deeply unpleasant people.
They actually aren't, really. They just can't identify with the people they consider to be 'them'.
If for example a friend fell on hard times, and lost his flat and was facing life on the street etc - most people would be concerned and try to help. At the very least they would listen and sympathise, they would take their side against the nasty authorities or whoever had precipitated the problem, and they are likely to defend that person.
However, when it's someone they don't know, they think the worst of that person. So they say 'well it's all their own fault' and then they get annoyed when they get handouts when things have gone wrong and it's their own fault.
We all view things completely differently when it's someone you know and care about - even when the situation is exactly the same. The same mistakes in life are not looked on sympathetically if it's someone you don't know compared with someone you do. This is how we end up with people being friends with immigrants, but still complaining about immigrants: 'Oh not you, you're alright, it's THEM that are the problem'.
This is why the real differentiator between the left and the right is where you draw the boundary between 'us' and 'them'.
I envy you and Brexit, we have HK and China, at least you get a chance to discuss it freely and to vote on it.
Good point stewartc.
We need to appreciate what we have
There is nowt more important in life that friends
This just such a load of utter horse54it.
You must live in a 1st world bubble where actual, very bad things only happen on the front page of the Guardian.
In terms of personal wellbeing, the person you are flaming may actually have an excellent point.
Studies have shown that as Lefties become more educated- they get less tolerant of other views and close ranks to spend more time with those who share their own opinions.
Which is ironic as most of these sorts look down on everyone else as being xenophobic bigots 🙄
If you can’t have a calm and rational debate with someone- no matter how entrenched their opposing view, then it likely means the fault lies with you and your superiority complex.
Basically- get out of your cosy bubble and practice some empathy.
The people I've found myself disagreeing with most vehemently aren't the obvious ones who I'd have originally thought - UKIP voting racists - but the couple of Lexiteers I know
Both are pleasent, intelligent, well-educated and open-minded blokes who are left-leaning on everything else, yet are as vehemently anti-EU as Farage himself.
I've had plenty of discussions with them and I find their opinions absolutely incomprehensible. They buy into the full thing about the EU being some grand capitalist conspiracy to oppress the workers. They're also both now at the point where they don't seem to care what form Brexit takes, no matter how right wing, as long as we 'just get out!'
Mad!
If you can’t have a calm and rational debate with someone
But you can’t have any type of rational discussion who says irrational things like “there has been no new information since the vote. The deal and the analysis of the deal/no-deal is not new information because I don’t believe in forecasts or expert analysis. I just believe it will be better”.
Sometimes you have to accept that people have different views to you, unless they're talking about genocide or the like as a 'solution' I can tolerate most things.
My Wife is a socialist, I'm more of a Democratic Socialist (or New Labour Tory Scum to some). We vote differently most elections, it doesn't cause any upset at home, or views are largely compatible, but she's an NHS worker and I'm a former Banker with an interest in Economics.
At least 1 of my Friend's is a 'kipper or maybe Brexit Party voter now. Sadly it's his raging depression that makes him want to tear everything down rather than Xenophobia as such.
1 of my friends seems to quite likes Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Not because he's a racist, but he hates 'the man' and "Tommy" says it "as it is".
1 of my friends never talks about politics, but is real old-money Landed Gentry.
1 of my friends is a Eurosceptic Tory and spouts absolute fiction and half truths as justification.
1 of my friends is a 'pragmatic' Tory who wants Brexit done so we can move on, but by 'done' he means the May/BJ deal because it's the quickest route to resolution.
I'm happy to have a debate about things if they want, but I won't argue, most of the time. It gets filed along side Religion as subjects not suitable for polite conversations 😉
But you can’t have any type of rational discussion who says irrational things like “there has been no new information since the vote. The deal and the analysis of the deal/no-deal is not new information because I don’t believe in forecasts or expert analysis. I just believe it will be better”.
Depends how you define better 😉
If you want to leave the EU at any cost then it patently will be better. But if you lack the ability to empathise with someone who isn’t concerned about taking their handbag dog skiing with them or making sure their Barista has the correct authentic accent then it obviously won’t be...
Again- lack of empathy on your part is the root cause.
Again- lack of empathy on your part is the root cause.
I’m not sure empathy is the right word. This isn’t just about personal opinion, for example, why they like mountain biking and won’t touch a road bike but I like both.
It’s more about the complete lack of method in their opinion....getting on in some cases for conspiracy theory proportions. Given that it affects my and my children’s future, it’s much more important than what type of biking you like.
Both are pleasent, intelligent, well-educated and open-minded blokes who are left-leaning on everything else, yet are as vehemently anti-EU as Farage himself.
I’ve had plenty of discussions with them and I find their opinions absolutely incomprehensible. They buy into the full thing about the EU being some grand capitalist conspiracy to oppress the workers. They’re also both now at the point where they don’t seem to care what form Brexit takes, no matter how right wing, as long as we ‘just get out!’
Mad!
Brexit has often been thought of as a left v right argument because it fits in neatly with our two-party Labour v Tories view of things, but it's really not.
A lot of people are fundamentally opposed to Globalisation and the EU is a sort of continent-isation. Part of Globalisation means that high skilled work goes to the richer more educated areas, and the lower skilled work goes to the poorer areas with lower costs of living. There is a cost to this, whilst the UK and our EU partners have all become wealthier over-all as part of the EU it's left large numbers of people behind.
The UK's role in the EU and the rest of the world is Financial Service, 'the city' provides a huge part of our GDP which in turn makes the UK a wealthy country, it doesn't matter if we're part of the € or keep the £, it would be inefficient to open a large scale, low skilled workplace in the UK instead of say Bulgaria which has a much lower cost of living and lower wages as such.
The EU understands all this so they invest in redevelop in areas who's industries have been damaged by our form of Globalisation which should, in the long term provide opportunities for people who live there to establish themselves in the 'right' industry for their country/area because only a tiny number of people will use their freedom of movement to move from say Bridgend when Ford leaves to Romainia. It's like a sort of Economic Terraforming and takes decades sometimes.
That's why Corbyn was always anti-EU (prior to becoming leader) at the same time as someone like JRM. Corbyn wants to reverse Globalisation to have a more mixed economy in the UK, JRM wants to extend it past the EU to have a more focused London based economy. They actually both have their merits, but they're ideological ones, the people who want it are generally the wealthier, older people who can weather the long years of economic pain to get there. Personally I don't want to give up my cushy office job to dig coal, or to join the dole queue when our entire GDP is created by a few hundred suits in 'the city'.
One of my closest mates growing up has turned into some sort of hard right Breitbart sharing harpie who opines that "Britain is full" but who has birthed four kids. She owns her own home, holidays six days a year despite being the bar manager at a rugby club and is always quick to lecture about millenials spending their money on avocado toast which is why they can't buy houses.
She married and subsequently divorced an estate agent. It's fairly obvious that maintenance provides for the majority of her disposable income. Oh and she had the cheek to tell me that "doctors don't know everything" when I expressed concern about my stepson's insulin supply post Brexit.
She used to be alight, once.
Studies have shown that as Lefties become more educated
My irony meter is now broken, you owe me a new one. Politeness costs you nothing and that was not polite.
It’s more about the complete lack of method in their opinion….getting on in some cases for conspiracy theory proportions.
But that’s the whole point of an opinion. Your inability to cope with another world view shows a complete lack of tolerance that I doubt you’d extend to those who practice religion for example.
If their arguments are so flawed then pragmatically dismantle them. If they decline to agree then agree to disagree and move on to other topics.
I personally would never let an opinion on Brexit sway my friendship. I can totally see why remain makes sense to people from different backgrounds than me.
But if a mate is a sound person, despite being wrong over Brexit, then I’m not going let that ruin the rest of our relationship 😉
Sounds like you’re the problem to me. I have a good number of debates with mates with differing political views.
This. If you can’t discuss/argue about politics and still be mates there’s something seriously wrong.
Not that.
Why waste your time with people you despise? Seems like an awful waste of time IMO.
Deeply ingrained Brexiteers are some of the most unpleasant people living. Seems pointless talking to them, even being in the same room as them.
I’d suggest if you have to go, which of course you don’t, then stay well clear of them and if you get caught up in a conversation with them and they turn the topic to any racist or Brexit related conversation simply get up and walk off.
Boorish people are just boorish and boring, you’ve nothing in common and making polite conversation will result in boorish bigoted one-liners.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Life is afterall too short to “mix” with em’</span>
IMO
But why should you despise someone who has a different opinion?
Why do the left believe everyone should think the same?
If someone is kind, funny, generous, interesting and into the same things as me, why should their stance on Brexit mean I could no longer tolerate them?
I thought Brexiteers were supposed to be the closed minded bigots 🤷🏻♂️
There is just nothing in common is there, and why listen to the same old narrow minded arguments.
You can't educate nor argue with them, they're just ingrained in their own self importance.
Seems pointless to me. Surround yourself with like minded people, it'll make your life far happier.
I'm happy to have stopped talking to a couple of old sailing mates because of their stance on the subject, I once thought them rational people but once the brexit topic came up they turned all racist and narrow minded. Glad I found out TBH, thats the true test of friendship if you 've got nothing in common no need to waste time with them.
I suppose in some ways I've picked up intolerance from them, but instead of it being based on race/creed/colour or little garland attitude it's more about rational intelligence and being able to work together for a common good for all.. I realise that my beliefs don't agree with theirs and I won't support them or listen to em'.
I just wait until the topic pops up and realise that the conversations ended and walk off.
I've happily not attended family get to aethers because of it and they all know the reasons why I've not attended. Granted the choice is mine alone on this, because I've been invited but turned it down.
I just think that this topic has deeper more sinister connotations than simply voting for brexit. And I don't like it.
So yeah, my attitude is 🤷♂️ also.
Why waste your time with people you despise? Seems like an awful waste of time IMO.
I'd not waste time with people I despise, you'd be crazy to do so out of choice. But if you despise someone purely because of their opinions over Brexit and politics........ man you've lost your way badly somewhere.
There is a stunning amount of intolerant comments in this thread about a position that adopts a sharing caring love in with Europe as being the correct answer
How about sharing & caring for your relative/friend/neighbour first? Life's challenge is not to love those who love you but more, to love those who you don't like...
You can’t educate nor argue with them, they’re just ingrained in their own self importance.
Pot, kettle, black.
But why should you despise someone who has a different opinion?
Because all opinions are not equal. It's not like "tolerating" your mate supporting City when you're a United fan.
If someone is of the opinion that "all the ****s should **** off back where they came from" or "all the faggots should die of AIDS," are these opinions that should be respected and we should simply just agree to disagree?
Why do the left believe everyone should think the same?
They don't. Next question?
OP,
I’m getting to the point of struggling to remain civil with acquaintances/colleagues and the odd friend, because the politics of today is revealing the worst in people.
Are you saying that your colleagues, who are as qualified as you are at doing their jobs probably same rank/level whatever, are illogical? 😆
I am surrounded by remainers at work which is opposite to your case but I never discuss politics with them.
If someone is of the opinion that “all the ****s should **** off back where they came from” or “all the faggots should die of AIDS,” are these opinions that should be respected and we should simply just agree to disagree?
How often do you actually meet people with views like that ? I kow hundreds of people and even if some thought that they'd never exprese those opinions publicly. Your just using extreme examples to try and illustrate your point. The topic is friendship and politics, I can't belive anyone on here would be friends in the first place with someone who though "all faggots should die of aids" How about someone who voted leave because the believed rightly or wrongly their kids couldn't get into the local primary because it was over subscribed due to imigrants from the EU ? Are they scum as well.
Are you saying that your colleagues, who are as qualified as you are at doing their jobs probably same rank/level whatever, are illogical?
Yes....”They could gang up on the UK and pass a law we didn’t vote for”
“I don’t want people I haven’t elected making my laws”
“Can you give any examples of an EU law being enforced that our MEPs didn’t vote for?”
......silence.....
“What will you do if people in Scotland and Cornwall enforce a law on you in Yorksire”
....silence....
This is from someone whose job involves risk management.....
why listen to the same old narrow minded arguments.
You can’t educate nor argue with them, they’re just ingrained in their own self importance.
Art.
Because all opinions are not equal. It’s not like “tolerating” your mate supporting City when you’re a United fan.
If someone is of the opinion that “all the ****s should **** off back where they came from” or “all the faggots should die of AIDS,” are these opinions that should be respected and we should simply just agree to disagree?
They are not comparable examples. As you well know.
Wanting to leave a trading bloc does not equate to holding those kind of extreme views.
But as you ask- no, I wouldn’t disassociate myself with someone who said those things. It would knock the shine off for sure but it wouldn’t necessarily undermine all the other good things about them.
I certainly wouldn’t tie personal anger management issues and feelings of despair in to the fact that some old codger who I share a beer with in the pub is stuck in the 1950’s.
In fact, I’d enjoy robustly challenging them on their unacceptable views and trying to make them a better human being. That’s what a functioning society should be capable of doing.
They don’t. Next question?
They do consistently on a huge range of topics. It’s not enough for them to hold a view point and rigorously defend it in good humour. No- they have to vilify their opponents and stamp their feet to try and make everyone think and act like them.
I guess when you rely on the herd for safety, nobody wants to stand next to the black sheep 😉
It’s also a bit of a Nazi trait- “ themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate other people and purge society of supposed inferior elements.” Again leading to irony overdrive 🤣
I totally sympathise with the op. When you come to realise that family and friends who previously seemed pretty average are actually racists, xenophobes or just incredibly selfish it isn't really a case of sucking it up.
My dad is quite happy for us to crash out with no deal because he simply hates Europeans. No explanation is given. He simply couldn't wait to vote out and seems delighted at the possibility of the worst possible outcome. I do my best to stay off the subject but he seems to revel in the fact that his 2 children, one of whom is married to a "foreigner", voted to remain and loves to bring the subject up.
My inlaws, 2 of the best grandparents you could imagine, are froth at the mouth leavers, again with very little explanation as to why. I won't touch the subject with them now.
I've got friends who voted leave. I've never spoken with them about it. I just don't want to know their reasons.
Just by saying 'They' and meaning all of those people shows intolerance, just like all the racists and homophobes.
I'm as staunch a remainer as the next lefty snowflake.... but even I know that not all brexiteers are racist. If you think 'they' are you're letting the right wing wackos like Farage win!
It's very easy to de-friend people with whom you disagree on political matters. I think this is slightly dangerous, as you end up in your own little bubble where everyone agrees and nothing is challenged.
My business partner and I have opposite views on Brexit, but we respect each other's standpoint. I admit that this would be harder for me if his stance was based on xenophobia or suchlike, but it isn't.
JP
How often do you actually meet people with views like that ?
Not very often at all, not least because I disassociated myself from people like that decades ago. It absolutely does happen though, racism especially, and this nonsense has drawn them out of the woodwork and empowered them. I can give you a few examples if you think I'm making this up.
Your just using extreme examples to try and illustrate your point.
Correct. Did it work, or am I still in the "intolerant" camp?
How about someone who voted leave because the believed rightly or wrongly their kids couldn’t get into the local primary because it was over subscribed due to imigrants from the EU ? Are they scum as well.
If they believed it "rightly or wrongly" and steadfastly refuse to revise their opinion when it's later demonstrated that it was, in fact, "wrongly," then they're probably heading in that direction. I wouldn't go as far as to say "scum," though that's your choice of words not mine.
I left the country.
So did I. Funnily enough, this self important, 'why can't the world be more like us' attitude isn't peculiar to the English xenophobes. It's just that the English xenophobes tend to bring up things like WW2 and 'was colonialism really such a bad thing?' so it's more obvious.
Most other countries have a significant minority (and sometimes a majority) of the population who are just aching to kick out all the foreigners and go back to living in some decades old rose tinted fantasy.
Wanting to leave a trading bloc does not equate to holding those kind of extreme views.
"Wanting to leave a trading block" isn't really cited as a reason all that often, is it.
Anyway, that wasn't the point. Rather, a few posters were saying we shouldn't fall out with people because of their opinions and it's "intolerant" if you do, I was just trying to poke a hole in that notion.
But as you ask- no, I wouldn’t disassociate myself with someone who said those things. It would knock the shine off for sure but it wouldn’t necessarily undermine all the other good things about them.
Then that would be a convenient example of a perfectly fine "opinion" for us to agree to differ on. Because if one of my friends came out with something as abhorrent as that to my face then I'd never speak to them again.
steadfastly refuse to revise their opinion when it’s later demonstrated that it was, in fact, “wrongly,” then they’re probably heading in that direction.
But if their friends it wouldn't matter, you just shrug your shoulders and agree to disagree. Thats how most people get through the day. Intense political discussions that lead to fractured relationships aren't all that common, in my experience anyway. It's probably on here that I experience the most strident of opinions, and that's largly due to the anonymity offered by the internet.
Then that would be a convenient example of a perfectly fine “opinion” for us to agree to differ on. Because if one of my friends came out with something as abhorrent as that to my face then I’d never speak to them again.
It sounds like you act with the same zeal in real life as you do when closing threads on this forum. I guess at least you're consistent.
JP
You either learn to live with people who have different political views than you or you do the other.
Just have a war. Like on here but bigger.
I've lost my two bike mates from my office - they've moved to another office - we can't bore people to death talking bikes and crashing/injuries. Fortunately, politics aren't discussed in work, everyone is sick of it. My mates don't discuss it either.
I don't have a problem with Brexiteers per se. I might have a problem with someone who voted Brexit to kick out the foreigners or some other racist reason, but I'm good friends with a Brexiteer who genuinely feels it will enable us to make more equitable trade deals with developing nations.
@Jp Nice one 🤣
It’s like many of these faux controversial TV progs where someone spends a day or a week with a ‘trump supporter’ or a ‘fox hunter’ or a ‘ghastly rich tory’. I bet they seem terribly risqué at the production meeting amongst a likeminded bunch of freshly graduated urban woke-warriors.
Turns out after one awkward conversation, the rest of the stay passes in dull non-controversy where they eat together, laugh together, cry together, bond and form a ‘surprising’ relationship.
Turns out in real life, people are much greater than the sum of their Twitter bio’s!
But if their friends it wouldn’t matter, you just shrug your shoulders and agree to disagree. Thats how most people get through the day.
Except, someone clinging to racist / ignorant views despite clear evidence to the contrary probably has many other character "qualities" which would mean that if not exactly "falling out" with them per se would probably mean that I wouldn't be overly inclined to spend much time with them.
I have no shortage of friends, I don't need to put up with that sort of nonsense. So I don't. Life's too short.
It sounds like you act with the same zeal in real life as you do when closing threads on this forum. I guess at least you’re consistent.
Classy.
I spent years of my life putting up with people who were variously toxic just because they were "friends." My life has been improved no end by me cutting them out of it.
I don't have this problem as everyone I work with or socialise with voted remain.
This is not traditional left or right politics I'd much rather spend time with a moderate Tory than a delusional Corbynista. In fact I'm married to one and her political views have never been an issue between us.
The reason why Brexit is so divisive compared to normal politics is that there is an assumption by remainers that many of those that voted leave are xenophobes, racist, little Englanders who don't care about the damage that leaving the EU is doing and will do to our economy. I'm sure that this isn't true as there are definitely other reasons why some people voted leave but there's a bit guilt by association.
You can share the same views as Bill Cash, Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, Arran Banks, Morrissey, Toby Young, Katie Hopkins, Tim Matin, Julia Hartley-Brewer, the whole of the BNP and Britain First and my racist great Uncle John or you could decide that maybe I support the other side
I'm going back to my bubble of well-educated colleagues and echo-chamber Remainer friends.
there is an assumption by remainers that many of those that voted leave are xenophobes, racist, little Englanders who don’t care about the damage that leaving the EU is doing and will do to our economy.
But many of them demonstrably are.
The important thing though is to remember that, equally, many of them are not.
that there is an assumption by remainers that many of those that voted leave are xenophobes, racist, little Englanders who don’t care about the damage that leaving the EU is doing and will do to our economy
No, my assumption is that they are pigshit thick morons. With one exception.....
The only valid reason for voting Brexit is a last ditch protest vote against the ever increasing Londonisation of the country and the prevailing view amongst the powers that be that anything north or west of Reading is basically just there to collect drinking water for the capital. People who have very little and voted Brexit in the full knowledge that even that little will soon be taken away from them after Brexit. They voted Brexit as a last ditch attempt to get the SE government to take notice and give a shit about them. they know they will be ****ed by Brexit, but they are ****ed anyway.... What do they have to lose...
That, I can understand. Any other "reason" for voting Brexit is utter bollox.
Apart from hedge fund managers and others who stand to gain by ****ing over their fellow countrymen.
Guess who's just had a bottle of wine..
TBH, I spent a year in apartheid era South Africa as a teenager. I won’t claim to be a paragon of political correctness but I’ve a minority of acquaintances who seem to think that it’s okay to mock non-whites and who conflate FOM with terrorists who apparently want to blow things up.
Actually, I privately refer to them as “c***s” mainly because they are.
I guess then it comes down to proxy reasons why someone would passionately want to exit the world’s largest trading bloc. It’s funny, you can never get a fact checked explanation for it. I wonder why?
Accusations of racism and xenophobia are thrown at Leavers too easily, I agree.
Harder to argue against the charges of ignorance (often wilful), susceptibility to propaganda and general bloody-mindedness though.
I’m good friends with a Brexiteer who genuinely feels it will enable us to make more equitable trade deals with developing nations.
This comes under susceptibility to propaganda, I assume.
who genuinely feels it will enable us to make more equitable trade deals with developing nations.
That’s fine as long as it’s backed up by some data/analysis. I.e. what industries will suffer from a more distant EU relationship and which ones will benefit from trading with ehich markets they were unable to before? By how much? Is there a net benefit not just economically but over all the other things we get by being part of the EU thst we will now have to pay to do ourselves?
Part of my frustration is that just “feeling/believing” isn’t good enough for something that affects the country’s short and long term future significantly.
an assumption by remainers that many of those that voted leave are xenophobes, racist, little Englanders who don’t care about the damage that leaving the EU is doing and will do to our economy.
In my experience this is a proven assumption in SOME cases.
Me “Is there anything that would persuade you that Brexit isn’t worth it?”
“I don’t want foreigners voting on my laws bloke”: “Not really”.
Then you have all the “We didn’t vote for a deal, get out now people, on local as well as national social media”. The book (Factfulness) I’m reading now however warns me against assuming that this is representative without more data.
warns me against assuming that this is representative without more data.
I've long held that with any demographic it's the shouty minority which give the rest a bad name. I'm pretty sure, for instance, that the vast majority of brown people with beards aren't Islamic terrorists.
I’ve long held that with any demographic it’s the shouty minority which give the rest a bad name. I’m pretty sure, for instance, that the vast majority of brown people with beards aren’t Islamic terrorists.
Yet the reporting of isolated examples still leads people to believe that the EU (which is “them”, not “us”) make all our laws, constrain us from trading with the rest of the world and flood us with immigrant criminals who get a council house, benefits and free healthcare the day they arrive, prioritised over British people.
And in isolation, it's easy to understand how people might think that if their only source of news is the Daily Express. What grinds my gears is when presented with the truth, backed up with easily verifiable evidence, people double-down rather than going "oh, I didn't realise."
Like, there are many many things I'm ignorant of. I've made statements on this very forum over the years without stopping to check properly, been corrected by more knowledgeable people, then kicked myself and gone, "sorry, every day's a school day, I should've researched better before posting."
I think many of the shouty leave people on the Internet simply want to believe it.
I’m pretty sure, for instance, that the vast majority of brown people with beards aren’t Islamic terrorists.
Well I'm absolutely certain that Mr Farooq (Muslim, big beard) the consultant surgeon who looked after Mrs Egf during a bowel cancer 'episode' Isn't a terrorist otherwise he'd have popped her off shirley?
Anyway, this is just turning into another Brexit/EU, are you in or out thread.
Sort it out mods FFS.
It’s the dawning realisation that the general population are, on the whole, deeply unpleasant people.
It's all about openness. A lot of us on here, no matter whether we are right or left wing are more open to new experiences than the general population. Most of my friends are what I would call mercenary and adventurous, we don't have much loyalty to anyone or anything and we tend to view morality as relative. I have for example, an innate ability to fit in and connect to people no matter what country I am in, I am completely confident that if I was given a few grand and told to start a new life in Japan, I could - however because of this, I am biased and expect others to be like myself.
The vast majority of the population are not as adventurous or as open and are morally authoritarian. In a different era we would have been sailors or naval officers depending on our class, with women in various ports and the rest of the population would have never have been to the next town let alone abroad.
They aren't like us and they never will be, it's best just to ignore them and get on with forging a new world, time won't stop for them.