+1I bet her kids have a bloody splendid time growing up with a mum like that
but if mum needs a helmet so does baby, otherwise carry on.
BruceWee - I've seen people skiing with kids in back packs - and quite frankly think they are crazy: if they realised how out of control lots of skiers are they wouldn't want to take the risk of 100 kg of solid person hitting their child at 30 mph - they might be amazing themselves but there are plenty of crazies around.
GrahamS - I'm not a fan of unnecessary health and safety and lack of risk taking, but I think it needs a little more than a helmet on the child. The "sling" the kid is in is not designed for the sort of shock loads you might expect in a rock climbing fall. Mummy stops, baby doesn't. Mummy ends up upside down (seen it happen) baby sling probably not designed for that either.
Rubber Buccanneer - yes driving to the crag is inherently dangerous, but it would be misleading to suggest that top roping is inherently safe. It relies on the correct use of all the gear, correct set up of the top anchor, and that no gear fails. It also demands that the belayer is competent. I've known a couple of competent climbers get quite badly injured in top roped falls - possibly due to complacency, but is that the same complacency that pops a helmet on your own head but not on the toddlers?
MF - According to the CV on her blog she has already done the SPA training but still needs to do her assessment... ...still she's listed her employer on there, and in a crowded "market place" I can't imagine too many average parents will be that keen to send their little darlings into her care - probably not the best career move!
However clearly the biggest risk is that the belayer has probably not got any sunscreen on!
MF - According to the CV on her blog she has already done the SPA training but still needs to do her assessment... ...still she's listed her employer on there, and in a crowded "market place" I can't imagine too many average parents will be that keen to send their little darlings into her care - probably not the best career move!
So she should [b]know[/b] that the child should be wearing a helmet surely? I have never been on any kind of organised outdoor activity where the organisers would let me climb/via ferrata/abseil/gorge walk/scramble or whatever if I didn't put a helmet on.
This puts it the most succinctly for me...
[b]but if mum needs a helmet so does baby, otherwise carry on.[/b]
:Attention whore. No more no less:
I agree
Question is, would you give the mum [i]your[/i] helmet?
f they realised how out of control lots of skiers are they wouldn't want to take the risk of 100 kg of solid person hitting their child at 30 mph
Same goes for cars though. Much more so in fact.
We can't all just stay indoors to avoid that risk though.
not designed for the sort of shock loads you might expect in a rock climbing fall. Mummy stops, baby doesn't.
I don't know enough about rock climbing to comment on that really. She says "you don’t fall any further than where you came off" so doesn't seem like there would be massive shocks.
Mummy ends up upside down (seen it happen) baby sling probably not designed for that either.
Yeah that's a risk I suppose. I'm assuming she's had the sense to secure the toddler pretty well.
Typical daily Mail, made up indignation and someone looking for her 15 mins of fame.
There is pretty much zero risk to the kid, but there seems no point taking a kid that young with her as it will not appreciate what's happening.
Question is, would you give the mum your helmet?
only if i hadn't used it in a while 🙂
Typical daily Mail, made up indignation and someone looking for her 15 mins of fame.
Again what makes you think she would submit her story to the Daily Mail so they could savage her suitability as a mother and no doubt cause her a lot of stress??
She blogged about it on her own blog. The DM just saw the chance for a good "unfit mother" story to bring in some clicks.
there seems no point taking a kid that young with her as it will not appreciate what's happening.
Kid is two according to the story. Speaking as a father of a 21 month old, two is plenty old enough to appreciate what's happening!
I doubt the baby carrier would fail in a fall. It isn't part of the system, like a harness. It's no more likely to pop off than her bra. Top-roping, if done correctly, doesn't involve more than a slump onto the rope.
Those pictures you posted do show the child-carrier from behind. It doesn't even have shoulder straps to secure the kid downwards. If she does somehow contrive to semi-invert in a fall, then it's all a bit precarious in terms of keeping the toddler inside the carrier.
So mainly, no helmet, but I wouldn't be happy seeing a kid suspended at height in one of those.
Earlier I spilt some hot coffee. If it wasn't for my heat proof mittens I might have seriously scalded my pinkie.
You should have been wearing trousers.
Those pictures you posted do show the child-carrier from behind. It doesn't even have shoulder straps to secure the kid downwards. If she does somehow contrive to semi-invert in a fall, then it's all a bit precarious in terms of keeping the toddler inside the carrier.
Well yes, inversion from top rope falls is ever so common.
Didn't say it was common. But I've seen it happen on more than one occasion. Being top-heavy doesn't make it less likely, either.
Fair enough, but IMO she is more likely to injure the kid by falling over in the car park while she is strapped to her back.
Fulltime Student. Studying what?
I'm sure it wasn't her best decision not to stick a helmet on the kid but it's the mothers choice to do what she likes, plenty of mothers out there abuse their kids and we never hear about it. This is just sensationalism based on a picture ripped from someones blog, then they've spoken to her about it......horse = bolted
and I see plenty of kids tearing about here on bikes with no helmet.....what's the difference?
I'm sure I smell burning, i think Mumsnet just caught fire
I'm not suggesting that we do - just that 'people ski with kids on their back' is not a great defence here.Same goes for cars though. Much more so in fact.
We can't all just stay indoors to avoid that risk though.
mmm... I'm not sure she's had any big unexpected falls then. To climb comfortably the rope won't be perfectly tight - so even if there was no stretch in the rope you can expect to fall a foot or so, unless the belayer was expecting you to fall off, had the rope tight and doesn't move at all when the load is applied. The rope is designed to stretch, 10% is typically quoted as the amount to expect for an adult falling on the rope (it can be more is really serious fall - but unlikely on a top rope). If the crag is 20m high, then rope stretch could be 2m+ on top of the 'slack' drop. Would most people jump off a 6ft high wall with a kid on their back?I don't know enough about rock climbing to comment on that really. She says "you don’t fall any further than where you came off" so doesn't seem like there would be massive shocks.
If she doesn't have the sense to put a helmet on the kid or not post contraversial pictures on the net when you are trying to build your career then I wouldn't assume so - I've never known a toddler in a back pack / sling actually be that secure - when the little one is a little older and climbing for herself best practice is normally that she wears a full body harness - made with proper metal buckles and safety rated webbing, not the plastic clips and velcro normally used in kid carriers.Yeah that's a risk I suppose. I'm assuming she's had the sense to secure the toddler pretty well.
Fulltime Student. Studying what?
Outdoor education. She may have fallen asleep during some of the lectures.
Anyhow, I've noticed that she appears to be a fan of 'Eat Pray Love', quoting sections admiringly on her blog. And so is beyond redemption.
It's only right that parents protect themselves when out with kids. If something happens who's going to feed them?
.
..
.[img] 
[/img]
If the crag is 20m high, then rope stretch could be 2m+ on top of the 'slack' drop. Would most people jump off a 6ft high wall with a kid on their back?
maths/physics fail
Wonder what kind of grade that climb is, and what her limit is without the toddler on her back. Also, is she climbing bare foot in the pic?
If she's climbing anywhere near her limit then she's a muppet.
All the climbs on that bit of cliff are short, slabby and easy (Diff/Vdiff).
I like her tatt.
One for the bank. 😀
I read this thread with interest as the father of two young kids (3 & 4)
I have never climbed so cannot comment on the safety aspect however to me it seems a crazy and potentially risky stunt, especially if she is not that experienced. My wife has climbed, when I showed her the pic her first retort was "crazy". I love to take my kids outdoors, walking, pedalling, they even climb some trees! BUT, in terms I can relate to no way would I ever strap my kid to my back and take him/her out biking with me. Helmet or no helmet 😉
Having done (a small) amount of climbing, I've been dropped by a perfectly competent belayer (he was staring at a girls bum in hotpants who'd just started climbing at the rope next to mine) which, although inexcusable shows that shit does indeed happen. I fell about 15ft but landed on my feet. It hurt. I've also asked for slack to make a move, failed and spun around to fall, although a small amount of drop, fairly hard backwards into the wall.
Not sure I'd do it with my daughter on my back, she'll be taught risks and be encouraged to weigh them up and take her own when she's ready.
However, wearing a helmet when your kid doesnt is just plain stupid and deserves a tarring and feathering.
If she's climbing anywhere near her limit then she's a muppet.
From her blog it is a crag that that she teaches kids to climb on.
http://aimevenhigher.blogspot.com/2011/08/crag-of-week_22.html
from GrahamS's link someone left this comment:
oh my gosh, what a beautiful photo!! You are amazing and that picture of you with your daughter on your back is way incredible. You go, Mama!! 😀
So not everyone hates her.......also posted back in October of last year so obviously one of the Daily Mail "we hate everything because we just need something to moan about" brigade found it by accident then dobbed her in to stir up some vitriol that was missing in their lives
Live and let live I say (sometimes)
Edit: Also, she's a single mum trying to do the best by her daughter, however misguided people might think she's being, she's not stuffing the kid full of McDonalds and second hand smoke (as far as we know)
nacho BUT, in terms I can relate to no way would I ever strap my kid to my back and take him/her out biking with me. Helmet or no helmet
But many people do the world over without any issues.
If she is climbing well within her ability as it would appear how big is the real risk?
he's not stuffing the kid full of McDonalds and second hand smoke (as far as we know)
Well said. I see considerably worse parenting every time I wander into town at lunchtime, some of which is quite upsetting (junkie/alcoholic parents, battered mums, obese 5 year olds in pushchairs being wheeled into the chip shop for lunch) 🙁
My assessment is made from years of climbing and cycling, albeit without my kids strapped to my back or in tow. I have come a lot closer to being killed / seriously injured on the road by inconsiderate driving by others, as opposed to top roping a climb.
I accept that's your opinion on this, and I'm not likely to change it. However I've also done plenty of climbing, carrying a kiddy in a backpack (not combining the two), and pulling a kid in a trailer. I've never had a single incident where I felt at all in danger whilst pulling a trailer on the road. I have had a few near misses when on my own and a couple of hits, but still nothing which would have resulted in injury for a child in a trailer I was towing - when towing though car drivers give you far more space and consideration. The risk is extremely low.
OTOH I have seen people get flipped round when being top roped (I suspect it's happened to me but can't remember what safety I've been using when it has). I've also experienced considerable drops when top roping, despite having an attentive belayer. That's despite having spent far less time climbing than towing a kiddy trailer. Neither of which is a good situation with a kiddy in a backpack - in fact the kiddy in the backpack will increase the likelihood of getting spun round. Also a kiddy in a backpack significantly raises your CofG, increasing the possibility of inversion to a level where it's a real risk. The sit harness isn't designed to take that load distribution, the kiddy backpack isn't designed to take the loading from coming off, even on a top rope. Like you I've never come close to being seriously injured or killed top roping, but the point you're missing is that there are plenty of circumstances which are totally safe when climbing solo which would result in injury to a kiddy in a backpack - and I'd be very surprised if you hadn't witnessed some.
As for comparing the risk to driving - well maybe, but whilst taking a kiddy in a car may not be essential, it's far more useful than taking a kiddy climbing in a backpack, which is totally unnecessary.
she'll be taught risks and be encouraged to weigh them up and take her own when she's ready.
This. Her kid isn't taking risks - she's putting it at risk. I plan on taking my son climbing soon (not sure if the local wall will let him in at 5 or the minimum is 6), but that's completely different to what she's doing.
Any rucksack I climbed with had a top lid and strap. No idea why anyone would think it was remotely possible that something would fall out without a lid. When in backpacks like hers my kids would sometimes have a paddy and arch their backs, pushing against my lower back and lifting themselves quite far out of the pack. Of course she's such an earth mother her kids is perfectly well trained. my kids grew up with risk but there are lines not to cross. The fact that it's an easy climb means injury from a fall is more likely. Not much to hit when you fall off most E6's.
TJ - I made the helmet comment tongue in cheek 😉 It's all about individual opinions and your own risk assessment so I can't say whether she is right or wrong especially as a non climber. As for biking with a kid on a backpack, I mean't MTB'ing. I fall off. Regularly. I don't want to squash my child or have him/her fall and get a serious injury and have to live with it. That's my choice and belief. When ours were younger we wouldn't take them out in the trailer unless on the road unless there was an adult (normally me) behind the trailer. Like GrahamS said she could be doing far worse things but to me it's too dangerous to consider. They don't cycle on the road yet (not taken cycling proficiency) and there are enough canal paths / cycle routes / forst trails for me to decide it's not worth taking that risk.
EDIT
I have just been reminded by my wife that I did have my daughter in a "backpack" on a fireroad so I'm guilty of that as well! And my little ones always wear helmets 😆 😉
But many people do the world over [b]without any issues[/b].
Eh? You're saying no kid ever gets badly hurt in a third world country by being strapped to a parent who has an accident? Wow, the array of stats at your fingertips is impressive. Either that or you're making it up.
DH skiing on a gentle quiet slope + kid - maybe
XC sking + kid - yes
Cycling + kid in trailer - yes
Cycling on busy road + kid in trailer - no
Light scrambling with kid in carrier - yes
Rock climbing with kid in fabric papoose - no
I can't see there's any point in exposing the kid to that not inconsiderable risk, tbh. She'd probably enjoy a day's walk much better, climbing isn't much of a spectator sport, esp for a 2 year old.
Why no crash helmet for kiddie then?
Molgrips
But many people do the world over without any issues.
Does not equal
no kid ever gets badly hurt in a third world country by being strapped to a parent who has an accident?
I don't have kids, so this is a purely objective observation.
Disregarding my earlier posts, what is the benefit to risk ratio of this little adventure?
I suspect the kid gains nothing, but is subjected to at least some degree of risk.
So I'm going to put this in my "low risk, but completely unnecessary" category.
Take the kid to see the waves crashing into the beach at the bottom and all the birds flying around, surely that's far more entertaining/enlightening for the kid and less risk?
What do I know though, I do pretty much every extreme sport there is and my body is a mess as a result of my incompetence and the occasional unavoidable accident, yet I still continue 🙂
What do I know though, I do pretty much every extreme sport there is and my body is a mess as a result of my incompetence and the occasional unavoidable accident, yet I still continue
we all/most do similar pf, it's just that she's dragging a toddler along
aye, that's sort of what I was getting at Dave, despite the fact that we mitigate the risks we expose ourselves to as far as possible, something invariably goes wrong from time to time.
There's a 99% chance that no harm will ever come to that kid as a result of her mum climbing, probably more chance of her getting hit by a car, but (despite the fact I do believe it's low risk) I don't know if I could live with myself if anything happened to my child after an accident whilst I was participating in a sport with inherent risks. I think that's the key thing isn't it? SHE is climbing, the kid gains nothing and has no choice.
I really hope that if/when I have kids that I'll be walking up my favourite munros in decent weather with junior strapped to my back, taking in the wonders of the great outdoors, but I doubt I'll be climbing with them to be honest (i'm not the most elegant climber, and my ice skills make even the most crazed axe murderer look controlled at times 🙂 )
having given it further though, I think the climbing may be an unnecessary part of the "I want my kid to be part of everything" lifestyle she wants to enjoy. Just can't seem to see what purpose/benefit it offers to either her or the kid.
A few random thoughts, Daily Mail kneejerking aside.
It's hard to tell from the picture how severe the climb is. It could be a short slab which is about as technical as your average stepladder, or a long difficult slog. I'm inclined to think it's the former, especially as it's reported that she uses that route for coaching, so the overall 'risk' is perhaps not as high as might first appear.
If it's risky enough for her to be wearing a lid, then it's risky enough that the kid should have one. Kids' skulls are made out of blancmange, so I'd say that they should've erred on the side of caution here. The chances of falling debris is probably as close to nil as makes no odds, but if she does have an 'off' she could easily spin with her back to the face.
If there is a risk of falling rock / gear, then her belayer is at at least as much risk as they are. Again, if it merits her wearing a lid then he should have one too. It [i]looks[/i] like he's using some sort of traditional belay device rather than something auto-locking like a Gri-Gri, in which case if he gets brained then the system becomes free-running. That's probably the greatest risk of the lot, TBH.
Is the kid's harness rated for anything other than strolling through the park? Again, it's not clear from the pictures, and a top-rope fall is unlikely to be extreme unless there's a mechanical failure, but nontheless there's a slight chance that it could be shock-loaded in a way that it wasn't designed to cope with and thus could fail. Pretty unlikely though.
Summary; perhaps a little irresponsible, but probably not as much as first appears.
Molgrips
But many people do the world over without any issues.Does not equal
no kid ever gets badly hurt in a third world country by being strapped to a parent who has an accident?
So what was your post about? You were implying riding with your kids on your body was inherently safe, because many people (apparently) do it without having an accident. Is that what you meant?
Simply what I said molgrips. It was a response to the the poster above me. Highlighting that the absolutism of his position had no bearing in any reasonable assessment of risk
Peterfile - will you put your children in a car?
I don't know if I could live with myself if anything happened to my child after an accident whilst I was participating in a [s]sport [/s]activity with inherent risks
will you put your children in a car?
Yes, Sergeant Howie
Just some hippy new age mum by the looks of it, thinking it's cool for her kid to be a free agent or whatever.
Irresponsible.
The scary thing to me is the weight of her kid on her back makes it quite likely that if she did slip and hang on the rope she would invert in her harness. Then either the kid falls out or she can't get the right way up again.
