[Closed] Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

Well we've not wandered too far off topic it seems! This entire process of religious investigation is one I consider to be healthy, Since taking the initial steps towards considering my faith in a manner that is both honest and personal to me I have been feeling a lot more positive about making changes for "the good", I don't doubt that every man is prone to evil acts and history proves that absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Bible appears to provide numerous examples of such, to believe someone with Faith who is follower of a Religion to be exempt from evil is foolish to say the least, everyone is but human.

I am following this path, taking this journey, what ever you wish to call it, in order to hopefully discover in me something that I have long believed to exist but was more than willing to ignore, belittle or denounce.

I'm not sure where this will lead me but so far I'm enjoying the process and feeling the benefit both emotionally & spiritually.

oh and you can stay the **** away from me with those bloody fingerbells you mincers!!! I'm off to read some more of the old fire n brimstone! its, erm, biblical! 😀

I think even quantum physicists struggle with this but what exactly do you think they have found that proves god. Confusion?

nothing that i've been made aware of... jsut wanted to take the opportunity to point out that a lot of atheists are as stuck in their veiws as the religious people they then mock.

BS he is a scientist he would accept the evidence if it existed. Does it?

i'm sure he would...a very clever scientist he is too and i've enjoyed everything i've read by him for that reason. and again, no i dont think there is any evidence to say evolution doesnt exist.

i must have really written my post badly 🙁

sorry MrNutt, back to the OP.. good luck 🙂

anyone trying to change themselves for the better has my respect.

Mr Nutt,

Sorry for the question, but do you think that by having faith in a religion (for want of a better description), that your luck may change or that you may find a meaning for your life?

I don't want to stop you from reading the bible, but I'm not sure you will find the answers there. For one, it is not an easy book to read and as so many scholars have found, it is open to huge misinterpretation. If you want to read and try and understand it, go to one of the Christian bookshops and get some of the guides that are available. They at least cut through the Thees and Thous and Therefores and try to make it understandable in plain English.

Also for balance, try Dawkins 'The God Dellusion'. I also found that heavy going and needed a dictionary to look up some of the words he used.

I don't mind belles on my finger...

SoouthernYeti I just thought the UU might be a safe haven for the non-atheist/agnostic humanist.

The Bible is a good history of the accumulated wisdom of the Levantine people but it was essentialy edited by a series of men over a large period of time and often influenced by the politics of the time.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that religion brings we'd have no civilisation.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that civilisation brings we'd have no religion.

I would say that expressions of spirituality are a reliable sign that civilisation has advanced to a point at which basic needs are met and people can start worrying about less important stuff than the next meal.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that religion brings we'd have no civilisation.

I'm sorry, but religion does not bring unity. That comment is so misguided.

Religion has brought nothing but disunity, from Herod to the present day.

The fear that religion instils in people maybe, but not religion.

[i]but religion does not bring unity[/i]
+ eleventy.

All the major religions are exclusive, belying their roots as a tribal based societal control method rather than the word of a supernatural being.

Hope y'all choose the right one......

I though Darc and crikey made good points.
It brings unity wioth tribal neighbours as you are now brothers and share the same dad. yes this bigger entity eventually clashes with another civilisation but it unifies huge numbers first.

Can any Westerner be truly religious? Is it not written in the Bible (the new bit that we all like not the old fire and brimstone bit) that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle?

Now I'm no expert on Theology but I think jeebus was being pretty literal here based on him living a frugal life and all that. I think he did mean that to all intents and purposes rich people are essentially wearing trainers viz a viz gods policy re heavenly admissions.

Now I understand that 90% of the worlds wealth is in the US and Western Europe etc and therefore we here are all, what I think it's fair to say, jeebus would have regarded as rich men. On that basis I think to be a proper christian with a good chance of getting into heaven anyone claiming a strong faith should be punting their goods, sorting out a local charity with the proceeds and heading off to do unpaid work for the rest of their lives.

Isn't it a bit hypocrital to claim faith when no-one really goes for the most basic tennets of the faith they claim to subscribe to?

[i]Isn't it a bit hypocrital to claim faith when no-one really goes for the most basic tennets of the faith they claim to subscribe to?[/i]

You're not meant to take it literally, apparently....

That's why Anglicans don't stone people.

Yes it simply refers to any manufacturers of dairy products I expect.

Now I understand that 90% of the worlds wealth is in the US and Western Europe etc

I thought we were all in trillions of debt, which if the scales are to balance, we must owe to someone - the spiritual East perhaps ?

I'm sorry, but religion does not bring unity. That comment is so misguided.

Going back further a similar thing can be argued with the Egyptian, Hittite and other early civilisations.

Would civilisation have occurred without religion? It's difficult to argue as archaeologists see religion in society from the earliest times.

[i]Would civilisation have occurred without religion?[/i]

As above, civilisation is required way before religion.

Civilisation isn't about roads and temples, it's about having enough to eat and shelter and water. Then, when you've actually got time to worry about 'what's it all about, y'know, really' religion can develop.

Man invented God through fear of the unexplained, as it could not accept that a persons life on this earth (with all the memories of events which happened during their lifetime) gets suddenly terminated, and your body just rots in the ground for worms to feed on. Bit of an anti-climax really.

So they invented the concept of a 'soul', which goes onto a 'better place'.

So they invented the concept of a 'soul', which goes onto a 'better place'.

Or so that you could be subject to an eternity of punishment if you didn't play by 'this life' rules?

Monkeeknutz Wins, Surfer erm... second

Good luck MrNutt, changing a long held viewpoint can be tough.

If you want suggestions then try a couple of different translations of the bible as well. Sometimes just seeing something said in a slightly different way can help.

If you go for IanB's suggestion of 'The Shack' then also be prepared just to put it down. It's not my cup of tea either but again it is another way of looking at things that can change your picture of faith.

Folks here have separated faith and religion - good idea. Religion can help but it can clearly get in the way as well. Try different 'flavours'. I know this can be a cue for people to relive some of their bad experiences in these places but there are also good ones. Finding a community of like minded folks isn't necessary but it can help and it doesn't need to be a church.

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with

I think you need to remember that quantum theory is not an explanation of reality. It is a statistical methodology for making predictions. If an experiment takes two measurements at two different times, it can say what happens at t2 given t1, but it can say nothing about what happens in between t1 and t2.

It has of course provide devastatingly useful as a tool, but in terms of explanatory powers of what reality actually is, it says nothing.

I refer you to tonights episode of the Simpsons.. although I have to concede that the coincidence of this programme being screened at the same time as this topic being discussed may well be an act of god... or dog.. or something

mavisto i'm not exploring this for personal gain, more an insight to if faith is the right thing for me, more specifically the Christian faith, it may be a result of my schooling although it was never forced down our throats the CoE was part of it, that said my father is an athiest and my mother agnostic, neither my younger brother or sister practice any form of faith let alone religion. I am doing this for me, i'm talking about it because i think it helps to hear different view points 🙂

Oh well. Here we are again.

The Bible and other ancient texts were written by people who were trying to explain what they experienced around them, who were not yet advanced enough to know what germs were and thought plagues were a sign that "god" was angry with them. Some variants thought that sacrificing people would do the trick, but it didn't seem to make any difference, so they killed more and more people and still it didn't make any difference.

The obvious reason for this never occurred to them.

Personally, I see absolutely no reason to try and find meaning in a bunch of fairy tales made up ny ignorant bronze-age tribes who throught the sun was a personality, rather than a continuous nuclear reaction in space.

I was surprised to find that it took until page four, for the unread and muddle-headed amongst us to attack Richard Dawkins with the sort of personal piss-take which they always complain about if it is directed at themselves.

Obviously, with regard to arguably the most significant author of the new century so far, they have no argument worth a damn.

Mr Nutt - stop wasting your time. Either that, or get back to us when you find any evidence of religion's claims being true.

You will have overturned thousands of years of failure by the religious to do this, and your nobel prize will be waiting.

PS: By the way, Nutt old boy -regarding your chosen cult - you do know that there is no actual evidence that the alleged Nazarene ever existed and is nothing more than a story that someone made up, don't you?

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Type 3 error, Woppit

Clarify?

Woppit those are some pretty heart felt claims there mate, is that from "the God delusion", a book which i also own but i am yet to read, i figure i'd best come to my own conclusions before closing off my viewpoint, do you agree? Is this a more sensible option, clearly faith and related religions have had thousands of critics over the years but still it persists, that said i am not going to rule out the madness of crowds or that people love a good yarn, but "what if" is as valid a point as "what isnt", no? Or should one just fall behind the more fashionable line?

Personally, I'm not even a little bit superstitious and have lived the last forty years of my life as a evangelical humanist/atheist and fully intend to die as one.

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

MrNutt - Member

Woppit those are some pretty heart felt claims there mate, is that from "the God delusion", a book which i also own but i am yet to read,

Read it.

no time to read all the posts but here's a couple of quotes I love (whether relevant or not !)

People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves without wondering."

St. Augustine

and : the gold we seek

Eventually we grow weary of seeking treasures outside
ourselves and we begin to look within. There we discover
that the gold we sought, we already are.

Alan Cohen

Not here <---- ❓ middle path ❓ ----> not here

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

Nice one. 😀

Good luck mrnutt with your endevour
I've developed over the years from a forced christian to a stout athiest, by forced i mean from family and friends which as a youngster knowing nothing else (Sunday school)

Religion has killed or murdered probably millions over the centuries, and for what, some invisible bieng nobody has seen or heard, its all fiction as far as I'm concerned
That aside, I do respect the values which it installs, love,family, care etc
Each to their own I say and respect otherwise

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

Personally I'd have taken the money (you have to be of a certain age for this one!!)

Interesting outlook on faith and religion this morning on the BBC News Pages.

I can't forgive them, I keep praying that God will curse them”

Esmael Mangudadatu Governor of Maguindanao

CharlieMungus : schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

now that, was divine. 😉

Back on the Dawkins front, I can't find my copy as I'm redecorating and have half my books in boxes. Maybe that's a blessing, or a curse, or maybe its just I have a bad memory!

Can I ask, does he give undeniable proof that God does not exist or is it purely academic conjecture? What motivates him? Does he build a case against Faith or Religion or both?

What is his suggested alternative as all I tend to hear of him is argument and condemnation, Does his "way" contain anything positive or does he just set out to debunk established Religious structures?

At this moment I cannot agree that the Bible is not a good book, it is, a very interesting read. It's also quite an amazing feat of humanity, this book has been around for at least 1500 years, edited, translated, changed and evolved, maybe not always for the good maybe not always for the bad but it is one hell of an achievement for mankind to have not only carried on but also for so many to have believed in wholeheartedly.

I'm not ready to jump upon any God bothering bandwagon just yet nor do I seek to, like I say this is the investigation of my own faith, I do believe I have a faith and I will continue to study this, right now its both an interesting, enjoyable and personally helpful process. Long may it continue 🙂

Here's a question...

Dawkin's claims to know that God does not exist,

Yet I receive help and guidance from God and therefore know God does exist,

Is this not the same as the argument for wearing a helmet whilst riding a bike? Who knows if wearing the helmet would save you? it could do more damage, but to wear one or not wear one is a personal choice, the arguments for and against are out there, I guess its up to each individual as to which side they believe, no?

Personally sometimes I wear one, other times I don't, but I never make a point of telling folk they should or shouldn't wear one, do you?

Can I ask, does he give undeniable proof that God does not exist...

No he does not, and here's the thing he never has. He states his position as being fairly certain that there is no god but as scientist he recongises that it is impossible to prove a negative therefore he does entertain the posibility that he may be wrong. All he asks for is proof.

His main issue seems to be with those who deny science (evolution especially) and reason because of their religious faith. He also has an issue with indoctinating children into a "faith".

Absolute certainty is something enjoyed by those of a religious persuasion, not by those with a scientific one.

ok, that sounds reasonable, I'm not of ether a creationist or evolutionary standpoint just yet but then...

Are there any evolutionary fossils showing the development of man from what he came from before? is this not easily possible to demonstrate?

read "the greatest show on earth" by dawkins... evolution questions answered better than i think STW could 🙂

evolution questions answered better than i think STW could

Surley that can't be. With all of the well informed and balanced personalities on this forum we could end all of the worlds ills...opps, sorry, forgot for a moment this is STW.

Fair point PC. Its just a shame that despite talking what seems like a lot of sense Dawkins comes across as a bit of a twunt.

Everyone seems to say this but I honestly don't see it. A lot of people say Dawkins is 'shrill' and 'screaming atheism'.

I read the God Delusion. It is simply a discussion regarding religion and its place in the world. All he says is that if he was given evidence that a god exists then he'd believe.

I'm sort-of buddhist myself and what he says makes an awful lot of sense.

The only thing I thing gets up peoples' noses is the fact that he reckons that religion should not have any special consideration in the world. I agree. Live and let live, just don't push any dogma onto me from your religion and we'll both be happy.

After all the most faithful religious person is atheist in all other faiths apart from their own...

so is there unequivocal proof that we evolved from the seas or elsewhere? or is there still that old "missing link" issue?

There is no God. Prove to me one shred of evidence that there is...

Case closed!

It really is laughable that in this day and age people still believe in this superstitious nonsense. Supposedly intelligent people some of them are too...