Its not just the Labour party, its also the PSOE in Spain, and the Democrats in the US, all sharing a similar situation.
In my opinion:
1. Conservative parties shifted very much to the center, forcing leftist parties into more extreme political views so that they are differentiated.
2. 35% of Labour voted for Brexit, voters which Labour may be too scared to alienate. Also, wasn't Corbyn a bit of an eurosceptic?
3.Middle-class and upper-class liberal message does not mix well with the working class "fight for our rights" message, add a little bit of pandering to minorities and you get a very very strange mix.
However its not like the other side is doing much better in terms of leadership, Conservative have to reconcilate within the party the fact that their money making machine (London), may take a huge hit after Brexit, however this is what 60% of their voter base wanted. The only thing going for them, is that they are predictable-other than in Brexit.
Why should we if it's a valid comparison of what is going on?
If it was any other nation out there we would see UN peace keepers and and resolutions that would be enforced.
If those claiming anti Semitic language would like to join in and help stop some of the crimes being committed we would have a positive step forward rather than arguing while people are actually dying
Or are you confusing anti semitism with anti zionism?
many in the jewish community would have you believe they are one and the same
but it looks to me that the state of Israel is guilty of a war crime, just like, for instance, the British (also a signatory), during the Mau Mau Emergency in the fifties.
So is your point that the Israelis don't mind being accused of war crimes as long as it's not nazi war crimes? That would seem a bit silly to me. If you're a war cirminal, you don't get to choose the nature of the criticism against you.
He then asks those at the meeting to raise their hands if they had witnessed anti-Semitism in the Labour party - and said he was "amazed" when some said they had.
Awkward. 🙂
For people who spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet I can't believe you find it so difficult to find evidence. Labour against Antisemitism has reported 1,200 members for disciplinary proceedings for antisemitism and have a backlog of a further 1,000 cases that they are working on. @GnasherJew details on Twitter details 64 cases of Labour officials making antisemitic comments.
As for the IHRA it merely says the describing the Israel's formation as a racist endeavour is antisemitic and comparing Israeli actions to the Nazis, who after all murdered 6 million of their kin, as antsemitic. This does not in anyway preclude criticism of Israel or its policies, we are after all blessed with a language with one of the biggest vocabularies in the world so there are plenty of other ways to do it.
The fundamental problem is Corbyn is dim and not intellectually agile enough to realise that many of those he has shared platforms with for years and years are anti semitic and he takes an criticism of them as a personal attack as he is thin skinned as well. McDonnell is much smarter and robust.
For people who spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet I can’t believe you find it so difficult to find it so difficult to find evidence. Labour against Antisemitism has reported 1,200 members for disciplinary proceedings for antisemitism and have a backlog of a further 1,000 cases that they are working on. @GnasherJew details on Twitter details 64 cases of Labour officials making antisemitic comments.
I asked for impartial and independently verified comments sorry, the number reported tells us just that, doesn't tell us what they said etc. The twitter feed again is one side of it.
The fundamental problem is Corbyn is dim and not intellectually agile enough to realise that many of those he has shared platforms with for years and years are anti semitic and he takes an criticism of them as a personal attack as he is thin skinned as well.
He has got himself into a corner on it, but it's also being blown way out of proportion.
I assume you also have the list of comments/statements that are anti Islamic?
So is your point that the Israelis don’t mind being accused of war crimes as long as it’s not nazi war crimes?
No, thats not my point at all.
I'm saying that sometimes anti-Semites compare Israel's actions to the Nazis in order the denigrate the Jewish people and minimize the crimes committed by the Nazis.
I think the Israeli state, like many others, including the one I am a citizen of, commits crimes, we can and should be vocal about that without exception.
As for the IHRA it merely says the describing the Israel’s formation as a racist endeavour is antisemitic and comparing Israeli actions to the Nazis, who after all murdered 6 million of their kin, as antsemitic
Anti-Semitism. The belief or behavior hostile toward Jews just because they are Jewish
If I compare Israel's action to the Nazi's (and clearly some of the actions are comparable) that does not mean I am being hostile to Jews, I am being hostile to the Israeli government just as when I am hostile toward teh UK government does not mean I am being hostile to the people that live in the country (from many races)
Having said that, I wouldn't stick to my guns about it as it is pedantry that would not help my cause against a media that will use anything they can to try and cause damage.
I’m saying that sometimes anti-Semites compare Israel’s actions to the Nazis in order the denigrate the Jewish people and minimize the crimes committed by the Nazis.
and sometimes people don't have that intent at all, bit bad to start branding them all as Anti Semites isn't it.
Having said that, I wouldn’t stick to my guns about it as it is pedantry that would not help my cause against a media that will use anything they can to try and cause damage.
this!
From the IHRA definition ; Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
It surprises me that some in the labour party can’t understand how doing this is an attempt to make the crimes committed by the Nazis some how less bad than they actually were. It is a ‘yes the Nazis were bad but look the Jews are bad as well’ type argument.
You do realise that this is in the Labour code of conduct, right?
I guess not - which illustrates the problem. The press present a uniform view of the situation which is at variance with the facts, and people who don't have time to check the background accept it as truth. How can Corbyn or anyone else respond in this situation?
In fact ninfan has it right (there, I said it) - Trump tells lies but they are effective in that they have his opponents running round in circles refuting them, meanwhile he has moved on to something else.
Why do you think the overt racist nature of many in the Tories is not the centre of press attention in the same way?
and sometimes people don’t have that intent at all, bit bad to start branding them all as Anti Semites isn’t it.
Agreed, but there is the flips side to this - clearly some people try to stifle criticism of Israel by calling anyone who does so an anti-semite, using the Nazi comparison plays right into their hands. There are alternative comparisons which work just as well.
Really? What is a better comparison to the conditions in Gaza - imprisonment of an entire people, subject to random attacks by a well armed military and kept short of medicines and food than the Warsaw ghetto?
Those who don't think this is a political attack on Corbyn please answer
"why is the overt racism and islamophobia in the tory party not the subject of such press attention?" Its a far bigger issue
The Jewish Socialists' Group expresses its serious concern at the rise of antisemitism, especially under extreme right wing governments in central and Eastern Europe, in America under Donald Trump’s Presidency and here in Britain under Theresa May’s premiership. The recent extensive survey by the highly respected Jewish Policy Research confirmed that the main repository of antisemitic views in Britain is among supporters of the Conservative Party and UKIP.
These accusations have come from the unrepresentative Board of Deputies and the unelected, self-proclaimed “Jewish Leadership Council”, two bodies dominated by supporters of the Tory Party.
As Helen Lewis says today in that Tory rag the New Statesman
"There is nothing left to say on Labour’s anti-Semitism row. If you don’t think there is a problem by this point, then surely nothing can change your mind. In fact, you are the problem."
Anyway I will leave you to your little bubble which is frankly a cesspit of bigotry, but hey, we don’t link to the Daily Mail.
Does that mean it's time to move on to the Tory party then? Be good for them to take a long hard look at their various Anti problems really.
So mefty - no answer to the questions I raised? No comment on the piece quoted? Just resort to name calling?
“why is the overt racism and islamophobia in the tory party not the subject of such press attention?” Its a far bigger issue
As I pointed out earlier, it was in the press for a day a few months ago but then quickly forgotten about. Maybe May did a deal with Dacre to stop doing it.
Imagine an alternative world when all the papers were anti tory - the amount of stories they could run about how the government is screwing the poor, disadvantaged etc,. yet doing a, b and c for the wealthy
They would never need to reach for the made up terrorist sympathiser shit.
I can't see this thread going off the rails at all...
But of course there is no problem there
<p class="story-body__introduction">Theresa May should publicly acknowledge that Islamophobia is a problem in the Conservative Party, former party chairman Baroness Warsi has said.</p>
Parts of the party had been "in denial" about the issue and a "clear statement" was needed about what was to be done to tackle it, she told the BBC.The Muslim Council of Britain has urged the Tories to launch an independent inquiry into alleged Islamophobia.
A Tory spokesman said it took all incidents of Islamophobia seriously.
The Muslim Council of Britain has repeatedly demanded an investigation, and says there are now "more than weekly incidents" involving Tory candidates and representatives.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44311092
Racism and islamophobia is far more of an issue in the tory party than antisemitism is in labour. Indeed antisemitism in the tory party is worse than in the labour party
Racism and islamophobia is far more of an issue in the tory party than antisemitism is in labour. Indeed antisemitism in the tory party is worse than in the labour party
You might as well add misogyny while your at it.
I think a thing that helps to keep it in context, is that when Corbyn celebrated Passover with a jewish group that the Board of Deputies doesn't like, the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews immediately accused that jewish group of being antisemites.
That's not some lunatic fringe, that's the head of the organisation that's usually considered to be the best spokespeople for British jewry. They're the organisation that the media always turns to for comment. And they accuse fellow jews of being antisemites, purely because it's a convenient weapon.
And yet we're still supposed to take it seriously when they say it about anyone else.
Antisemitism is on the rise- is the real threat the Labour party? Hardly. Part of the problem is that people see racial, ethnic and religious hatred as being somehow compartmentalised, as if an antisemite in the Labour party is different from an islamophobe in UKIP or a racist prime minister who as home secretary presided over the Windrush scandal. But of course it's not, it's all just different heads on the same snake but people who're rightly horrified by one head snuggle up to another because it's biting someone else right now.
When it comes right down to it, if it really properly kicks off and goes this way, as well it might, who are you going to run to for help? The right? Good luck with that.
Just resort to name calling?
There are a number of posters on here who reject the widely accepted IHRA definition of antisemitism because they feel the need to compare Israeli actions to the Nazis. By that definition, that constituents antisemitism and therefore they are essentially self identifying as bigots. In some cases this is hardly news as they have plenty of form.
Anyway I am going to toddle off for a bit as this site pollutes the mind.
tj, everyone expects the Tories to be racist, it's a dog bites man story.
How weak mefty. You do like calling people bigots on no evidence or even against the evidence. Ever looked in a mirror?
The captain. Its not really that. Its the dominance of the tory press.
No doubt there's some truth in that too. But that doesn't excuse the Labour party.
no - but the point is that this is a politically motivated attack on Corbyn led by the right wing press. Racism, anti-Semitism is a far greater issue in the tory party. Labour is attempting to do something about the issues, Tories are not.;
Surely this thread proves that asking any group of people to talk about antisemitism, results in a) some of them saying something antisemitic, either unintentionally or on purpose, and b) some people who are happy to label others as antisemites.
As a group of people, I don't think the labour party are any more antisemetic than any other. Why on earth would they be? However, you might get more "false-positives" because one might expect a greater proportion of corduroy-wearing lefties to be critical of Israel, which might be expressed in a way that leaves the door open (rightly or wrongly) to an accusation of antisemitism.
However, I think the real damage this has done is to show that JC (and the Labour Party) can't successfully manage the situation. Quite the opposite, he/they seem to almost be going out of their way to make it worse.
Personally, I do think that there are some strong parallels between the actions of Israel to that of Nazi Germany, however, if I was in the public eye, I should be intelligent enough to choose a different analogy
Bastfink - its all been phrased in a " have you stopped beating your wife yet?" way - which means there is simply nothing the labour party can do to stop the attacks as no answer will satisfy
^^^^this x 1000
Bugger - my reply was meant to apply to Batfink !😄
Bastfink – its all been phrased in a ” have you stopped beating your wife yet?” way – which means there is simply nothing the labour party can do to stop the attacks as no answer will satisfy
Yeah I quite agree - I think that this has been orchestrated by the Tory press. However, I do think that the Labour Party could have acted sooner and more decisively to prevent it snowballing.
If some body asked you ”have you stopped beating your wife yet?” - could you really not answer that in a way that made clear that you absolutely didn't beat your wife?!?! Have you considered a career in politics? 🙂
Oh dear, in the poo again - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45027582
I really struggle to see what is wrong with what Corbyns done wrong here.
There are a number of posters on here who reject the widely accepted IHRA definition of antisemitism because they feel the need to compare Israeli actions to the Nazis.
Or just reserve the right to. To say you can't sends a clear message that this group and their actions are protected in some way.
But imagine how the people pushing this feel that this is centre of attention, helping to divert criticism and to nullify genuine concerns.
If you do not think this is a direct attack that cares very little for the feelings of actual people but is motivated for political gain then you are very gullible .
Why in the poo, are we saying that any survivor of the camps who does not agree with the definition is wrong? It's not even a story in the real world. What offends you the most about it?
Why on earth would they be? However, you might get more “false-positives” because one might expect a greater proportion of corduroy-wearing lefties to be critical of Israel,
The corduroy wearing lefties aren't the issue. Labour has very strong Muslim support. This wee graph show how various religions voted last time around.
No prizes for guessing which religion that giant orange spike is...And like it as not, some of those voters are fairly and squarely anti-Israel. The problem Corbyn has is that many of the Muslim voters that come out in large numbers are more than happy for him to compare Israel to the Nazi party, and Labour cannot afford to loose that vote.
Anything he does to effect that vote is going to have a big impact next time around. Anything he does to placate the Jewish vote, is nothing by comparison (Labour supporting Jews are a small minority already). Which is why the Labour executive is ummming and ahhing about it all, in politics numbers matter...
It might be a right wing newspaper plot, but it's a very very canny one (and it hits the Labour party pretty hard, because it's an actual issue for them). Support for Islam amongst the UK voters is pretty low right now, but support for Israel is still pretty high, and no-one wants to be an anti Semite, by labelling the Labour party as such, Muslim voters are put off because some of them are very happy for the Labour party to be anti Israel, non muslim voters are put of as they don't want to be seen voting for a party with anti Semitic views and Jews won't vote for a party that contains a group of folk who're so anti Israel. It's the perfect plot.
Labour can't hit back with "Your Muslim problem is just as bad" as it's whataboutry.
Corbyn's deflection and non action is making it all twice as bad...all he need do to make the problem go away
1. apologise (He has sort of done that this morning)
2. adopt the IHAR recommendations in full (adjusting them was such a stupid idea, whoever though of that needs sacking)
3. prevent Williamson from standing on the NEC.
job jobed.
from that article, JC hosted an even at the House of Commons on Holocaust Memorial Day :
At the 2010 event in the Commons, Jewish Auschwitz survivor and anti-Zionist Hajo Meyer gave a talk entitled <i>The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes</i>.
Mr Meyer, who died in 2014 aged 90, compared Israeli policy to the Nazi regime.
The Times said that Palestinian activist Haidar Eid also addressed the meeting, saying: "The world was absolutely wrong to think that Nazism was defeated in 1945.
"Nazism has won because it has finally managed to Nazify the consciousness of its own victims."
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with what the speakers were saying - its certainly provocative. In JCs defence, he probably had absolutely no idea that me may one day be in a position where people were actually paying any attention to what he was doing 🙂
Does there exist a Britain First equivalent for anti-semites?
Or do things get overlapped when we start to look at whtie supremacists?
One things thing is for sure they tend to be way over to the right.
@ Mike - I don't see where I said it offends me, please feel free to highlight my offence! It is relevant to the conversation though isn't it?
Nickc: so you think that Labour are being deliberately sh*t at countering the antisemitism accusations (and even encouraging them?), because you think appearing to be anti-Israel boosts the Muslim vote?
I can understand your argument, but I just don't see it myself - this all just feels like slightly sh*t politicians being unable to articulate their objection to Israeli govenment actions/policy, without saying something accidentally antisemitic..... particularly with lots of people eager to jump on anything that could be possibly construed as such.
Incompetence rather than malice, is my assessment.
