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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
Good on the pilots for refusing and defecting. Very grim times
I blame Thatcher.
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That's a bit unfair Woppit. Whilst Thatcher was indeed an ardent supporter of tyrannical dictatorships in the Middle East. And her son Mark did make £12 million selling arms to the Saudi totalitarian regime when Mummy was Prime Minister. She was simply helping promote the arms industry and defending "vital US interests".
I think we're about to find out whether supporting tyrannical dictatorships was a good idea or not.
i suppose it does leave the question, what will be the replacement. much of the Arab world is run by dictators/monarchies.
Previous events led to the overthrow of the Shah and that obviously went down well with the US, what happens if the revolution spreads to Saudi?
what happens [s]if[/s] [b]when[/b] the revolution spreads to Saudi?
Previous events led to the overthrow of the Shah and that obviously went down well with the US, what happens if the revolution spreads to Saudi?
Bicycle sales go up?
much of the Arab world is run by dictators/monarchies.
Yep, I've also noticed the lack of "liberal democracies" in the region.
Funnily enough though, there is no region [i]anywhere[/i] in the world where the US has more direct influence.........so I wonder how that happened ?
And to give an example of just how awesome US influence is in the region :
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/11/iraq.usa1 ]The most expensive "no" in history[/url]
Saying "no" the US can be very very expensive.
not wanting to be flippant about such a serious matter, but...
it sounds like "Rock The Casbah" come to life 😉
The Morroccan King has answered the request to "give up some of his powers". He said "No", apparently.
"Cromwell, Cromwell. All I hear is "Cromwell""...
5thElefant - MemberPrevious events led to the overthrow of the Shah and that obviously went down well with the US, what happens if the revolution spreads to Saudi?
Bicycle sales go up?
That may well be one of the funniest responses I have read on STW. 😀
Revolution, in all of it's glory! wonder who's behind it and what they want ❓
The whole world is getting shafted, it's just that most people are too distracted with all the day to day crap, to realize it!
If things improve for these people, it's a good thing, if they don't, it isn't!
Wonder if they will hand abdel baset al megrahi back now?
On a serious note though, I wonder if we are witnessing the start of WW3? They cant kick all the governments out of these countries and expect them to all run sweetly.
All very interesting but at the same time very worrying for the next few years.
On a serious note though, I wonder if we are witnessing the start of WW3? They cant kick all the governments out of these countries and expect them to all run sweetly.
one thing I've always noticed is that the guys at the top rarely volunteer for martyrdom missions
who had the (obviously distasteful and culturally ignorant) joke about heaven running out of virgins and there being cut backs 😉
The danger seems to be that they may blow themselves up as their sectarian hatred makes "The Troubles" look restrained which the long slow drip drip of sectarian suicide bombings in Iraq etc
I imagine the average person wants what everyone wants, a nice comfortable life with opportunities for the kids etc. Notice how these revolutions are being driven by the "twitter/ SMS/ internet" generation not the mosques etc
Err, Egypt will run fine as will Tunisia and Morrocco.
Libya is going to be a real pit.
The main reason Iraq has been mired in shit goes back to the established Police/Army infrastructure being torn down.
No one will trust the Libyan security forces now...after this. The country will become a war zone for upto a Decade.
That is.....until America steps in to secure the oil thus getting one back on BP who won a contract with Gadafi....
hora, why will egypt, morroco and Tunisia be fine? These are all countries which have minorities that might see now as the only chance for what they want.
Moroccans are watching very carefully what's happening in Libya and elsewhere and people are talking about a pan Arab democratic revolt. Things were very tense here yesterday in Marrakech, Macdonalds got ransacked and for hours crowds were protesting and seemed to be unopposed by the police although there was a police presence in Gmaa el Fna this morning. We live in interesting times.
Doesn't Dave have arms manufacturers there with him on his democracy tour? It's a good chance for future stakeholders to get their orders in now.
Some horrendous pictures floating about on twitter showing mutilated bodies, more than small arms in use there.
Thats of course if they are real - they do look very real though.
As already mentioned at a very crass level this is Rock the Casbah.
Or Rock el Casbah
Serious level - good on the defecting pilots; US very quiet apart from Hilary; Israel very quiet about all the revolutions (Tunis, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen, Morocco). Massive oil rich power vacuum to be filled... no wonder US & Israel quiet. Will they go western democracy or more likely fundamentailst religous state? (History would suggest fundamentalist state route - think fall of Shah of Iran...)
UAE will not be involved in 'revolution'; certain western govts have too much to lose if it does.
Better the devil you know sometimes... 😐
History would suggest fundamentalist state route - think fall of Shah of Iran
different world to 1979 now
No one will trust the Libyan security forces now...after this. The country will become a war zone for upto a Decade.
can't understand why they did it. In Egypt they came out of it respectably.
Will they go western democracy or more likely fundamentailst religous state?
Fundamentalist religious states like Saudi Arabia ? ........ I doubt it. More likely illiberal democracies imo. For the short term future anyway. And almost certainly with a cooler attitude towards the US/West.....if the people have any say - which they undoubtedly will.
And almost certainly with a cooler attitude towards the US/West.....if the people have any say - which they undoubtedly will
why? half the male population <30 is expected to be in boats halfway across the Med by the end of the year
is Twitter islamic?
do these countries not need cash to replace the money fleeced off them, who are they going to sell oil too? (other than the chinese and indians etc)
I imagine any "powers" foriegn policy is in tatters in the area as they won't have a clue who to talk to.
just thoughts
More likely illiberal democracies
isn't this how you would describe the UK?
isn't this how you would describe the UK?
The UK was certainly an illiberal democracy before it became a liberal democracy. And the liberties and rights of individuals weren't simply "granted".......they had to be fought for - invariably for many years and in the face of huge opposition.
But today the UK can be described as a liberal democracy. Something which she can afford to allow - as power, wealth, and influence, are all strictly controlled and guaranteed.
do these countries not need cash to replace the money fleeced off them, who are they going to sell oil too?
They will sell oil to the US and the West - of course they will. Venezuela sells most of its oil to the US, but they are hardly "buddies".
Who said the UK is a Democracy?
Are you sure we are a true democracy?
Well, on election day I could vote for whoever I wanted without fear of any recriminations. I could also stand to be elected myself if I so desired, so I think that yes, the UK is a democracy
Maybe you are right however we are still ruled by a Sovereignty (you may say its only a figurehead) however don't our armed/security services serve her and pledge an allegiance?
In addition how come ex Prime Ministers/Ministers can become so rich?
Lucrative 'speaking tours'?
Reads to me as networking/paid for services rendered and buying someones contacts.
Recently we read of the ex Somerset council Chief Executive who was paid £600 last year. How? Hes there to serve the people.
Then we come to our boys. Sent out to die on soil that will never see freedom. Whilst defence companies prosper.
Why do we support regimes that do not have democracy? Is it called turning a blind eye?
Whilst defence companies prosper.
Going back to Soveriengty of a different type, doesn't Brussels tell us to jump? Who makes these decisions? Did we vote for the decision makers in Brussels?
Where was out referendum that Labour promised us?
I may be incorrect on multipoints on the above however it my view, we are not a Democracy.
That is.....until America steps in to secure the oil thus getting one back on BP who won a contract with Gadafi....
BP are an American company.
I may be incorrect on multipoints on the above however it my view, we are not a Democracy.
Maybe? But it's probably the closest you'll get to democracy in the UK...
Better the devil you know sometimes...
Better for who? Do you mean we're safer if other people are oppressed? Are you OK with that? Would you personally do a bit of oppression on our behalf?
we are still ruled by a Sovereignty
We aren't. Any pledges of alliegiance are just using the Queen as a symbol. Like the flag in the USA. If the Queen tried to actually do anything it'd be over-ruled and I think there are even laws covering this dating back to Queen Vic.
Why do we support regimes that do not have democracy?
Because democracy is not a synonym for 'good'. And the world has a lot of problems that can't be solved with free and fair elections, as Bush and Blair found out to our cost. Were you not watching?
We are a democracy. We are not perfect, and this is not the Culture, but it's as good as it gets currently. Our govt and its policies will change if we vote one way or the other - democracy.
Again, democratic does not necessarily mean progressive, enlightened, philanthropic or any of that stuff.
Why the constant updates on the Princes's?
Why the public holiday for a Prince's wedding?
Why the pledge of allegiance to the crown?
Why can't we have a Republic?
Better for who? Do you mean we're safer if other people are oppressed? Are you OK with that? Would you personally do a bit of oppression on our behalf?
We live a life of unprecedented luxury in the west. If we equally distributed wealth amongst the whole world's population (which is where your questions are heading), I wonder what [i]our[/i] standard of living would be like?
If we equally distributed wealth amongst the whole world's population (which is where your questions are heading), I wonder what our standard of living would be like?
My guess is almost all of us would be better off given the vast wealth held by so very very few.
No one will trust the Libyan security forces now...after this. The country will become a war zone for upto a Decade.That is.....until America steps in to secure the oil
Sounds good to me.
You seems to be leaning towards communism rather than democratic there.
Anyway:
Why the constant updates on the Princes's?
'cos it sells newspaper & magazines etc as a large part of the population seem to want to know about them
Why the public holiday for a Prince's wedding?
Why not?
Why the pledge of allegiance to the crown?
Well, as the 'head of state' that would seem appropriate, but as we all know the monarchy doesn't actually run the country anymore. In fact the pledge actually goes on to say: 'I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen'
Why can't we have a Republic?
We can, if someone takes out the royals!
We live a life of unprecedented luxury in the west
I disagree.
In a country where elderly people can't afford to heat their houses all winter.
I also can't remember wafting into work in my Veryron this morning nor can I remember my bank balance looking red.....
I disagree.In a country where elderly people can't afford to heat their houses all winter.
I also can't remember wafting into work in my Veryron this morning nor can I remember my bank balance looking red.....
I suspect the average chinese or indian pensioner would think our poorest wrinklies were doing just fine.
[url= http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2007/10/07/average_earnings_worldwide/ ]This suggests...[/url] the average income world wide is $7,000 (the world's average income - total world income divided by total number of people).
So... an end to all oppression worldwide means your income will drop to £4,600 p/a.
Recently we read of the ex Somerset council Chief Executive who was paid £600 last year. How? Hes there to serve the people.
Did he deliver pizza or something? If he did he needs a quicker moped if that's all he earned.
Stop and have a think are you really trying to claim that life in the 5 th richest country in the world is some sort of hardship ? Do you need pictures of ghettos, refugees, starving people, the third world,shanty towns, disease , dying children from malnutrition and treatable diseases to counter your point?
We live a life of unprecedented luxury in the westI disagree.
Here type in your income and see how rich you are !
http://www.globalrichlist.com/
The top 1% is 30K pa FWIW
Think anyone who disagrees about the "life of unprecedented luxury" most likely doesn't really understand what it means. Yes some pensioners can't afford to heat their houses. But they have houses, and heating. [i]That's[/i] unprecedented luxury.