[Closed] 'Migrant men banned from German swimming pool'

Thecaptain: The pool ban is not based on race. Non-migrant members of the same ethnic/racial groups and origins as the migrants are not banned.

thecaptain - Member
Not every cyclist is a scofflaw and hooligan, ...

However, the amount of cyclists playing Russian roulette with cars are plentiful. No lights, dark clothing or with soft light due to low battery etc or awareness of drivers/cars ... we are lucky we do not see them under the car tires everyday.

The number of cyclists in the toon ... crikey ... no one scores full 10 points yet ... which means car drivers must be very aware of cyclists around them.

Not every cyclist is a scofflaw and hooligan, if cyclists didn't ride in groups there wouldn't be an issue. The best short-term solution is to ban cyclists. I'm confident something fairer will be found eventually.

More like if there was a particular nearby cycling club who's members kept harassing all the other cyclists from all the other different clubs when they all got together. As a short term solution, that cycling club was banned from future get togethers until some official explained to their members what the rules and code of conduct of meeting up was.

Cyclists are banned from riding in large groups in France, thecaptain. A group beyond a certain size (from memory 20 riders) is considered a danger to itself and other road users. A local club has been reminded of the fact by the local police and now splits its ride into groupettos.

They are saying that a specific group of males from the nearby asylum shelter are banned.

Non-migrant members of the same ethnic/racial groups and origins as the migrants are not banned.

This place 😆

Although migrants are banned from that pool if one migrant turned up they would have no trouble getting in.

Nice guesswork.

I've not read anything to suggest that's correct. Have you ?

All they are saying here is that the group of males from the nearby asylum shelter just have to behave accordingly and they will be let back in. That doesn't mean the swimming pool hates asylum seekers. Just that there is a behavior policy for entry.

No. There is a "no immigrants" policy for entry.

A behaviour policy would allow entry for everyone regardless of where they were from.

That's not what they currently have.

Nationality is not the same as race, Junkyard. If I discriminate against you because you're English in France it's not considered racist. It's xenophobic and nationalist but does not carry the same penalty as if I insulted you because of your skin colour irrespective of where you come from.

Junkyard - lazarus
So we pick a people from a country and we ban them and then we need to explain to some of you why its racist.

This place

Yes. If they are causing trouble regardless of who they are.

You can debate about race issue later on but in the meantime ban!

What's the big deal?

So we pick a people from a country and we ban them and then we need to explain to some of you why its racist.

Well, you could say that ALL of the refugees have lived their lives in a culture with values that we do not want to import into our society, and that the onus is on them to demonstrate that they can assimilate.

It's pretty amazing the contortions to which some posters will go to either pretend that this is not a racist policy, or that it is justified despite being racist. It is obviously and blatantly contrary to both CERD and EU law (which I assume are enshrined in German law, though I don't know the details of that).

Where do you live, Neal? I'm not trying to stalk, just intrigued as to which part of the planet you can live on and think that a group of misogynistic, aggressive, insulting males should not be banned from a swimming pool until measures can be taken to make sure female swimmers won't be harassed.

Edit: I'm a regular swimmer, I've swum three times this week which is typical. I swim and have swum in pools with a typically French demographic for over a quarter of a century. I know which groups cause trouble, the life guards know the groups who cause trouble, the CRS who get sent know which groups cause trouble, the women know which groups cause trouble. Solutions have been found and without any ban base on race, creed coulour or whatever peace know reigns. In fact there are no bans at all apart from surf shorts, just a lot of video cameras.

Edukator, your comments above regarding race vs nationality are wrong. End of story. The law is not what you think it is.

For your education:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_on_the_Elimination_of_All_Forms_of_Racial_Discrimination#Definition_of_.22racial_discrimination.22

Article 1 of the Convention defines "racial discrimination" as:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life...

Note how "race" is defined here in a broad but reasonable way so as to avoid the typically pedantic nitpickings of people such as yourself.

thecaptain - Member

It's pretty amazing the contortions to which some posters will go to either pretend that this is not a racist policy, or that it is justified despite being racist. It is obviously and blatantly contrary to both CERD and EU law (which I assume are enshrined in German law, though I don't know the details of that).

Very simple. If the society does not like particular people why still go there?

edit: Saudi Arabia? Anyone? Care to explain to them?

So what would be the correct way to deal with this problem?

For the hand wringers on here, do you honestly believe, that the mass uncontrolled migration of thousands of young men, from a culture that teaches completely different things about the status and role of women, particularly what sort of woman would attend a mixed swimming pool, that there isn't going to be any problems?

Article 1 of the Convention defines "racial discrimination" as:

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life...

How does that apply to immigration policy? Is it "racial discrimination" to restrict immigration from certain countries?

The correct way is to ban and/or otherwise punish the offenders, and a bit of public education might help too. Isn't this blindingly obvious?

I should have said "insulted" in both parts, the captain.

DrJ, there is no right to enter or live in a country of your choice, so there is no breach of CERD in applying a nationality condition to restrict this.

thecaptain - Member
The correct way is to ban and/or otherwise punish the offenders, and a bit of public education might help too. Isn't this blindingly obvious?

The correct way is Not even starting the Merkel stooopid open door welcome policy.

Too late ... they are screwed!

And if there if discrimination based on nationality is illegal I can take a few banks to court. Thank you HSBC for not discriminating on the basis of nationality.

Or the French/British governments, because they both apply fixed radar fines to their own nationals but not those from the other country. Or... there are so many institutionalised examples of discrimation based on country of origin even within the EU. You'll pay 50 cents more than me to get in my local swimming pool BTW.

The correct way is to ban and/or otherwise punish the offenders, and a bit of public education might help too. Isn't this blindingly obvious?

Which is what they have done/are doing.

Maybe the Germans have a more proportionate and realistic view of the type of discrimination that the CERD was designed to avoid.

There may be a historic reason why they are able retain a sense of proportion about what 'discrimination' amounts to

If I discriminate against you because you're English in France it's not considered racist. It's xenophobic and nationalist but does not carry the same penalty as if I insulted you because of your skin colour irrespective of where you come from

Then they are wrong - if this is true- as has been shown by another poster. .
FWIW I am not english.

I hate all french people they are all worthless scum
I dont employ anyone Irish
Do i really need to explain why these are racist? Honestly?

a bit of public education might help too.

So you tell them that their fathers, Imans and teachers who have taught them women are inferior to men, that if a women cannot dress modestly and causes lustful feelings in men, they get what they deserve, are wrong and that's not quite how we do it in 21st Century Europe?

That will work. 🙄

Gotta say after the way a bunch of Immigrants leered and commented about my wife, with me present (10 against me) I'd cheerfully boil the scum in acid.

If your of fighting age with no family to protect why aren't you home trying to fight for your country?

Junkyard - lazarus
Then they are wrong - if this is true- as has been shown by another poster. .

[b]FWIW I am not english.[/b]

You're not? Really? [b]So what are you?[/b] Be brave. 😆

Everyone knows who I am now your turn.

I hate all french people they are all worthless scum
I dont employ anyone Irish
Do i really need to explain why these are racist? Honestly?

Crikey ... are those your true feelings?

Explain yourself.

Ming the Merciless - Member
If your of fighting age with no family to protect why aren't you home trying to fight for your country?

That's exactly my sentiment ...

Yes, you do Junkyard. Especially to communities who suffer and get shot at because of the colour of their skin. If I report you to the Gendarmes for calling me "worthless French scum" on TV they'll tell me it's insult, and they're not interested. If you were black and called me "worthless white scum" on TV, they'd take my complaint very seriously (I hope).

[img] [/img]

Replace the word "French" with "black/white/jewish/arab" and it becomes racist. As it is it's just nationalist.

Where do you live, Neal? I'm not trying to stalk, just intrigued as to which part of the planet you can live on and think that a group of misogynistic, aggressive, insulting males should not be banned from a swimming pool until measures can be taken to make sure female swimmers won't be harassed.

Where I live is irrelevant, I've lived in few places around Europe over the last 25 years though.

And the rest of your question is disingenuous, I'm [b]not[/b] saying that "misogynistic, aggressive, insulting males" shouldn't be banned. (As I'm sure you are aware)

I'm saying that a blanket ban on an entire group based on their ethnicity is wrong.

And I'm honestly astounded that I'll probably have to defend that idea against someone who thinks that I'm wrong.

Ffs its 2016 not 1930 🙄

I'm saying that a blanket ban on an entire group based on their ethnicity is wrong.

It's not actually their ethnicity that is banned but their residency status. As all Germans have ID cards this something that is easily checked.

It's not based on their ethnicity. Ethnic Syrians, Turks, Moroccans, Algerians, Afghans etc. who don't belong to migrant groups are not banned.

If The only way you can defend it is petty Semantics then you are abviously struggling and it's clearly wrong 🙄

Told you Angela Merkel is stooopid ...

See before her open door policy there was not even such discussion but now they need to deal so many problems.

If that's not stooopid what is? 😆

Yes, you do Junkyard.

petty Semantics

It is not petty semantics. There does not appear to be a major problem with established communities but the recent arrival of thousands of young men who are seeking asylum.

To confuse this with racism is dangerous.

Not one of the hand wringers has suggested a viable solution for this.

petty Semantics

Read back Neal, paying particular attention to your own contributions to this thread.

Is being stooopid better or worse than being a zombie maggot?

Junkyard - lazarus
FWIW I am not english.

zippykona - Member
Is being stooopid better or worse than being a zombie maggot?

That is the question. 😆

Look carefully at the definitions you will see that ...

@Edukator, yes well aware of the issue with "Roma" and travellers in French towns. As we are in Paris we see many shanty tiwns / dwellings around the Periph. My French in-laws always say how lucky UK is to be an Island.

For those arguing that the pool ban is racist just remember it applies to men only. Immigrant women and children are still welcome. Also,it is a ban on immigtants / asylum seekers independent of their nationaility

As we are on this thread rather the others two other interetsing stories today;

German Finance Minister has suggested all EU countries (potentially including the Uk) should raise fuel duty to pay for improved border security.

Of 5,500 failed asylum seekers from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco who should have been deported from Germnay in the first 6 months of 2015 only 56 have left. Partly I understand as their host countries don't want them back I assume as they came from Syria

Come now Junkyard, Great Britain discriminates on the basis of nationality every day. I can enter the UK because I have a French ID card, but all of those people in the jungle in Calais are stuck in the jungle because they don't have nationalities that allow them automatic entry into the UK. That's not racism.

Not one of the hand wringers has suggested a viable solution for this.

Ban/punish people who break rules/laws.

Leave people alone that don't.

Treat people as individuals they are not "all the same"

(And if you find yourself saying that about people, It's fairly possible you are some type of bigot)

Read back Neal, paying particular attention to your own contributions to this thread.

If you have a point to make, make it.

For those arguing that the pool ban is racist just remember it applies to men only

I'm saying that a blanket ban on an entire group based on their ethnicity is wrong.

Would a blanket ban based on sex be wrong?

I can think of plenty of places that have women only pool/gym sessions, it's happened for along time, and is clearly not viewed to be sexist (except maybe by some nutters, but I am fairly sure that courts have upheld it)

Is banning a small segment of the community based on the behaviour of a notable minority amongst it and the impact it has on female participation and wellbeing any worse than banning an entire sex based on much the same thing?

@neal, we are not suggesting the pool ban is the medium term solution but the mayor of thentown / pool manager was ina real bind as what to do NOW.

There is huge fristration at a local and regional level in Germany as towns and cities have to manage the fall out from Merkels idiotic and poorly thought out statement. Another German mayor sent a bus load of immigrants (who agreed to go) to Berlin for Merkel to deal with as they had roommfor no more.

chewkw - Member

Junkyard - lazarus
FWIW I am not english.

Hey Junkyard so what are you?

You have not answered my question.

Over to you! 😛

is it if you are sexist at the same time as being racist then you wont really be being either?

No.